They Couldn't Borrow $100 For One Day?
Residential Landlord · Greenfield, WI · Member since 2013 · 299 posts · 126 votes
They Couldn't Borrow $100 For One Day?
Most Popular Reply
Mike B.Pro Member
Developer · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 434 posts · 357 votesThat's not a very nice attitude, Bill. Times are tough for a lot of people, everyone's situation is different. Maybe the $25 wasn't worth the guy having to swallow his pride in order to ask people for money...that is something I can relate to. I wasn't born into money so trust me when I tell you that I know what it's like to struggle. Now that I'm doing well, I won't make fun of or ignore when others make fun of people that are in a situation I was once in. You guys are better than this.
56 Replies
- Lender · Fort Pierce, FL · Member since 2009 · 825 posts · 486 votes13y
Switch it around. A new tenant passes your screening, pays the first month's rent and security deposit and says "I'd like to move in on the first." You, the landlord agree. Then on the last day of the month (the day before move in day), you, the landlord, call the new tenant and say "sorry I need to do a few last minute things to the property so I can't let you move in until the 3rd ... but I'm charging you for the full month anyway."
Would that go over very well in a business relationship?
If not, why should the landlord accept the tenant NOT abiding by their end to the rental agreement ... that is on time payments?
- Residential Landlord · Greenfield, WI · Member since 2013 · 299 posts · 126 votes13y
By the by, I'm going to collect tonight, the 7th, from a 4 month long tenant. This is her first late. She asked if there is a late fee. She knows there is. I am going to extend the same courtesy to her that I do to all my tenants. I'll let the first one go, after that, no more. I will make that very clear. She let me know in advance she was going to be late, and why.
It's one thing if they let you know well in advance they will be late, and how late.
It's another if they're evasive.
- Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes13y
I agree that poor people have poor ways. Not poor ways in the sense of shameful ways, but just everything about how they do things.
Poor people go to the grocery store to pay bills. Poor people get behind on rent and can't find anyone to loan them 100 for the day because they don't have any friends with 100 to give. Poor people come across hard times more easily. Poor people make financial decisions more with emotions than logic. Poor people spend what little money they get very quickly because they aren't used to having it - like a binge of a sort.
I have poor family members and poor friends. These are by an large good people. These are not people that I spend lots of time with anymore, but I am quite familiar with the poor man's mentality because I myself have had it in the past.
There is just a ton of truth to what Bill Gulley says and I think y'all taking offence to it need to put your big boy pants on and face up to the truth.
- 13yDawn AnastasiPro MemberRental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 6k+ posts · 4k+ votes
I believe the "culture of poverty" is a true phenomenon. When you grow up around people who don't have bank accounts, and who shop for groceries at the convenience store, that's what is "normal" and that's what you learn.
Plus, there is the "cycle of poverty". You need transportation and an address to get a job, but if you don't have a job, you can't get transportation and an address.
If you are the "working poor" and receive welfare, and get a job to better yourself, suddenly you lose money you were depending on. Yes, you are "punished" for working.
- SFR Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 134 posts · 16 votes13y
James H. I understand that my stance is not popular, and I will not waver. In you telling me to wear my big boy pants, I only feel sorrow for you. Belittling's not the way.
- Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes13y
It's not a character flaw at all, i can certainly respect a poor man as well as a rich one, in fact, the poor man has a better chance of gaining my respect than many rich men I know!
It's an old saying, poor people have less opportunities due to financial circumstances and they are limited to seeking economical ways to cure a problem. It often ends up costing more in the long run for a poor person to cure a problem than a person with means, just a fact.
I wasn't born with a silver spoon in my mouth, not sure I deserve a silver foot it in either! Been there done that! :)
- Investor · Fort Worth, TX · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 450 votes13y
Originally posted by Ryan Logsdon:
James H. I understand that my stance is not popular, and I will not waver. In you telling me to wear my big boy pants, I only feel sorrow and shame for you.There is no need to fill yourself with such negative feelings on my behalf. You do not need to waiver and I don't need to be condecending in my comment either.
I think your unwaivering stance is a little naive if at least good intentioned. It is okay to see the truth for what it is - even when it is not attractive. Dawn A. makes very valid points in addition to Matt Devincenzo. There are exceptions in all cases, but the big picture is undeniable.
It's not like we are snickering around about it. As I said, I have poor friends and family. I myself lived paycheck to paycheck for a long time and know what my mentality was. It's just the facts of life. The poor people that I know do not have the time of day to hear about how to handle finances or get education. It goes in one ear and out the other. Mostly it bounces off the ear.
- Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes13y
Originally posted by James Vermillion:
That is $25 they won't have next month...thus the cycle often continues.Sadly, yes.
Some spend too much money and don't get paid until 2 weeks later.
Or, they don't work enough hours.
Or, they rented a place that's just too far beyond their means.
Others scrimp all the time and truly have no money and no excess spending and live very meagerly all of the time.
- Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes13y
Originally posted by Dawn A.:
Furthermore, why not just have a bank account so you don't have to pay money order fees at all?They probably didn't get approved for a bank account.
Bad credit, or ChexSystems (previous bad checking account misuse / mistakes).
Some checking accounts require minimum deposits, monthly fees, etc.
Some people don't trust banks.
Other people don't know that some banks even offer free checking accounts.
And, some people don't have any docs/ID to even get a checking account.
Assuming they had decent credit and no ChexSystems or TeleCheck problems, a free no monthly fee checking account definitively makes sense.
- Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes13y
Originally posted by James Vermillion:
I consider myself to be a very compassionate and understanding person, but I also believe that if I set policies, I need to stand by them, as I am expected to on my end. Leniency on such policies can often make people feel good about doing a good deed, only to later cause bigger problems.I agree. "Helping" by allowing multiple lates might not really be helping them, and could be a bigger problem for you later.
- Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes13y
If they're poor enough not to have $100 (or even $100 in savings, retirement, personal loans, credit cards, or ANYTHING they could pull money from), they're pretty poor. They may have terrible credit and no access to credit or loans, not even for a day. Probably live in a poor neighborhood, work minimum wage (or don't work and take welfare), probably have relatively low rents, etc.
If all their friends are as poor as them, finding someone with $100 to spare all at once might be difficult.I once joined a civic organization where the annual dues were $75. The woman asked me "How much of it do you want to pay today?" After being confused for a minute, I realized that maybe some people couldn't pay that amount at once and had to pay the $75 over time.
I've seen people who paid for groceries with coins, and I've seen people who paid over a million for a house in CASH (well, certified cashier's check). I've been relatively broke before (I really should've worked more job hours when I was younger), and also been better able to make more substantial purchases.
Sometimes it's just a matter of timing. I went to an expensive private college (and kick myself for that debt all the time!). I borrowed in student loans, and got a more substantial job halfway through. Even with that "income" of loans and some work hours, sometimes there would be a week or two where I could hardly afford public transit fares. I was making poor (to put it mildly) financial choices, just like some of the people who can't pay $100 in rent on time. I chose to spend more income than I comfortably had. There's also sometimes just unexpected expenses -- health, cars, kids, fewer work hours than promised, etc. that hinders people. I would say that not preparing for SOME unexpected expenses is a poor financial choice. Even then, I don't think you can prepare for all unexpected expenses. I don't know that many people who could replace their car, clothes, rent money if they lost their job, etc. if they had to within a day. We don't really live well enough below our means.
Having NO access to even $100 in savings or credit/loans is scary. And, it's a very poor financial decision. They paid $25 fee on that $100 for one day. If $100 was impossible for them to come up with, that $25 loss would be hard. They'll repeat the cycle, living beyond their means (if they have any means). They're not making enough money and have expenses that are too high. With no ability to use $100 from a credit card, it sounds like they have no credit cards (not with available credit, anyway). So, their credit is bad. That's another poor financial decision.
- Property Manager · Livonia, MI · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes13y
Originally posted by J Scott:
Originally posted by George P.:
i'd not fine them for one day.There's a basic tenet of contract law called the doctrine of Laches.
It essentially says, "If you voluntarily choose not to enforce terms of contract, you may be giving up your legal right to enforce those contract terms in the future."
This is a great example. Let's say you gave the tenant a free pass on the late fee for three months and then tried to enforce it when the the tenant missed the payment again in the fourth month -- there's a very real possibility a judge would determine that you "slept on your rights" by not enforcing the contract for three months, thereby changing the agreement.
hmmm, yes and no. if this ever happens, there's no way to prove that he was late in the past and i was lenient (or gave him a free pass). i can always say "i cashed the check late" if details need to come out.
btw, a few hrs ago i went with my 15 year beater truck to fertilize the yard and since the truck has no muffler, one could hear it coming from a mile away. sure enough, he was sitting on the porch waiting for me with a check for $1225 and the water bill included.
so i am happy.
