WA Tenants Protected from Discrimination BasedOn Source of Income

WA Tenants Protected from Discrimination BasedOn Source of Income

Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes

I live in Washington State which is very tenant friendly.  I have read and used The Book on Managing Rental Properties as a reference and have always approached the Section 8 question from potential tenants with "income has to be from a verifiable source." as not to use any discriminating language.  However, I just found that it is now (I'm not sure when the law was passed) that you must account for the government assistance in calculating the income.  Here is the example from the site:

*Example: Maria applies for a unit renting for $1,000/month. Maria’s Section 8 Voucher will cover $600 of the rent. The landlord requires all tenants to have a monthly income that is twice the rent amount. Before, Maria’s income would have to be $2,000 to qualify for the apartment. Under this law, the landlord must subtract the voucher amount ($600) from the total rent ($1,000) before calculating if Maria’s income is enough. In this case, Maria’s portion of the rent is $400. So 2x Maria’s portion of rent = $800. Maria’s monthly income only needs to be $800 to qualify.

 We are currently trying to rent our house, which is not Section 8 approved.  If it were, our rent would be $800 less per month than the market value.  

Here is the link to the site where I found this information.

https://www.washingtonlawhelp....

I know rules and laws change all the time. I'm curious how other Washington landlords are approaching this situation?

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Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
5y

I'd avoid even saying 'home not approved for section 8' that has become a housing violation in other states with income 'non-discrimination' criteria. I would simply list your property and proceed as normal. You already said Section 8 pays $800 less than market. You aren't required to reduce the rent to accept a Section 8 tenant, so simply list it and no one on Section 8 will qualify because the rental rate exceeds their voucher. 

Not being able to discriminate on source of income doesn't mean you have to change any of your other criteria.

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  • Joe SplitrockPro Member
    Moderator
    Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @John Boire:

    I live in Washington State which is very tenant friendly.  I have read and used The Book on Managing Rental Properties as a reference and have always approached the Section 8 question from potential tenants with "income has to be from a verifiable source." as not to use any discriminating language.  However, I just found that it is now (I'm not sure when the law was passed) that you must account for the government assistance in calculating the income.  Here is the example from the site:

    *Example: Maria applies for a unit renting for $1,000/month. Maria’s Section 8 Voucher will cover $600 of the rent. The landlord requires all tenants to have a monthly income that is twice the rent amount. Before, Maria’s income would have to be $2,000 to qualify for the apartment. Under this law, the landlord must subtract the voucher amount ($600) from the total rent ($1,000) before calculating if Maria’s income is enough. In this case, Maria’s portion of the rent is $400. So 2x Maria’s portion of rent = $800. Maria’s monthly income only needs to be $800 to qualify.

     We are currently trying to rent our house, which is not Section 8 approved.  If it were, our rent would be $800 less per month than the market value.  

    Here is the link to the site where I found this information.

    https://www.washingtonlawhelp....

    I know rules and laws change all the time. I'm curious how other Washington landlords are approaching this situation?

     

    Voucher is income, it doesn't reduce the income requirement.

    I believe they are interpreting this incorrectly. If a voucher is a source of income, then it is $600 added to the income. If the landlord requires 2X rent for income, then the total income (from all sources) needs to total 2 X $1000 which is $2000. Subtract the $600 voucher and Maria needs to make $1400. 

    Think of it another way. What if rent was $1000 and Maria had a $1000 voucher. Using the example above, Maria would need $0 income to live in the property beyond the voucher. 

    The point of having income 3X rent is so that tenants have enough money to pay for other living expenses (food, clothing, utilities, car, entertainment, etc.). A voucher doesn't reduce other living expenses, so it doesn't reduce income requirement.

    Keep in perspective that this website is free legal help for tenants, so they will naturally bias things towards tenants. I would talk to my own attorney for clarification using my rationale.

    One simple solution is to not accept Section 8 or invest in a different state.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @John Boire:

    I know rules and laws change all the time. I'm curious how other Washington landlords are approaching this situation?

