staggering late fee of rent charged by PM

staggering late fee of rent charged by PM

Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes

We recently acquired a property with tenants who have been perpetually late paying rent. It didn't dawn on us that our PM has been charging hefty late fees until recently when they sent a statement with the late fee unsuppressed. 

They've always been suppressing this late fee charges. They verbally mentioned it but I was never clear how the late fee impacted us.  

How this late fee works is: If the tenant is late for Month 1, the late fee will be deducted from their month 2 rent and kept by the PM. Now since the rent is now partial - with the late fee deducted, when month 3 rolls around, their month 3 rent will be partial again with the late fee for month 2 deducted. This could go on infinitely... 

They've been charging $350 per month for late fee per tenant. So let's say if the rent is $1000, we only get $650 - management fee - repair.

Now they said that they cannot go back and reverse the late charges if payment has been sent out to us, due to some accounting issue. 

I wanted to work a solution out with them before considering switching, as I always feel like switching PM is an inconvenience for my tenants. 

I would like to hear suggestions and advice. 

P.S. The contract does say the PM keeps the late fee. But it doesn't specify how. In my opinion, late fee can be kept by PM only if full rent is collected for the month. 

Anyone knows solid PMs please recommend as well. 

Thanks!

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
7y

Suggest to them they are improperly handling trust funds and you will be reporting them to your states real estate commission. That will light a fire under their a**.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Ronald RohdePro Member
    Attorney · Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    7y

    Zoe,

    Weve spoken before about all your legal issues. This will continue to happen until you sit down and review all your paperwork and understand what you're signing. I think you're being taken advantage of in this situation. 

    locking out a tenant is not a good idea and will rarely be approved in JP Court. Significant fines. 

  • Corby GoadeBusiness Member
    Investor · Boise, ID · Member since 2014 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Lots of good advice above- it's not right for the PM to deduct the late fee from your rent, especially since they are responsible for screening and finding quality tenants AND collecting the rent from them. It's a lose/lose for you and win/win for them. If you signed a contract that agrees to this, then it's a great and relatively inexpensive lesson for you. If this is a grey area in the contract, I"d allow the PM to clarify and make it right with you- coming to a mutually agreeable solution. If that doesn't happen, industry standard is for a PM agreement to be cancelled by either party with 30 days notice. If that is the case with yours, I'd notify them in writing and shop for a new PM. 

    Best of luck!

  • Investor · Weatherford, TX · Member since 2015 · 43 posts · 40 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:
    Originally posted by @Trent Honea:

    I've self-managed and worked with PMs in Texas. One of the advantages of REI in Texas is the fairly landlord-friendly laws, or the law is silent on the issue and the lease dictates the rules. This can work for or against you, however. To the best of my knowledge, there are no specific laws to cover this situation. The lease dictates how the tenant is charged late fees. Late fees cannot be as high as the rent itself, but otherwise the law is pretty vague and they can be quite high as long as they are clearly stated in the lease.

    Your contract with the PM governs how fees are collected and who keeps them.  They should provide a fee schedule either in your contract or as an attachment.  This is typical best practice, but not mandated by any laws that I know of.

    Be very cautious about doing anything like changing locks.  Not only do you have to let them in if asked, but depending on the city, having locked them out can get an eviction denied.  Some cities are more tenant friendly, others more landlord friendly.  (It's generally cheaper to get the tenant out without going to court, even if you have to pay them to leave.  Search for Cash-for-keys if you need more info on that topic.)

    You need to work this out with your PM or get a new one.  One of the first questions most Texas judges ask the tenant in an eviction proceeding is "Did you pay?" - If they answer yes and can prove it, they deny the eviction.  In your scenario, they DID pay, but the PM did not apply the payment to rent.  That's pretty shaky ground to go to court unless the lease is very well written in my opinion.

    Good luck and let us know how this progresses.

    Thank you Trent. What did you mean by "fee schedule"?

    For eviction, since tenants paid partial rent (when late fee ia deducted), can they be evicted? I heard you have to deny partial payment to evict

    Fee schedule is a list of all fees the PM charges, and whether they go to the PM or to the owner. They should provide you with this information before you sign with them, or at least on request. They might just call it a list of fees or something similar. If they don't have a list and are just making it up as they go, you need to find a new PM and fast. They are your agent and you can be held partially liable if they break the law.

