Hawaii Landlord using $4000 deposit to fund carpet remodel

Hawaii Landlord using $4000 deposit to fund carpet remodel

Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes

Aloha.  I have a situation in Hawaii I am looking for guidance with.  My family had rented a 3000 square foot home from 2016-2020 with two large mastiffs.

Bottom line up front:  The owner is hinting at replacing his entire carpet using our $4000 deposit due to a dog smell.

Here are the facts:

1.  Carpets are original to the 2008 home.  The home has been rented with dogs in the past, but not for a period of 4 years with 2 XL sized dogs.

2.  During the initial walkthru, we took pictures and annotated every deficiency throughout the home.  

3.  Throughout our rental period we kept regular communication with the owners noting injuries from numerous nail pops, dislodged staples, ripped carpet seams and fraying carpet.  Their response was to cut the frays and snags that we came across.  Throughout the rental period, owner reminded us that he needed the dog smell out of the home when we left.

4.  Carpet was cleaned once a year using rented professional equipment and hired professional cleaners for a total of 4 times. 

5.  In preparation for our move out inspection on 1 Sept, we initially cleaned our home, hired professional cleaners on 28 Aug 2020, a professional carpet cleaner on the 29th and then dried the carpet In preparation for the inspection.

6.  On the day of the carpet cleaning, the carpet cleaner noted how he was impressed with the cleanliness of the carpet prior to his arrival and vacuumed again prior to his deep carpet shampoo cleaning. He noted that there is a 100% satisfaction guarantee if we are not happy with the work

7.  During the final walkthru on 1 Sept 2020, the owners were unable to attend the inspection and sent the neighbor’s sister to conduct it while they remained on the phone.  She noted a mildewy smell in the home.  We stated that the carpets were professionally cleaned 3 days prior, and we left the windows open and fans running that day before vacating the house over the weekend.  We stated that we returned to the house over the weekend to open the windows and dry the carpet, which probably led to the smell.  I stated we had no issue with bringing the carpet cleaner out again if needed.  We presented the inspector with all the pictures of our initial walkthru (she didn’t have the initial inspection sheet), and noted the condition of the carpet with her citing the previous conversations we had with the owners regarding it.  We also pointed out the various nail pops and injuries sustained from the fraying carpet and loose staples.  Following the inspection, the owners were satisfied and told us they would be sending us our deposit back as soon as we had a forwarding address we could provide. 

8.  On 2 and 3 Sept, owners stated that they wanted the smell out of the home.  He stated that his wife has pet allergies and needed clean carpets, or he would have no choice but to replace the carpets.  We asked to clarify which areas, to which he wanted all of it. 

9. We contacted the carpet cleaner to return to the house on the morning of 4 Sept 2020 to re-treat and re-deodorize the house alongside the owner’s sister.  

10.  We were contacted 12 hours later by the owner saying that the cleaner’s attempt to clean and deodorize was unsuccessful, and he is still not satisfied.  The owner states that he will leave all windows open and rehire the cleaner to do it all over again, or will have no choice but to replace the carpets.  

11.  The carpet cleaner stated that the owner called him Insisting That he  answers whether or not he could fix the problem with the carpet.  The carpet cleaner stated to me that He could not make a determination over the phone without making an assessment in person.  He stated that he used the strongest pet de-odorizing solution he has but sees the carpet to be clean.

Although the owner has not outright stated that he will use our deposit, he continually guilt trips us saying that he didn’t normally rent to families with pets, but allowed it because he saw how much it meant to our family to have our pets as a part of our home.

Naturally, I am biased of course - but I was very impressed with the amount of cleaning we have done with the rental.  We are landlords ourselves and manage 3 properties currently.  We have taken exceptional care in ensuring the house is cleaned properly and to our own standard as if it were a property we owned ourselves.  

Based off the homeowner’s language, we feel that the owner is continually hinting at changing all the carpeting for his house and has made up his mind that it must be changed.  He continually cites the dog smell, which naturally leads us to believe he wants to fund it using our deposit.  The carpet cleaner believes it is clean and also provides a 100% satisfaction guarantee.  I intend to make him clean until the owner is satisfied, but feel that the owner has already made up his mind.

