Financing a multifamily with empty units

Financing a multifamily with empty units

New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes

Hello all. I just read an article on commercial financing that said commercial lenders would consider rents in the decision when financing a multi-family if there were leases. I am going on a three-day car trip tomorrow and looking at nine multi-families. Some have leases in place, some have month-to-month tenants and some have one or both units vacant. I actually liked the buildings with vacant units, because they are already beautifully renovated and many of the tenants in occupied units have been there for a long time and are paying far below market rent. If I ask them to leave at the end of the lease, they could refuse and I could be stuck with them because of the eviction moratoriums. (My real estate agent is a landlord and flipper and he says to raise the rent to market over three years and he has always had them leave on their own.) With the vacant units I can charge market or close to market rents and screen applicants heavily to try to pick ones who work in stable sectors of the economy. Has anyone had experience in getting a loan for an empty duplex? I'm not asking about LLC/commercial lending vs.residential loans, a topic I have looked in to thoroughly. I need to protect my assets and want to buy with an LLC.

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Real Estate Agent · Worcester, MA · Member since 2018 · 515 posts · 408 votes
5y

it is typical not to see the units prior to making an offer.  But your offer should be subject to seeing all the units.  Honestly there are buyers who are willing to buy without even seeing any units.  I am not one of them.  Most of the money is in the basement.  I have put in offers on buildings with only seeing the outside and the basement, and they usually work out.  In a Worcester 3 decker the units can be terrible and you can overcome that.  If the outside and the basement are terrible, it is hard to overcome that.  Take the pricing this way.  Figure you have a $400k 3 decker.  These are the things you can price from the outside and the basement.  Roof $15k, Siding $25k , Windows $15k, Doors $10k, steps/decks $30k now in the basement. Heating systems $30k, Electrical $30k, just the cast iron soil stack $10k. THAT is $165k of stuff that can be done or partly done.  you can redo a whole unit for $40k and make it wonderful.  Let me know if you want me to show you the difference in Worcester. Im out every weekend

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  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    5y

    @Julie Williams That's great you are looking to purchase your first multifamily!

    You can definitely finance a vacant multifamily. We are doing it right now with a quad. It is vacant with renovated units. Our lender asked for pro forma financials which we provided.

    Our preference is to buy properties that are vacant that way we can do the needed upgrades and rehab, and then rent out at market rents. With an in-place tenant, you are 1) stuck in a lease you did not sign and must honor until it expires and 2) tenants you did not screen yourself. You can try to offer incentives to have them sign your new lease but they are not obligated to do so. 

    When the lease expires, then you can choose not to renew and complete your rehab upon their departure. If they are good tenants, then you could offer to move them into the other vacant, rehabbed units so you can complete the rehab on the unit they were living in. I could be wrong, but the eviction moratorium does not apply to expired leases. Once it expires, you are free to not renew and they must leave.

    If the rents are really low compared to market rates, then it could take a little time to raise the rents to match the market. In theory, you could drop the market rates on the tenant at renewal or even if they are month-to-month. If they are good, paying tenants, then you may want to raise them over time. If it hasn't been raised in a long time, then they may actually not be too shocked when you do raise them.

    Good luck on your search!

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    If you're getting a loan from a bank that originates, services and keeps the loan, you may be able to get away with vacancies.

    If you're getting agency loan (ie FNMA/FMAC) they're going to want a min vacancy rate shown by actual collections/rent rolls.

  • Stephanie P.Pro Member
    Washington, DC Mortgage Lender/Broker · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    @Julie Williams

    Ordinarily I say exhaust all of your conventional financing options before going commercial, but with commercial becoming more competitive, especially in the maximum loan to value for multi's lately, you should consider it.  Vacancy is based on market conditions if the property is vacant and while the rates are a higher than conventional no tax returns or pay stubs are required for qualification.  Something to consider.

    Good luck on your search

    Stephanie 

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    @Steve Morris Sounds like I would do better with a local or regional bank. 

  • Investor · Lake Worth, FL · Member since 2016 · 233 posts · 140 votes
    5y

    @Julie Williams it really depends on the vacancy percentage and number of units in the building. If the building is 4 units or less, the it'll be different than over 4 as well. I'm a bit confused as to the vacancies and mtn tenants as it related to a duplex. If the vacancy is very low you might get away with a portfolio lender ot might have to get an investor to increase the downpayment thus reducing the carrying cost or go to a hard money lender until the property is stabilized.

  • Rental Property Investor · Cincinnati, OH · Member since 2019 · 59 posts · 77 votes
    5y

    @AJ H. I love your strategy. What size multis are you buying with higher vacancy rates?

    I’m looking at some larger multi families, and I also prefer to buy vacant.