- Investor · Southeast, MI · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes13y
I think that this tenant who was short the $100 for a day is probably just one of these people who is often a day late and a dollar short. (In this case, $100 dollars short). I wonder how many lottery tickets he buys or if he smokes cigarettes at $7 per pack, per day.
It seems like the people who don't have money are the ones who are most wasteful with the little money that they do have. I see tenants cashing their paychecks at the party store and paying huge fees. I see them with prepaid phones that end up costing more because they're not responsible enough to have a normal phone plan like the rest of us. I see them renting to own furniture and appliances, which ends up costing several times the actual price. I see them buying food at 7-Eleven for big dollars instead of going to the grocery store. I go to tenants houses in the summer and the A/C is set at 70 degrees. I go to the same house in the winter and it's 80 degrees.
Several people seem to feel bad for this guy that he had to pay the $25. He has nobody to blame but himself. I tell my tenants the same thing - if you don't want to pay late fees, all you have to do is pay on time.
- 13yDon KonipolBusiness MemberInvestor · The Woodlands TX / Avon, CT · Member since 2009 · 6k+ posts · 10k+ votes
Some people are in bad financial situations because they bring it on themselves through poor habits, bad decisions, laziness, etc. Others are in bad financial situations because of an outside force, i.e. bad economy, low intelligence, bad luck, etc.
The decision to enforce a contract doesn't make a landlord good or bad, compassionate or non compassionate. However, landlords have been portrayed in society and by governments as the bad guys, throwing widows and orphans out on the street, etc.
The $25 is a relatively small sum, one day late is a very short time late. However, where is the line drawn. Are no evictions performed during the December holidays? Are people with 3 or more children allowed a 30 day grace period. Is divorce a reason for breaking a lease.
What I find amazing is that people in jobs or businesses that wouldn't think of giving away their product or labor think landlords are bad or lack compassion for insisting on getting paid for providing lodging. I wonder if the same tenant unable to pay his rent is also unable to feed his family. If so, do the same people believe the grocer should give away groceries to this individual without payment. And do the employees of the grocer agree to go without their salary for a week because their employer lost money by giving away his product?
When pressed with these questions these same people often reply that the employees are not able to financially go without their salaries, but the "rich" grocery store owner is. So does that mean that the employees of the grocery store should give up their wages to feed the poor of the third world countries who earn less than $500 per year.
- Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes13y
I used to be more lenient on my late fees in the past but have been much more strict lately. I have one tenant that has texted me a week or so early saying they would pay on the 5th or 6th. I said both times that this would be the a lower late fee than by the lease since they notified me early and it would be the first time. Both times I went to get rent from the other tenant on the first and their rent was in the box. $10 in late fees seemed to be enough motivation. I have other tenants that seem to have no urgency to about $50 - $60 in late fees. Like others mentioned these are the same people I happen to run into the few times I get out to the bar ( apearently enough money to buy drinks for a night and hire a baby sitter for her 3 - 4 kids). She also will have the front door open in winter with the heat on at 76. Leave the lights on in the basememt all the time and rents top of the line washer and dryer. It is amazing how much money and resources are wasted.
You cannot change people but you can protect yourself and enforce the rules that were designed for a reason.
- 13yMike B.Pro MemberDeveloper · Chicago, IL · Member since 2013 · 434 posts · 357 votes
This will be my last post in this thread, I'm not going to continue to beat this dead horse. I don't have an opinion on whether the OP should charge the late fee, I don't tell anyone how to run their business. Everyone has had their own experiences and that will usually dictate how lenient they are with their fees. My comments have always reflected the attitude of generalizing the poor. Yes, I'm well aware that some people mismanage their money and I'm also aware that people take advantage of the system. The point is not ALL poor people are doing these things. I'm not sure what I find funnier, the third grade "get your big boy pants" line or the "I have family members that are poor so I know all about the poor"...not to be confused with the my best friend is black so I can say the N word!
Bottom line is that when I saw someone from Texas weigh in I knew I would have to have patience as the entire country is aware that they are the slowest to catch up socially....(see what I did there generalizing). Have a great weekend. - Investor · Appleton, WI · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 464 votes13y
Mike - You don't have to respond as I understand your point. I think "poor people" that are being discussed primarily are those that have the abilty to make changes to improve their financial life. I agree with you that to lump all people that struggle into the "poor people" profile is invalid. I know many people that I would classify as poor that have higher incomes than many. A single mother who who hasn't seen the inside of a restaurant except for extra income I believe by and large garners a lot of respect. Whereas a single mother who puts a weekend on the town with her girlfriends and a flat screen tv in the living room ahead of her responsibilities doesn't deserve the same respect. It is about the choices people make.