     I bet a lot are just leaving..... :-)

  • Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    5y

    I believe our policy for an applicant with a permanent,  on-going subsidy is still to require income of 3x rent monthly, but reduce it by the amount of their subsidy.

    Say I rent one of my townhouses for $1200. Normal income min is $3600. This applicant could qualify with an income of $3600 minus what sec8 pays hypothetically. 

    My advice as a long-time WA landlord is to stay away from reasons that involve income, criminal background or animals.   Pre-screen like crazy and never put your ph# in a for rent ad, especially if  you're on the West side.  

    Before an applicant even gets the property address, I know how much they smoke and how many animals they have among other things.  The old first come, first serve law taught me a lot. 

  • Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    5y

    You bring up some good points and yes it is a free website so have to read with a grain of salt.  I'm fairly new to the landlord game so just trying to make sure I'm following all the rules as best I can.  Found in other threads that stating 'the house has not been approved for section 8' is acceptable which makes sense so will probably go with that.  Thought about investing in a different state but for now the vision is to get some experience before we do.  We may have to move to AZ like @Bruce Woodruff :-)

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    I'd avoid even saying 'home not approved for section 8' that has become a housing violation in other states with income 'non-discrimination' criteria. I would simply list your property and proceed as normal. You already said Section 8 pays $800 less than market. You aren't required to reduce the rent to accept a Section 8 tenant, so simply list it and no one on Section 8 will qualify because the rental rate exceeds their voucher. 

    Not being able to discriminate on source of income doesn't mean you have to change any of your other criteria.

  • Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    5y

    Good info from everyone above. But please change your 2x example to 3 or 3.5x rent income requirement. 

    You’ll find that you’re actually requiring more and more income from the tenant. The amount section 8 is paying is only covering 3x of 1/3rd it’s amount in rent.

    $1,000 rent and $500 voucher means tenant needs $3,000/mo to qualify. Minus $500 voucher means the tenant needs $2500/mo personal income plus the guaranteed $500/section 8 just to cover their $500/mo portion  (5x their rent share in income)

    $1,000 rent $800 voucher means $3,000 minus $800 or $2200/mo to cover their $200/mo portion. (11x rental share in income) the more the government pays the more the tenant needs to have. 

    It’s kind of perverse the more help the government gives them the better off they have to be to qualify  

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
    Originally posted by @John Boire:

    I know rules and laws change all the time. I'm curious how other Washington landlords are approaching this situation?

     I bet a lot are just leaving..... :-)

     Roger that. We did.

  • Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Bill B.:

    Good info from everyone above. But please change your 2x example to 3 or 3.5x rent income requirement. 

    You’ll find that you’re actually requiring more and more income from the tenant. The amount section 8 is paying is only covering 3x of 1/3rd it’s amount in rent.

    $1,000 rent and $500 voucher means tenant needs $3,000/mo to qualify. Minus $500 voucher means the tenant needs $2500/mo personal income plus the guaranteed $500/section 8 just to cover their $500/mo portion  (5x their rent share in income)

    $1,000 rent $800 voucher means $3,000 minus $800 or $2200/mo to cover their $200/mo portion. (11x rental share in income) the more the government pays the more the tenant needs to have. 

    It’s kind of perverse the more help the government gives them the better off they have to be to qualify  

    You bring up some great points and it honestly took me a few times reading through to understand but it makes sense. Proportionally they are needing a lot more income to cover their portion of rent.  Thanks for the insight

  • Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    I believe our policy for an applicant with a permanent,  on-going subsidy is still to require income of 3x rent monthly, but reduce it by the amount of their subsidy.

    Say I rent one of my townhouses for $1200. Normal income min is $3600. This applicant could qualify with an income of $3600 minus what sec8 pays hypothetically. 

    My advice as a long-time WA landlord is to stay away from reasons that involve income, criminal background or animals.   Pre-screen like crazy and never put your ph# in a for rent ad, especially if  you're on the West side.  