  • Real Estate Broker · Alton, IL · Member since 2020 · 2 posts · 1 vote
    5y

    @Stephanie P.

    No pay stubs or tax returns?

    Tell me more about this?

    I haven't heard of this except before the market crashed in 08.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Julie Williams:

    @Steve Morris Sounds like I would do better with a local or regional bank. 

    Yes, having a relationship (ie deposit $10M and they'll loan you $1M back) helps on properties that have "issues".

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    5y

    @Brianne Leichliter We invest in multifamilies with at least 10 units. As you mention, our preference is vacant, but it usually is not the case.

    We should talk more if you think our goals match up.

    Have a great day!

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    @Aaron W. I was thinking along these lines myself, and it is nice to see it articulated clearly by someone more experienced. I don't know if how the eviction moratorium is implemented varies from state to state. In Massachusetts, the existing law (before the moratorium, and it is still in play) is that if a tenant does not renew the lease and does not move out, they convert to a month-to-month tenant and you would have to evict them. Massachusetts has some of the most robust tenant law in the nation and evictions are difficult and lengthy. So in an eviction moratorium, they don't have to leave. You could ask them to do so professionally and politely. If you are pushy it could be construed as harassment. You could buy them out. Offer them $1000 or $2000 to leave. (Rents are high here so you would recoup that quickly.) The great thing with the empty units is you can select applicants with jobs in industries that aren't going to disappear, or retirees. The other issue I am finding is access to view interiors of occupied multi-families. My agent says that the reason multi-families are selling far more slowly than single families is that it is often hard to arrange with tenants to show them because of COVID-19. In fact, of the nine properties I came to see, my sales agent has so far been unable to arrange showings at four of them because of tenants not cooperating with listing agents with showings. 

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    @Steve Morris If I had $10M I would write novels, not buy property. 

  • New to Real Estate · Greater Boston · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 18 votes
    5y

    Hi there, We are also trying to buy Multi family (first time investment) in Massachusetts, facing the similar situation of not able to see the units as they are occupied (due to Covid restrictions). What areas are you looking to buy? What are the best cities to invest in MA in the coming 1-3 years? We were able to only really find around Gardner or Worcester or Leominster in Worcester county & Middlesex county. People talked about Fall River and such but we have no experience so we are looking around where we can manage as this will be our first investment. 

  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y

    The property being vacant should not be a problem for lending, unless there is something specific in the market that leads the lender to believe it could stay vacant long term. 

    I think buying vacant is sometimes over rated. I see all the time new landlords with no experience wanting to buy vacant. The rationale being they don't want to be stuck with tenants from the old landlord. That ignores the reality that the old landlord has more experience than the new landlord. Everyone starting out thinks they can do a better job and I assure you that not always the case. Most of the mistakes I see in tenant selection are made by new landlords, which makes sense because they are inexperienced.

    I always question why a landlord would sell a vacant multifamily property? As a landlord myself, even when a property was listed for sale, I actively worked to fill the vacancy. An empty property doesn't generate income. My point is what kind of landlord or investor lets an asset sit idle, not producing income? 

    Inheriting tenants is not always bad. The advantage is cash flow day one. Odds are good if you buy a vacant place, you are stuck with at least one month worth of vacancy. So even if you rent a higher rate, it needs to be enough to offset that loss of income. 

    There are pros and cons both ways, just don't close yourself off to a deal because there are or are not tenants in place. Happy property hunting and good luck!

  • Real Estate Agent · Worcester, MA · Member since 2018 · 515 posts · 408 votes
    5y

    it is typical not to see the units prior to making an offer.  But your offer should be subject to seeing all the units.  Honestly there are buyers who are willing to buy without even seeing any units.  I am not one of them.  Most of the money is in the basement.  I have put in offers on buildings with only seeing the outside and the basement, and they usually work out.  In a Worcester 3 decker the units can be terrible and you can overcome that.  If the outside and the basement are terrible, it is hard to overcome that.  Take the pricing this way.  Figure you have a $400k 3 decker.  These are the things you can price from the outside and the basement.  Roof $15k, Siding $25k , Windows $15k, Doors $10k, steps/decks $30k now in the basement. Heating systems $30k, Electrical $30k, just the cast iron soil stack $10k. THAT is $165k of stuff that can be done or partly done.  you can redo a whole unit for $40k and make it wonderful.  Let me know if you want me to show you the difference in Worcester. Im out every weekend

  • Benjamin AakerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Brandon, SD · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y

    Multifamily properties (over 4 units) are generally underwritten by the income approach. A bank will look at the potential income which you present to it. They will also look at your background to make a determination if they think you will be able to get tenants in. If you can't you won't be able to pay them back and they surely want to avoid that. It also helps if you have other sources of income with which to guarantee the property. Put together a nice pro forma for the bank and tell about your history and the financials of the deal. You are trying to convince an underwriter to back you. The numbers have to be there, but it also goes on their opinion of you, so put together a nice presentation.