On the other hand it is easy to say after the fact that a person should have had insurances in place and planned for this or that but it is not real helpful advice after these decisions and choices have been made. My wife and I often have the conversation that we could have newer vehicles or go out to eat more often or even hire out more work that we do ourselves but how at the end of the day we see that by choosing this lifestyle we give ourselves greater options with every passing day to movs up in lifestyle without any negative financial effects.
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes13y
Originally posted by J Scott:
Originally posted by George P.:
i'd not fine them for one day.There's a basic tenet of contract law called the doctrine of Laches.
It essentially says, "If you voluntarily choose not to enforce terms of contract, you may be giving up your legal right to enforce those contract terms in the future."
This is a great example. Let's say you gave the tenant a free pass on the late fee for three months and then tried to enforce it when the the tenant missed the payment again in the fourth month -- there's a very real possibility a judge would determine that you "slept on your rights" by not enforcing the contract for three months, thereby changing the agreement.
A lot of people, even landlords, don't know anything about contracts. There's no point in having a contract with a tenant if you don't hold up your end and make timely and good faith efforts to enforce the terms.
In our courts, the judges I've observed do not grant landlords late fees for previous months if no collection was attempted and documented. Additionally I've seen them deny damages for days following the rent due date if no action or collection attempts were made. Often they will start the prorated damages on the day the landlord filed a quit or pay. If you file it on Day 20 (or Day 95) that's a lot of days for which compensation will not be included in the final order.
- Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes13y
Originally posted by Dawn A.:
Tenants are the way they are with their finances and that may be one reason why they are tenants and not homeowners.For example, I had one tenant pay this month with 2 money orders and $55 cash. Why pay with 2 money orders and incur 2 money order fees instead of just getting 1 money order? Furthermore, why not just have a bank account so you don't have to pay money order fees at all?
I ask myself these questions, but don't ask the tenant, because it's not my business to run their finances (nor do I want to).
What are the dates on those money orders? It's likely (and a common practice) to buy a money order when you have the cash on payday so it doesn't get spent before the rent is due. People living hand-to-mouth often don't have bank accounts. Your tenant may have an account, but knows that putting money in it is risky. It's possible your tenant might have advanced money management skills for his income and education. He's probably not selling drugs. Those guys are cash only.
- Real Estate Investor · scranton, PA · Member since 2010 · 174 posts · 14 votes13y
no way. 3 month tenant, not the first issue and sarcastic to boot? uh uhh. nope. full late fee and no renewal. theres the door
my lease allows me to go to magistrate on the 3rd. next time i would. they struck out
- Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2013 · 292 posts · 81 votes13y
Along with what J Scott and K Marie have said, when I have accepted rent late, or waived a fee, I have always put in writing that the acceptance is a one-time event and doesn't constitute any change to the lease terms, and have had the tenant sign.
- Rehabber · Albuquerque, NM - New Mexico · Member since 2011 · 283 posts · 38 votes13y
Matt Devincenzo & James H.
Okay, so first, just because something is a "very true statement" doesn't mean it's not offensive or to others, "vile". That statement is obviously going to tick off some people, everyone could guess that before even reading pass that comment.
If you told me my sister is, "fat", and her, "fat ways" would keep her fat I would be mad at you. But in defense you may say, "Well it's a very true statement. Why get mad at something that is based on fact?" Sorry if I'm so sensitive, but stating that true statement wouldn't be something I'd take kindly to.
And to both of you, it's not at all a true statement/generalization. And if you think so, then you generalized me too, and practically my whole family. Last year I made probably around $8k. I eat Ramen noodles and Spanish Rice everyday. Sound poor? But guess what, I don't, "go to the grocery store to pay bills... get behind on rent and can't find anyone to loan [me] 100 for the day because [I] don't have any friends with 100 to give... make financial decisions more with emotions than logic... spend what little money they get very quickly because they aren't used to having it - like a binge of a sort."
And neither does most of my family. The great majority of it doesn't.
But I'm glad you think that about me and my poor family, good to know.
-Manuel - Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes13y
Manuel Acuna, yes poor people have poor ways generally, but I did not say they are necessarily low income.
Like my neighbor in the duplex I rent(because rent is cheaper here in SD for me than buying). He makes about 90-95K a year as a pipefitter, and his poor ways keep him poor. The family goes out to eat almost every night and they eat many of their other meals too from what I've seen. He does carpool as they only have 1 car, but he mentioned not getting a second car because the financing was too much until their current car is paid off because of his poor credit.