    Before an applicant even gets the property address, I know how much they smoke and how many animals they have among other things.  The old first come, first serve law taught me a lot. 

    Yes I've been advised to do very diligent screening from others as well.  Good to know it's possible but important to be a 'firm-but-fair' managers.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    5y

    This makes perfect sense. Sadly, I believe it is incorrect. Everything I've ever read on this subject states that the landlord subtracts the voucher amount from the total rent and uses the remaining amount to calculate minimum income requirements for the tenant. 

    I tried searching for clarification and found a bunch of tenant help and lawyer sites that calculated it this way. I didn't find anything that calculated it your way. Not saying you're wrong, but I didn't find anything to say you are correct and I wouldn't want to be the test case for this. 

  • Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    In Philly you don’t find out how much the voucher is worth until you are weeks deep in their leasing process. It seems hard to be in the HCV program here.

  • Seattle, WA · Member since 2017 · 275 posts · 223 votes
    5y

    I'm in King County, WA and I've asked this question to various govt' and other experts before and it is clear that the expectation is that the voucher amount is subtracted from rent+utilities  BEFORE applying any income to rent ratio to the balance of the applicant's obligation.   In some way this makes sense because applying to total income first would imply only 1/3 (with a 3x income to rent ratio) of the voucher was for rent,  when in fact 100% of it is directly paid to landlord.   But it does mean applicant can qualify with potentially very little 'real' income.

    Extreme example:   Applicant has $3 in monthly cash income and a $1999 voucher.     You are asking $1900/month + $100/month for utilities,  for a total rent+utilities of $2000 for an available rental that would be covered by the voucher.   You have a 3x rent to income ratio criteria.

    After applying the voucher,  the applicant has $1/month rent obligation and $3/month in income,  so they qualify on the 3x criteria.   (yes,  even though it is absurd that they would be able to live and take care of the unit on $2/month)

    I think you can also consider the applicant's OTHER housing expenses (not paid to you) for example an electric bill,  but you must use a schedule provided by the housing authority for utility type, region,and unit size, and consider any discounts or subsidies that would be given to the applicant on it.  

    When qualifying an applicant,  you also have to consider OTHER subsidies being received by the resident as income.   For example,  if they receive SNAP (food stamp) benefit or even a free cell phone service,   that counts as income as well, but I believe that non-housing subsidies don't have to be counted 100% toward rent.   So it is entirely possible that you could be required  to accept somebody with ZERO verifiable cash income,  for example being required to accept somebody who mathematically won't be able to pay all the rent  (say they have $1900 sec 8 voucher on $2000 rent with 3x income ratio,  and $300/mo SNAP benefit, and zero verifiable cash income)  If you get that situation,  contact an attorney before doing anything else)

    FWIW if you have reasonably strict criteria on prior landlord reference,  credit,  etc.  you will probably weed out most voucher holders though they are steadily passing laws restricting screening intending to make this harder to avoid.  That said if the applicant DOES qualify against all your well-designed criteria after applying the income test the way they want you to,  they probably aren't a much higher risk than any other new applicant and there are some benefits (Sec 8 kept paying during moratorium for example where a lot of unsubsidized lower income renters stopped).  

    All that said,  I'm speaking from observation and questions I've asked to authorities,  I've yet to have a voucher applicant even apply after I discussed qualification standards with them;   and nowadays my PM handles it all.

    You might want to go straight to the horses mouth and ask https://www.kcha.org/ on this, since getting it wrong may open you to a discrimination (on source of income) claim.   They are always looking for more landlords to work with so they will talk to you and answer your questions.




  • Property Manager · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 728 posts · 596 votes
    5y

    @John Boire

    I do not own in Washington state,but I refuse to partner with an entity that does not have my best interests at heart. They have no financial stake or reason to care about my property. I would sell my properties before getting into bed with the government.

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2019 · 5k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    5y

    Discriminator's are going to discriminate no matter what.

    They will just find another valid reason as the excuse.

