Tenant put 38 holes in a room - take their security deposit?
Seattle, WA · Member since 2019 · 15 posts · 19 votes
Tenant put 38 holes in a room - take their security deposit?
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San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6yAren't you going to re-key anyway? Why charge a tenant for losing a key when you're going to re-key anyway? C'mon. I really don't respect landlords who look for any reason to keep security deposit money.
I also think it's unrealistic and unfair to expect tenants to never hang anything on the walls. This is their home while they rent it. In my opinion it's normal wear and tear. If they're small holes, just get out some putty or whatever, fill in the holes and run the paint roller over the wall. Don't you expect to have to do that anyway?
So, no. I never charged tenants for small holes in the wall or for keys. The only reason I collected keys was because it is a legal formality that means they have relinquished their tenancy. Then, the keys just became garbage.
Don't be a scrooge. Eventually, you'll end up with a tenant willing to take you to small claims court for things like this, and depending on where you live, you can get dinged by the judge 2 or 3 times the amount of the security deposit. For something like this, it's just not worth it. If they left the place otherwise clean and empty, consider yourself blessed.
57 Replies
- Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes6y
Hire a contractor to repair, deduct from the deposit, refund the remainder or charge the balance owed.
The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews - Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
@Justin Bautista
Define small. And yes, keep the deposit and hire out the fix. Pay for the fix with deposit. Return whatever remainder is.
- 6yPeter TverdovBusiness MemberDeveloper · New Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
Originally posted by @Nathan Gesner:
Hire a contractor to repair, deduct from the deposit, refund the remainder or charge the balance owed.
/ thread
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Aren't you going to re-key anyway? Why charge a tenant for losing a key when you're going to re-key anyway? C'mon. I really don't respect landlords who look for any reason to keep security deposit money.
I also think it's unrealistic and unfair to expect tenants to never hang anything on the walls. This is their home while they rent it. In my opinion it's normal wear and tear. If they're small holes, just get out some putty or whatever, fill in the holes and run the paint roller over the wall. Don't you expect to have to do that anyway?
So, no. I never charged tenants for small holes in the wall or for keys. The only reason I collected keys was because it is a legal formality that means they have relinquished their tenancy. Then, the keys just became garbage.
Don't be a scrooge. Eventually, you'll end up with a tenant willing to take you to small claims court for things like this, and depending on where you live, you can get dinged by the judge 2 or 3 times the amount of the security deposit. For something like this, it's just not worth it. If they left the place otherwise clean and empty, consider yourself blessed.
- Seattle, WA · Member since 2019 · 15 posts · 19 votes6y
@Sue K. I’m a first time landlord that’s why I’m asking for a consult. I definitely want to be fair to the tenant, but I also want to be fair to me. I mean 38 holes in a room is quite a lot, and a lot of it are concentrated and next to each other. It looked like she put a hole, didn’t look quite right then put another hole half a cm next to it. Now it looks run-down and something the next renter might complain about. The key is not a big deal to me but the holes are obvious. Would you still give the full refund?
- Member since 2020 · 65 posts · 13 votes6y
In my opinion, 38 holes is too much. I would vote for getting it repaired and charging for it. I would also take lots of time-stamped pictures before doing the repairs. I use a phone app that prints time stamps on pictures. Hopefully you also have pictures from the move-in inspection to compare with.
- San Jose, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Justin Bautista:
@Sue K. I’m a first time landlord that’s why I’m asking for a consult. I definitely want to be fair to the tenant, but I also want to be fair to me. I mean 38 holes in a room is quite a lot, and a lot of it are concentrated and next to each other. It looked like she put a hole, didn’t look quite right then put another hole half a cm next to it. Now it looks run-down and something the next renter might complain about. The key is not a big deal to me but the holes are obvious. Would you still give the full refund?
Yes, I would give a full refund. We always painted after every tenant anyway, usually from about eye level to the floor. If you always use the same color, you'll have paint on hand and it doesn't take much time at all. And new applicants will have that nice fresh paint smell when they view it.
Just look on YouTube for filling holes in drywall.
What I suggest you do, is remember when you were a tenant. Hopefully, you were a tenant in the past, so you can relate. Imagine you moved into a place and made it your home. I have put lots of tiny holes in walls when I was trying to figure out how best to hang a piece of artwork. Imagine your tenants being nice people who are making their apartment/house their home.
If you think of tenants as your enemy, you'll hate being a landlord. Tenants don't put tiny holes into the wall in order to be evil and make your life awful. They are doing normal tenant stuff. Hanging artwork. If they happen to not be great at figuring out where they want the painting and put holes in the wall, because they don't have a friend/spouse to hold the painting here or there for them, that's how they're going to have to do it.
I do this, so I totally relate. I don't have someone I can call to hold a picture here, no there, no higher, no lower. I end up with several holes.