I make less money than him and use my available income to invest. Poor financial ways lead to him being poor, and good financial ways lead to me planning for the future.
I did not say I think that about you and your family, I don't think that about anyone specifically unless I know them personally. But I can say the statement holds true, again as a generalization, for most people who are poor they exhibit poor (financial) ways. If you and yours are not in that group then great I'm glad that you are exhibiting good habits and I have faith that you will be able to break free from that place you are in financially right now.
I'm sorry you took offense to the statement and any part I played in it. But for me I would no more take offense to someone saying "They (landlords) own substandard housing and don't fix things that they should and are really slumlords". This statement is also true of many landlords I've seen and heard about, I don't fall into the category and thus take it to mean others that are not me, and I strive to make sure that I can never be placed in this category by providing clean housing and fixing things promptly and correctly.
- Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes13y
I think what has gotten lost in this conversation was the OP. He is puzzled that the tenant had nobody to borrow $100 from. Everything is relative. There are areas in the country that have 20%+ unemployment, there are no jobs to be had, people have lost their homes, and communities are struggling. There used to be a time when people hunkered down and helped their neighbors, but that's not so anymore. If you live in such an area, and you have exactly enough to get you by from month to month, and the car breaks down, you get a flat tire, car registration is due, etc., then the money to fix that comes from someplace else, perhaps the rent money, as the car becomes the priority because it's needed to go look for work, go to the store, take the kids to school, etc.
In some of those areas people can't afford to license their cars, and end up getting a ticket, then comes a huge fine that they can't afford, and next their car is impounded and sold....
The point being, sometimes people are drowning, and we have an opportunity to throw them a lifeline, or be the anchor that takes them down.
Every circumstance is different, and I don't care if I have a contract with someone or not, I am not going to ever let that guide what I do as a human being.
Once again.... every situation is unique, and I'm not saying to be enablers of bad behavior.
- Real Estate Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2010 · 449 posts · 173 votes13y
I've covered a fair part of the spectrum during my life. My Dad owned a business and when I was a kid we were fairly well off. That was until my late teens, when my Dad had severe financial troubles, and we had nothing. He died of a heart attack when I was 21, we believe due to the stress of the financial troubles. I have never been as ashamed as when I had to try to bum money off the lady who worked at the school cafeteria. There was a school project (the class was making a book), and each kid had to bring in $10 towards the cost, and I was too ashamed to bring it up in class that I didn't have it, so I hit up the cafeteria lady instead. In the months after my Dad died, I was even homeless for a couple of days (my Mom had died several years before my Dad, and my sister was younger, so I had no-one I could turn to).
As an adult, I spent most of my twenties living paycheck to paycheck. My first wife wasn't good with money, and I was too stupid/weak to insist that the bad behavior stop. The money issues were one of the contributing factors to the divorce.
As a 30 year old, I was fortunate enough to get a second chance and met my current wife. We were both good with money, but there was quite the hole to climb out of due to my first marriage. We persevered, and by my mid thirties we were financially comfortable and still are (I'm 42 now).
Several members of our extended family have financial troubles. We have contributed quite a lot of money over the years, and had many sit down and talks about how problems can be solved going forward. Usually it doesn't work, and the problems reoccur.All in all I feel like I have decent perspective on both sides of the coin.
The thing I've learned from it all, is that being poor or rich has little to do with the size of your bank account, or the number on your paycheck. Those things are symptoms, not the be all and end all. To me, the biggest "poor" behavior is believing that external forces control your financial well being, not you. That is a lot closer in my mind to actually defining "poor". You see tons of examples. People claiming a lower number of dependents on their W4 so that the tax man can save money for them because they can't (obviously they can since they didn't starve with the higher withholding). An extended family member once had a scratch off lottery ticket addiction. It's the same thing - losing belief that you can improve your financial situation, and handing over the responsibility to luck.
So I think that someone like Manuel above can not earn much last year, but having followed his posts for some time, I can say that he is far from "poor", because he doesn't act or think like what I'm describing above.
On the flip side, I know plenty of people making really good money that are close to poor, due to not knowing what the heck they are doing and having zero discipline.
I don't want to put words in Bill's mouth, but the way I read his post was that it was more a comment about the underlying behaviors that make people poor, and not necessarily stereotyping everyone that doesn't have a lot of money.
-Harry
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