    And really, does someone want to live in a unit and pay rent to someone that hates them (I know I wouldn't) (???)

    Washington needs to build more public housing like California's Nickerson Gardens.

    Then they can manage it however they want vs. trying to tell American Citizens what to do with their private property.

    We have much more regulation than is needed already.

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    5y

    Why would your rent be $800 below market value?  Using your example, she would still have to pay her half and the govt pays the other.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y

    I raised my credit score requirement when covid hit .Its 700 now .  As far as section 8 , I found the scheduling office a bit rude . I gave them 3 different times to choose from , and they thought that I would work around THEIR schedule . I told them sorry but I set the schedule . 

  • Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:

    Why would your rent be $800 below market value?  Using your example, she would still have to pay her half and the govt pays the other.

    Good point, I had a misunderstanding of how section 8 worked.  I thought the value they gave based on bedrooms and area was the total amount you could charge for rent. It's actually the max amount gov't would assist with.  Thanks for highlighting and making me dig deeper :)

  • Kent, WA · Member since 2016 · 6 posts · 0 votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Brian Hughes:

    I'm in King County, WA and I've asked this question to various govt' and other experts before and it is clear that the expectation is that the voucher amount is subtracted from rent+utilities  BEFORE applying any income to rent ratio to the balance of the applicant's obligation.   In some way this makes sense because applying to total income first would imply only 1/3 (with a 3x income to rent ratio) of the voucher was for rent,  when in fact 100% of it is directly paid to landlord.   But it does mean applicant can qualify with potentially very little 'real' income.

    Extreme example:   Applicant has $3 in monthly cash income and a $1999 voucher.     You are asking $1900/month + $100/month for utilities,  for a total rent+utilities of $2000 for an available rental that would be covered by the voucher.   You have a 3x rent to income ratio criteria.

    After applying the voucher,  the applicant has $1/month rent obligation and $3/month in income,  so they qualify on the 3x criteria.   (yes,  even though it is absurd that they would be able to live and take care of the unit on $2/month)

    I think you can also consider the applicant's OTHER housing expenses (not paid to you) for example an electric bill,  but you must use a schedule provided by the housing authority for utility type, region,and unit size, and consider any discounts or subsidies that would be given to the applicant on it.  

    When qualifying an applicant,  you also have to consider OTHER subsidies being received by the resident as income.   For example,  if they receive SNAP (food stamp) benefit or even a free cell phone service,   that counts as income as well, but I believe that non-housing subsidies don't have to be counted 100% toward rent.   So it is entirely possible that you could be required  to accept somebody with ZERO verifiable cash income,  for example being required to accept somebody who mathematically won't be able to pay all the rent  (say they have $1900 sec 8 voucher on $2000 rent with 3x income ratio,  and $300/mo SNAP benefit, and zero verifiable cash income)  If you get that situation,  contact an attorney before doing anything else)

    FWIW if you have reasonably strict criteria on prior landlord reference,  credit,  etc.  you will probably weed out most voucher holders though they are steadily passing laws restricting screening intending to make this harder to avoid.  That said if the applicant DOES qualify against all your well-designed criteria after applying the income test the way they want you to,  they probably aren't a much higher risk than any other new applicant and there are some benefits (Sec 8 kept paying during moratorium for example where a lot of unsubsidized lower income renters stopped).  

    All that said,  I'm speaking from observation and questions I've asked to authorities,  I've yet to have a voucher applicant even apply after I discussed qualification standards with them;   and nowadays my PM handles it all.

    You might want to go straight to the horses mouth and ask https://www.kcha.org/ on this, since getting it wrong may open you to a discrimination (on source of income) claim.   They are always looking for more landlords to work with so they will talk to you and answer your questions.

    Thanks for the insight Brian!  Glad to hear others in King County are working through similar things.  Right now I'm following with what Brandon listed in his book for screening and it is far more in depth than I could come up with on my own. (600+ credit score, 3x rent, landlord references, etc.)  

    I'll do more digging into the KCHA website too.  Thanks again!

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