Stop counting holes. Just be glad it wasn't worse. If this is the worst your tenant did, count yourself lucky. You will just have to let some stuff slide and not sweat it, or you will hate being a landlord.
So, look on YouTube, see how easy it is to fill in holes in drywall, get some drywall mud (it's really cheap and will last you forever), get out the paint roller and just paint those walls. I suggest you decide on a type of paint and color, so after your next tenant all you have to do is paint from eye level down.
Don't you remember cleaning really well, doing everything a landlord asked you to do and ending up with the landlord keeping a bunch of your deposit anyway? Don't be that guy. You'll feel better about yourself.
You'll know it when there is real damage you should charge them for. If you nitpick every single move-out, it will make you an unhappy person.
- Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
It will take 10 minutes to repair and paint the holes if they are just for pictures. I guess it depends on what your state law says, and how big the holes are
but little nail holes are usually considered wear and tear - Rental Property Investor · Concord, GA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
38? I've fixed literally hundreds of thumbtack size holes in a wall. I just can't imagine what they were there for (no, not a dart board) Just went over the walls with a tape knife and joint compound. This was a new acquisition so no one to charge. Just today we had a vacancy on a house and that home has holes in the walls the size of softballs. (multiple ones) There will definitely be some security deposit deductions from that house. Plus one room of carpet is ruined beyond saving, blinds are broken/missing, screens knocked off the house, window sills torn loose and the list goes on. Pretty disappointed about it. We thought it would be a two day turnover but it'll probably be 3 weeks.
- 6yTheresa HarrisPro MemberMember since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
@Justin Bautista 38 holes in the wall for one room is a lot. I'd fill them and do touch ups (assuming you have the same paint) and charge her a nominal fee. If you were going to re-key anyhow, I would not charge her for the lost key.
- 6yBjorn AhlbladPro MemberInvestor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
I tell my tenants to be reasonable about the number of holes in the wall, none in any woodwork, and please do not fix the holes or touch up; we will do that no charge. I have hole filler that is the same color as the wall paint and just use a tiny amount. So if we are not painting the wall fixing the little holes is easy and if we are painting it is the same.
- Member since 2019 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
Next time, give them a picture hanging kit from the dollar store. Tell them “if you use this you will NEVER get a deduction for hanging pictures. If you don’t and crank up the stupid and use tape, you will likely peel paint & paper and then you’re paying for mudding, sanding, primer and paint, you pick.”
There are two things in my welcome kit that I tell my staff are not optional: picture hanging kit; felt pads for chair legs. Everything else is an optional item and they are not to return to the store or think twice about it if they forget it.
- Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes6y
@Justin Bautista While 38 fist sized holes in a wall would be a lot, I would say 38 picture hook holes are inconsequential. Buy ready mix spackle from HD and a plastic 2" putty knife, run the spackle across the holes. If you clean it off with the knife well, there's no sanding to be done and the hardest thing you have to do, worst case scenario, is paint. A contractor will probably count his lucky stars he gets to charge you $100 to do the same.
You posed a great question. Another way to look at it is whether you think a judge would say you did the right thing by charging her? Remember you could eat the return of double the SD. Re write your lease so the tenant has the responsibility to fix in future.
We're all here to learn. Except for the ones that are here to teach.
- Member since 2018 · 10 posts · 4 votes6yThere are holes and there are HOLES. If tiny holes they can be mudded in a matter of seconds, when dry sanded in a matter of seconds, and you are painting anyway I would think. If they were a decent tenant don't be nitpicky. The key is a non-issue IMHO. You are very lucky if that is all you can complain about!
- 6yJohn UnderwoodPro MemberInvestor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
Small nail holes where they hung pictures? Then No. These are normal wear and tear. A little dry wall mud and a fresh coat of paint would be normal.
Bigger holes than that then yes keep what is needed to cover above normal wear and tear and document it.
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes6y
Picture holes = normal wear and tear.
You have to re-key between every tenant.
- Investor · Bayside, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
I normally repaint the place after tenant moveout, and nowadays I use professional painters. If it's holes the size of thumbtacks, hanging pictures, they just spackle over it, and sometimes include it as part of the paint job quote, sometimes a few dollars more. It's nominal compared to the cost of the paint job.
I watch TV small claim court shows and the most common of cases is picky landlords deducting for stuff line these. I can have the painter spackle for another $100.00, or less, often nothing. Instead, in these instances, landlord charge the tenants deposit for the entire paint job under the theory that were there no holes, they could skip the paint job. Landlords run the risk of penalties, double or triple the deposit withheld, particularly if they don't notify the tenants by mail listing things needed fixing within 30 days of moveout.