How do we go forward?  Looking for advice 

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Rental Property Investor · Malvern, PA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 934 votes
6y

You may be able to claim the carpet is well past its useful lifespan regardless of the dogs. The conditions you noted support that position. IRS 2019 Publication 527 page 9 cites carpet in a residential rental property as having a 5 year life span for depreciation purposes. The landlord probably won't appreciate this argument, but it might help you if you go to court.

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  • Specialist · Riverside, CA · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Marc Estepa Ok you really buried the lead there all the way past point 11, that they haven't done anything yet.  In most places even if a landlord wanted to they cannot fully use a deposit for carpet replacement, sometimes they can do a certain percentage for each year you were there usually 5%.  If I had to guess they are probably objecting to the wife having some sort of allergic response, which may not be possible to clean out of the carpets, but that isn't necessarily your fault either.  Wait and see what happens, my guess is you get most of your deposit back, if not then come back and ask again.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    What does your lease say?  If the $4000 is a REFUNDABLE deposit, he does owe that to you on move-out less any amount spent on stuff beyond "normal" wear-and-tear.

    I guess I don't have a problem with him using that money for fixing the place up - AS LONG AS EVERYONE UNDERSTANDS IT IS YOUR MONEY AND REFUNDABLE UPON MOVE-OUT.

    I mean he takes your money and then puts in an account to replace the $4000 he took out to buy new carpet - At the end of the day what diff is it to you?

  • Rental Property Investor · Member since 2020 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    In my opinion you are only responsible for normal wear and tear which a dog smell is to be expected if they allowed you to live there with 2 large dogs for 4 years.  You have went above and beyond in my opinion and I do not think smell alone is going to hold up if you decide to challenge them in court.  Now if there is damage that you have left out you may be responsible for part of the damage however the owner is not entitled to replacement cost but must depreciate due to age.  12 year old carpet for a rental is pretty old and I'm not sure how much useful life would be left in there but I do not expect carpet to last over 10 years, and I would be happy to get even that.  On the other hand I also feel sorry for the owners wife, I am very allergic to cats and very sensitive to smells others may not notice.  Due to this and knowing it would be a problem at move out I am firm that I don't allow them but if I were to bend up front and allow them I would have to expect to smell cat when they left.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Malvern, PA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 934 votes
    6y

    You may be able to claim the carpet is well past its useful lifespan regardless of the dogs. The conditions you noted support that position. IRS 2019 Publication 527 page 9 cites carpet in a residential rental property as having a 5 year life span for depreciation purposes. The landlord probably won't appreciate this argument, but it might help you if you go to court.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y

    If there is a smell, you/they can buy an ozone machine and get rid of the smell.

  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Life span of carpet is considered 5-7 years in a rental. If your dogs shortened that lifespan, you will be responsible for the % of how much they shortened it.... that's it. The landlord doesn't get you to pay for the entire lifespan and depreciation of the carpet over that lifespan..... only the potential accelerated decline of its normal lifespan
  • Specialist · Easton, PA · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    This is exactly why I don’t allow pets in my properties.

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    I have a large dog. I rent to people with large dogs. It kind of goes with the territory that dogs are going to damage things, wear down flooring quicker than normal, leave odors etc. Does it suck? Yeah, but goes with the territory of owning dogs. 

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Steve Morris.  The lease agreement is the typical standard with regards to the use of a security deposit.  It’s held until after the final walkthru and returned in full unless there are damages caused by the tenants.  My issue is that a good landlord will typically set aside an amount of rent toward capital expenditures such as the eventual new roof, carpets, painting, etc.  That’s what I do for my 3 properties.  Depending on the rental laws of the state, the tenants are typically liable for any damages they did to the property during their rental term.  They are NOT held liable for normal wear and tear.  I spoke with my carpet cleaner today - he offers a 100% satisfaction guarantee, so I am scheduling him to go out yet AGAIN for a third treatment.  After speaking with the owners, when we left the property, they turned off the A/C, turned off the fans and closed up the house.  Hawaii obviously gets rather warm, which led to the odors.  When I told the landlord to leave it open, they complained that it would require someone to go babysit the house or leave it unsecured as the carpet dries.  I stated we need to meet halfway to ensure the carpet is cleaned to their standards, but I’m now off the island.  The owner is off the island too and sending family members to brief them on the status of the house due to CoVID.  Frustrating.