  • Rental Property Investor · Northern Virginia · Member since 2019 · 793 posts · 620 votes
    5y

    @Julie Williams Agreed. It's going to be interesting to see how things play out when the dust settles and stimulus is no longer available. The tenant/landlord laws is another factor to consider when investing. This is the reason sold all my interests in California. There's great potential there, but the tenant laws can be a pain and the taxes are high.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Julie Williams:

    @Steve Morris If I had $10M I would write novels, not buy property. 

    Write novels about commercial real estate?   Best of both worlds :)

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    Thank you for weighing  in with a fresh and useful perspective, @Joe Splitrock

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    @Tika Eaton That is what I am trying to figure out. I am looking hard at crime statistics, because some of the cities with the best prices in Massachusetts are low priced for a good reason. Fall River is on that list. I am playing my cards close to my chest (looking in none of the towns you mentioned) because I am on what I hope is a buying trip. Once I either have something under contract on the one hand or decide none of these properties are for me on the other, I would be happy for you to pick my brains. Feel free to remind me. Worcester is hot right now- it was the fastest appreciating city in the country, according to Zillow, a few months ago. It would have been nice to buy there a year ago! There is a lot of crime in Worcester and I would be careful as to neighborhood. You also really have to check out what is happening in parks. Overlooking a park used to be a huge plus, but in many Massachusetts cities, particularly with the economic suffering of the pandemic, homeless are camping in them and there is a lot of drug activity and sometimes some violent crime too. Realtor.com has a feature where if a property is listed on the MLS and you click on the map, you can overlay crime maps, the flood plain, and see where schools and grocery stores are. (Since I sometimes look at rural properties I look how far it is to the supermarket- you won't need that. :-)

  • New to Real Estate · Greater Boston · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 18 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Julie Williams:

    @Tika Eaton That is what I am trying to figure out. I am looking hard at crime statistics, because some of the cities with the best prices in Massachusetts are low priced for a good reason. Fall River is on that list. I am playing my cards close to my chest (looking in none of the towns you mentioned) because I am on what I hope is a buying trip. Once I either have something under contract on the one hand or decide none of these properties are for me on the other, I would be happy for you to pick my brains. Feel free to remind me. Worcester is hot right now- it was the fastest appreciating city in the country, according to Zillow, a few months ago. It would have been nice to buy there a year ago! There is a lot of crime in Worcester and I would be careful as to neighborhood. You also really have to check out what is happening in parks. Overlooking a park used to be a huge plus, but in many Massachusetts cities, particularly with the economic suffering of the pandemic, homeless are camping in them and there is a lot of drug activity and sometimes some violent crime too. Realtor.com has a feature where if a property is listed on the MLS and you click on the map, you can overlay crime maps, the flood plain, and see where schools and grocery stores are. (Since I sometimes look at rural properties I look how far it is to the supermarket- you won't need that. :-)

    I agree, We are not big fan of Worcester despite the inventory because of crime rate, we literally saw gun shot marks on one of the neighborhood houses we visited early Jan 2021, after that we stopped going there. Ideally we would like in nicer towns around Hudson, Marlborough etc where we live (So, it will be easy to manage as it is our 1st investment). But the rates are through the roof if we find any Multi. I mean single family is hard to find these days honestly. The numbers are not working for these highly priced homes.

  • Investor · Leominster Ma · Member since 2019 · 305 posts · 162 votes
    5y

    There are a ton of comments here so I didn't read through everything.  Please forgive if I am repeating.  I am buying  vacant multi right now. The loan officer is using market rent estimate as the rent for the application.

  • Real Estate Agent · Worcester, MA · Member since 2018 · 515 posts · 408 votes
    5y

    Much better to buy vacant and pick your tenants then get stuck with the tenants that come with the house.  Second to location is the tenants.  As mentioned above, the banks will use projected rents for the loan as long as the vacancy rate of the area is low.