When I rent, I usually ask how I compare to competing units on the market, and the common response is they're not painted. For relocating people, mine is in move in condition, no additional work, while the others takes at least two weeks of work, so mine is rented right away, and for these people, time is money. Often, I rent it out in days compared to those on the market a month or two and I'm way ahead of the game.
- Lender · Member since 2020 · 89 posts · 69 votes6y
@Justin Bautista @Frank Chin Did you by any chance take pictures at the time of move in or performed a walk through? I do this even in a rental and document it all. Learned that from my grandfather who owned a few two families units in Queens, NY. Granted, there is normal wear and tear but sounds like its beyond wear. Its damaged in your case. Take pictures before you repair, save the invoice for the repair and rekey. Return the outstanding balance after your deduction. Document and save it for your records just in case.
- Real Estate Agent · Southington, CT · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes6y
I think a picture of what you are talking about with the holes in the wall would help give context and allow people to give better advice.
- Tax Strategist| National Tax Educator| Accepting New Clients · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes6y
Nail holes are normal wear and tear.
I guess 38 is a lot- But I bet it took you as long to count them as it would of to just fill em in.
Also threads titled like this / this mentality are giving backing to the "landlords are evil" movement right now. Lets try to be cautious.
Phrasing as "take security deposit" vs can I deduct repairs from security deposit makes a lot of difference when some website quotes the thread.
- Investor · Bayside, NY · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes6y
Originally posted by @Jenny Roman:
@Justin Bautista @Frank Chin Did you by any chance take pictures at the time of move in or performed a walk through? I do this even in a rental and document it all. Learned that from my grandfather who owned a few two families units in Queens, NY. Granted, there is normal wear and tear but sounds like its beyond wear. Its damaged in your case. Take pictures before you repair, save the invoice for the repair and rekey. Return the outstanding balance after your deduction. Document and save it for your records just in case.
I have done rentals for almost 40 years, mostly in Queens, and if I include my dad, he had his in Queens since 1963, almost 60, and I helped out as a young boy. So far, we haven't taken photos of move-in and move-outs, though that seem to be the trend. We do use a move-in and move-out checklist which both the landlord and tenant sign and certify.
However, communications these days are conducted through texts and e-mail, and if there are any issues, it's communicated through them. And because cell phones can be stolen, broken, everything on these iPhones are backed up into I-cloud, and also two apps that back up the messages onto my computers that has backup.
As to tenant damages, normally we paint upon tenant vacating, and every ten years or so re-carpet upon tenant vacating. Costs over $5,000. For the SFR, we supply the fridge, range and dishwasher. The fridge we never had a problem with, but with the range and dishwasher, had problems due to tenant misuse, so we now have service contracts on them, and if something comes up, the service company gets called. For instance, the current SFR tenant complained about the range soon after move-in, paid almost $300 to have it fixed, no good, and after the 2nd call, got a new range, and during the first year, had a service call under the warranty, and 2 months after that, got another complaint, fortunately we had a service contract, and was serviced under that.
For almost 40 years, for all the tenant move-outs, we have never deducted anything from tenant deposits. And in the past, for less credit worth tenants, we take two months rent deposit, but with rents in the $2,000+/month, we're take only one month, (NY state now limits it to one month) and if we quibble over every little hole in the wall, no body gets anything back, and we'll wind up in court every time. Right now, I have a tenant under stipulation, 4 months behind on rent, and NY state has a 3 month eviction moratorium. He says the company he works for shut it's doors 2 weeks ago, and might resume operations in 2 weeks, and he'll see what he can do then. Chances are, he won't pay till July, if anything, we only got a little over a month deposit, and he'll be 7 months past due. My attorney filed all the paperwork prior to the moratorium for an eviction, paying $2,500 in legal fees, so we'll see what happens in July.
He appears to keep the property in good shape, inside and out, and through the years, tenants have hung pictures on the wall, and on moveout, usually have more than 38 holes throughout the house when they vacate. If we evict this guy, holes in the wall is the least of the problems. In fact, I might not be able to rent the place out quickly due to the pandemic. The tenant dad apparently had a heart condition and been hospitalized a few time this past year, and I realize a sympathetic judge will allow him additional time to stay. And I reminded my wife, our NOO insurance does not allow a vacancy of more than 60 days, and if we evict this guy, the pandemic escalates, I might have delays renting, he might have to sleep in a car, and I'll lose coverage for a vacant house. Do I now hire a house sitter with him sleeping in his car outside?? I'm trying to picture this.
What a mess!! And I'm going to worry about a few holes in the wall?? But fortunately, my saving grace is I'm mortgage free on this property.
- Lender · Member since 2020 · 89 posts · 69 votes6y
@Frank Chin I hear you and agree totally about being worried about 38 holes when the world is on lockdown. Insane and surreal! However, we are here to learn best practices from seasoned investors. Stay safe !
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