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Adam Martin, yeah this whole situation is frustrating.  I am sending the carpet cleaner forward one more time.  I did have a discussion with the owner and he simply wants the smell gone.  I told him we’ll send the carpet cleaner there for a third time, but understandably my carpet cleaner is getting frustrated also. 

     I told the owner there is a difference between normal wear and tear and damage caused by us as the tenant.  His argument is that the home should be returned in the same condition as it was received.  

    He acknowledged that the home was well taken care of, but it is the dog smell that is putting off his wife.  I said, “let’s talk worst case scenario here.  If I send the carpet cleaner again and the home still does not meet your standard for removing the smell, what’s the next course of action?” 

    He stated, “I have no choice but to change out the carpet.  He stated, if that’s the case - I will split the cost because I went against my normal rule of accepting dogs on the property and agreed.  On the other hand, you have large dogs and I think it’s only fair that you assist in changing out the carpet.” 

    I reminded him and his wife again that we are liable for damage not normal wear and tear.  He argued that they did not turn over a home with the smell of dog and expect it back in the same condition. 

    I told him that we can clean the house but realistically cannot remove every bit of dog hair from carpet after staying there for four years.  

    My next course of action is to send my carpet cleaner a third time to redo the carpet and see if that will remove this smell.  The saga continues.

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @James Mc Ree, thanks for the detailed regulation!  I’ll have to review this and see where we go from here.  I’ve reviewed some Hawaiian rental laws but can’t specifically find something related to carpet odor.  

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Theresa Harris.  I am going to look this up.  How expensive is this?  Is it a service a carpet cleaner could possibly execute as a service?

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Ned J. thanks!  I agree, I’m trying to understand the proper way forward with this.  His argument is that in all fairness the home should be returned in the same manner in which it was handed over.  Our sticking point is simply this smell.  He agrees that the home is well taken care of, but can’t get over this smell.  I’m a bit put off because they keep pushing back saying, “we allowed you to stay with your dog against our normal rules, but know that your dogs are important to your family.” 

    My thoughts are - If you accept pets, you accept them period.  And everything that goes with it.  

    Of course that doesn’t mean that I’m just allowing my pets to run amuck in the house to destroy everything.  But the owner has an unrealistic vision that there will be ZERO pet hair in the home and absolutely no trace of an animal ever living on the property.

    I don’t know what to do or how to properly proceed without burning bridges.  In the end, I’m trying to be cool and I’m trying to make sure we’re good - but we are not seeing eye to eye on this.  The owners are NOT pet owners and have a different expectation versus the reality of the situation.   

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Matt M. hey, that’s respectable and fair.  Accepting them opens up the aperture for potential renters, but does come with challenges such as this.  They are new to renting out to people with pets and unfortunately learning through this very situation.  I’ve rented for quite a few years prior to this and always had dogs.  Never had a problem until now.  This home I was most proud of for the condition we’ve maintained it in.  Unfortunately, we’re not seeing eye to eye right now.  

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Russell Brazil.  Yes, I wholeheartedly agree.  I’m frustrated because if you accept pets on your properties, you have to accept everything that comes along with it - within reason of course.  I’m not by any means saying I have free reign to let my dogs run around destroying everything and telling the owners to suck it up.  Of course not.  But there are reasonable expectations of what the owner should expect from a home being rented to renters with pets.  

    On top of that, I own mastiffs.  For those who are schooled on dogs, mastiffs are some of the laziest and Most non active dogs ever.  They sleep around 16-18 hours a day, wake up to eat, use the bathroom, bark at strange noises they hear and then go back to sleep.  Energy level is low.  As a landlord, I’ve ironically had the most issues with cats and small dogs. 

    I’m a pretty seasoned renter with dogs.  I have never had an issue with a homeowner and my dogs until now unfortunately.  I understand we are the first tenants they’ve ever dealt with pets, so this is a pretty painful learning curve.  I feel like they still have an emotional attachment to their former home, and are looking for something wrong.  Regardless, I just ask that they are realistic in their expectations, but I can see we’re clearly not on the same page.  I don’t know how to properly proceed.  Any advice?