  • New to Real Estate · Member since 2021 · 104 posts · 30 votes
    5y

    @Tika Eaton I think you should reconsider Worcester. There are good neighborhoods. You just have to learn where they are. I am looking much further West, but the most desirable towns are very expensive to buy in to. In some of the towns the rents are very high too, but in others the prices to buy are high and the rents are surprisingly low. I saw a 5 plex in a popular town with quite a bit of crime, great cash flow, but the building was very poorly maintained. It was section 8 tenants (whom I have nothing against) and it made me sad and angry that the owner wouldn't trade some of that guaranteed income for tightly mounted railings and fresh paint. The deferred maintenance scared me off, because if they aren't fixing loose handrails, which are a safety hazard, God know what else they aren't maintaining. I didn't need a building inspection to tell me the place needed $50,000-$100,000K thrown at it ASAP. I saw a three family that had a ton of work already done on it, that I really liked, in a safer, working class town, and consider buying, but as I dug in to it found out it had a red flag for lead paint, it is just off the flood plain so I wanted flood insurance and all in (million dollar liability policy, umbrella policy and flood insurance) it was going to be over $3000 to insure. There was an empty church for sale three doors down and abandoned warehouses two blocks behind it, none of which will be developed into office condos or residential space anytime soon because of the pandemic. AND it had a sex offender living a couple of blocks away. There is a two family in that town in a better area (no abandoned buildings) that I am considering but it is overpriced by a good $40,000 and they will probably be shocked by what I would offer. I drove by a couple of place in Pittsfield, the only two of eight I was interested in that were not too close to registered sex offenders. I saw a two family with an excellent tenant upstairs that wants to stay but the numbers were weak all around. I saw a cute two family house in a great town but it was so expensive to buy the numbers were terrible, but put in a call to the town planner to ask if I could put a third apartment in the walkout basement. He called back and said yes, and had my agent call on it but it had just gone under contract. I saw another nice two family that was beautiful but I just had a gut reaction against it. In all I only saw six places and drove by three. Using the 1% rule, avoiding sex offenders, the flood plain, and places that need more than 100K of work, there isn't much left to see. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Worcester, MA · Member since 2018 · 515 posts · 408 votes
    5y

    Julie, Wow that is a saga.  You appear to have a lot of things you want to avoid.  But i agree you need to determine what you want so you can focus in on that.  I also agree with you there are great neighborhoods in Worcester and you can do well there.  You need to spend time determining who will live in certain areas due to location, traffic, proximity to shopping/jobs and if parking is important to the potential tenant.  That is why it is important to have a local agent that specializes in rental properties, so you are able to ask them these questions and they can help you tailor your searches.  In Worcester I go out with a buyer group on weekends to show houses, and explain traffic patterns.  It is amazing how much of a difference this makes to create an understanding of the city and its neighborhoods.

  • New to Real Estate · Greater Boston · Member since 2021 · 7 posts · 18 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Julie Williams:

    @Tika Eaton I think you should reconsider Worcester. There are good neighborhoods. You just have to learn where they are. I am looking much further West, but the most desirable towns are very expensive to buy in to. In some of the towns the rents are very high too, but in others the prices to buy are high and the rents are surprisingly low. I saw a 5 plex in a popular town with quite a bit of crime, great cash flow, but the building was very poorly maintained. It was section 8 tenants (whom I have nothing against) and it made me sad and angry that the owner wouldn't trade some of that guaranteed income for tightly mounted railings and fresh paint. The deferred maintenance scared me off, because if they aren't fixing loose handrails, which are a safety hazard, God know what else they aren't maintaining. I didn't need a building inspection to tell me the place needed $50,000-$100,000K thrown at it ASAP. I saw a three family that had a ton of work already done on it, that I really liked, in a safer, working class town, and consider buying, but as I dug in to it found out it had a red flag for lead paint, it is just off the flood plain so I wanted flood insurance and all in (million dollar liability policy, umbrella policy and flood insurance) it was going to be over $3000 to insure. There was an empty church for sale three doors down and abandoned warehouses two blocks behind it, none of which will be developed into office condos or residential space anytime soon because of the pandemic. AND it had a sex offender living a couple of blocks away. There is a two family in that town in a better area (no abandoned buildings) that I am considering but it is overpriced by a good $40,000 and they will probably be shocked by what I would offer. I drove by a couple of place in Pittsfield, the only two of eight I was interested in that were not too close to registered sex offenders. I saw a two family with an excellent tenant upstairs that wants to stay but the numbers were weak all around. I saw a cute two family house in a great town but it was so expensive to buy the numbers were terrible, but put in a call to the town planner to ask if I could put a third apartment in the walkout basement. He called back and said yes, and had my agent call on it but it had just gone under contract. I saw another nice two family that was beautiful but I just had a gut reaction against it. In all I only saw six places and drove by three. Using the 1% rule, avoiding sex offenders, the flood plain, and places that need more than 100K of work, there isn't much left to see. 

    Thank you Julie for such great details, we will keep looking. I haven't looked any this past week but I have to say so many are over priced. We did see one in a very nice town and thought of house hacking because I will be first time home buyer but it was $525k. Our agent was like "a multi home even when you want to house hack is not worth it when the long term tenants are leased at way below market rents. Like $1000/month for a very nice neighborhood with great schools. But hey I am not discouraged we will keep looking!

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