  • Rental Property Investor · Brighton, MI · Member since 2020 · 30 posts · 33 votes
    6y

    @Marc Estepa I think you have a Slum Lord trying to take advantage. Original Carpet 2008. You moved into a place with 8 year old carpet in 2016!! This carpet is almost 13 years old. He knows he can’t rent again because of age and appearance. No one is going to rent a home with 13 year old carpet. He doesn’t want to pay to replace and he’s coming up with excuses. His wife smells it . Well is she going to live there ? He’s unprofessional, he’s letting his neighbor do the walk through..??

    Everything about this screams SLUM LORD!

    He says he’s willing to pay half because he

    “ allowed”

    You to have pets and usually doesn’t ??

    That’s only for his conscience. Did you have a written lease ?

  • Real Estate Agent · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 518 posts · 283 votes
    6y

    @Marc Estepa I wouldn’t worry about fixing the carpet as it was basically fully depreciated when your lease started, there is nothing to collect on.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Marc Estepa:

    @Theresa Harris.  I am going to look this up.  How expensive is this?  Is it a service a carpet cleaner could possibly execute as a service?

     I've not used one, but know others on BP have mentioned using it.  They said no one should be in the house when it is running.  They start at $80 US on amazon.

  • Investor · St Petersburg, FL · Member since 2014 · 231 posts · 221 votes
    6y

    @Susie Evans nailed it!

    Why does his wife care that she can smell it? Are they moving back in?

    I also don't really believe it. I'm very allergic to cats, and the sellers of my last home owned a cat. They lived there for 6 years, and had the carpet professionally cleaned and stretched right before I bought it. I never smelled cat, didn't sneeze any more than normal (I'm also allergic to New Mexico, and allergy meds barely take the edge off). I didn't sense any cat in there after one cleaning. This person isn't either. They're reacting to expensive carpet replacement.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    SORRY - I screwed up and mis-read the situation, thought he was moving IN and not moving OUT.

    Now you're disputing what is normal wear-and-tear.

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Colin Reid.  The kicker is that they aren’t even here to physically do the Final walkthru.  They sent their family members to do it.

     Anyway, they are apparently moving back to the house.  So in all fairness, that’s their right.  If she has allergies, then yes - I want to make sure we take care of it as best as we can, but we have to do it within reason.  

    Once we cleaned and vacated the property - we kept it open as much as we could so the property would air out.  When we did the final walkthru with the owner’s sister in law.  She mentioned that she smelled a mildewy smell.  I am biased of course and said, we just did the carpet 3 days prior so it might be still somewhat wet.  Rather than arguing at that moment, I said - “Regardless, not a problem, I can send the cleaner out again if you’d like.”  

    My understanding is that they locked up the house, turned off the AC and fans and let it sit.  As you know Hawaii gets hot.  They returned 2 days later and opened up the house and said the house now has a smell.  

    I resent the carpet cleaner to do a pet deodorizer treatment the very morning we had to depart from the island.  12 hours after the treatment, the owners claim they left it open but when they returned it was still bad.  So I am now now on the verge of sending him a 3rd time to get this thing redone.  

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Susie Evans, yes I agree.  He says they intend on moving back to the home and his wife has allergies.  Whether or not that’s true, is up for argument.  I have my own thoughts.  Instead of questioning them, I figured I would just do as I’ve always done and clean like hell.  

    We cleaned the week prior ourselves just as our movers moved our furniture.  On the 28th of Aug, we hired professional cleaners to clean the house, a grout guy to clean the grout, neighborhood kids to power wash the driveway, fences, side and back porch.  

    On Saturday, 29 AUG we sent the carpet cleaner in.  We cleaned and we left the doors and windows open, and ran the ceiling fans until that evening and then ran the AC before we moved to a hotel. We returned the next day to open up the house, re run the ceiling fans and open up the windows and did the same thing until the day of our inspection.  

    During the inspection on the afternoon of the 1st of Sept, the owner’s sister in law did the walkthru and stated that she smelt a slight mildewy smell.  I told her we did the carpets 3 days prior and they probably aren’t completely dry yet.  Rather than argue, I said it’s not a problem and I can resend the carpet cleaner.  We finished the walkthru with the owners on FaceTime and they were happy saying they would mail our deposit back once we had a forwarding address.  

    Fast forward 2 days.  The owners have taken control of the house, turned off the AC, turned off all ceiling fans and closed up the house.  This is Hawaii in the summer.  It is warm and the house still has damp carpet.  They return and say the house smells horrible.

    I immediately call my carpet cleaner. He says he will do a pet deodorizing spray to take care of it on the morning of the 4th of Sept.  This is the morning my family and I have to depart the island.   Upon the arrival of the carpet cleaner, he confirms that the smell is strong.  He completes his spray and tells them it should be good in 4 hours.  They left the windows open and fans running after the spray was complete.

    Upon my family’s arrival into our next duty station, we receive a flurry of texts from the owner saying that it has been 12 hours, the windows are wide open and the house still stinks.  He noted that wherever the cleaner stepped from the carpet to the tile, he has tracked residual dog hair throughout the home.  They take pictures and send them.

    Now I am receiving texts saying to fix it or they have no choice but to replace the carpet because they are moving back in and the wife has allergies.  I’m told that the house is disgusting and they would never have allowed dogs if they knew it would be like this.  Naturally I’m pissed and we FaceTimed yesterday to discuss in person.  

    The wife is emotional and says she wants the dog smell out.  I tell them we are responsible to damages we did, not the normal wear and tear of the carpet that was original to the home.  In the end, they simply want the smell out or they claim they will have to replace the carpet.  

    So I am now on the verge of sending my cleaner a third time.  If this doesn’t work, I’m at a loss.  I’m debating on using our rental insurance to deal with this, but I hate the fact that it would seem as if I’m admitting guilt by doing so.  

    Any thoughts?  Now what?  

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Steve Morris now they are saying they are moving back to the home and that the wife has allergies to the dog dander.  They are not here to do the walkthru and are instead sending family members to come in and smell the house for them. 

    Regardless of whether or not they’re moving back in - I am trying to do right by them and send the cleaner for a third time to basically do it all over again.  If this doesn’t do the trick, I don’t know what else to do.  

    See the timeline in my previous response to @Susie Evans.  What more can I do?  I feel like they’ve already made up their minds by constantly saying they have no choice but to replace the carpet if the smell isn’t gone.

    My dogs are Cane Corsos.  They are mastiffs and are pretty inactive.  They sleep about 15-18 hours a day and basically get up to eat, drink water, use the bathroom, bark and whatever noise they hear, wrestle for approximately 3 minutes at a time and go back to sleep.  They don’t run and are literally the laziest dogs I have ever owned in my life.  I know they aren’t tearing up the carpet because basically sleep all day.  

  • Washington State · Member since 2020 · 133 posts · 36 votes
    6y

    @Storm S. I hope not.  This whole situation is stressing everyone out.  I’ve departed the island and need to focus on the next location but I’m here messing with this whole situation  still. See My responses to @Susie Evans, that lays out the timeline to everything.  I just don’t know what the hell else to do if this does not work.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 53 posts · 17 votes
    6y

    I will give my perspective as a landlord on the cigarret smell issue I dealt with post move-out. I believe carpet traps smells: whether it is from the cigarret or pets and it is almost impossible to get rid of. 

    In the Lease, we have the following language: 

    Smoking: Smoking is not allowed inside the premises. If there is are signs of smoking,the tenant realizes that the walls will likely need to be sealed with primer and repainted.Tile grout will have to be cleaned and carpet replaced to rid of the smoke odor.  The cost will be incurred solely by the tenant. Outside smoking area must be left clean and free of cigarette butts and trash. A minimum $500.00 fine will be assessed if violation occurs.

    Addendum: “SMOKING IS NOT PREMITTED INSIDE THE PREMISES. If there are signs of smoking, the tenant will be liable for costs incurred to perform the following services: prime & paint walls, professional clean all floors & in some cases replace carpet.”

    My tenants were evicted and did not do any cleaning Marc Estepa did, left tons of possessions we had to spent $1062 just for the eviction crew and trash out alone before we even start having contractor start all the rehab.   The eviction crew stated all their clothes had heavy cigarett smell. So coat closet and small hallway closet do smell cigarret.  One bedroom/closet the cigarett smell is strong especially when heat rises and the smell is trapped in the carpet.  So for that space, we did prime/seal the wall, repaint ($370) and replace the carpet ($499).  I believe these cost should be charged to the tenants per our Lease agreement. 

    Bottom line is it is impossibe to rid of the cigarret smell without the replacement of carpet in our situation.  


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