    Evictions can vary greatly by jurisdiction. For example, Dallas tends to be very tenant friendly, where Fort Worth tends to be slightly more landlord friendly. SO much depends on local ordinances and which judge presides. I've only actually been through one eviction in Fort Worth. The tenant had not paid a dime for over two months, and the judge was one who just asks the tenant if they paid. He gave three chances for a yes, but when all he got were excuses he ruled against the tenant. I believe if you have accepted any payment at all, you will have trouble evicting, but I'm not a lawyer. If you go that route definitely get one.

    A couple of years ago I had a problem tenant I thought I'd have to evict.  I called him up, had a discussion with him, and eventually said something like "You don't seem to be really happy in the house any longer.  Are you interested in moving?  Would you like me to let you out of your lease?" and he jumped at the chance.  He wanted to move but did not want to lose the deposit for leaving before the lease end.  I would have offered him some money to help pay moving expenses to avoid going to eviction if it had been necessary.  That process is expensive.

    Happy Investing!

    Disclaimer:  I'm not a lawyer and this information is not intended as legal advice.  These are my experiences and opinions only.  Please consult a lawyer before taking any legal action.  If you are interested in more information on Texas law relating to property, I suggest online search for Texas Property Code, and below are some specific sites to get you started.  All of Texas code is available online, but it's a bit hard to search without a starting point.

    Landlordology.com - Pretty good summary of Texas Landlord-Tenant laws.

    TEXAS PROPERTY CODE - TITLE 8. LANDLORD AND TENANT - CHAPTER 91. PROVISIONS GENERALLY APPLICABLE TO LANDLORDS AND TENANTS

    TEXAS PROPERTY CODE - TITLE 8. LANDLORD AND TENANT - CHAPTER 92. RESIDENTIAL TENANCIES - SUBCHAPTER A. GENERAL PROVISIONS

  • Rental Property Investor · AL TX TN GA AZ · Member since 2019 · 16 posts · 8 votes
    7y

    @ Zoe I would highly recommend you contact your Real Estate Attorney about this. I would also recommend changing the PM as soon as possible...but this may be what we call a "hostile takeover" and they believe they are in control of YOUR asset! Be prepared. If you have a *good* PM come in the tenants will only see the change in the faces of management but nothing more...and sounds like they may be relieved with fresh faces. Good luck!

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 745 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mindy Jensen:

    This scenario sets off a lot of red flags to me. First, I don't agree with locking them out. I'm not familiar with TX law, but everything I've ever read says this is against the law. @Greg H.?

    Your PM sounds like they're trying to hide this from you. While I agree that the late fee from month one should be applied from the payment for month two before the remainder is applied to the rent for month two, this should be more accurately conveyed to the tenant. But your PM hiding the fact that they're collecting late rent is shady.

     The fact that the PM was trying to hide this income imo would be grounds enough for me to immediately look for a new property manager.

    I would have a fit that the property manager decided to take their "late fee" out of the rent.  Because it means that they really haven't collected the late fee.

    Lastly, I have some issues with the property manager making extra money on late fees.  IF you think about it, they need to do their job by screening the tenant and setting expectations that the rent is paid on time.  IF they haven't set themselves up to collect the rent on time, then they kind of aren't doing their job.

    I mean, if they find the right tenants with everything paid on time, then there isn't any extra effort needed to collect the late fees.  I am not a fan of incentivizing the property manager to make more money by having more late fees.

  • Real Estate Agent · Merritt Island, FL · Member since 2017 · 986 posts · 1k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ronald Rohde:

    Zoe,

    Weve spoken before about all your legal issues. This will continue to happen until you sit down and review all your paperwork and understand what you're signing. I think you're being taken advantage of in this situation.  

    Zoe, 

    If this is accurate, it appears you are getting legal advice and ignoring it. I predict a lot of pain (financial and otherwise) until you heed it. Quite frankly, you don't even have to come to BP to know this scenario is messed up. Best advice right now: 

    1. listen to the advice of an attorney on BP who seems to know what he's talking about.  

    2. read #1 again.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Tchaka Owen:
    Originally posted by @Ronald Rohde:

    Zoe,

    Weve spoken before about all your legal issues. This will continue to happen until you sit down and review all your paperwork and understand what you're signing. I think you're being taken advantage of in this situation.  

    Zoe, 

    If this is accurate, it appears you are getting legal advice and ignoring it. I predict a lot of pain (financial and otherwise) until you heed it. Quite frankly, you don't even have to come to BP to know this scenario is messed up. Best advice right now: 

    1. listen to the advice of an attorney on BP who seems to know what he's talking about.  

    2. read #1 again.

    I beleive Ronald referred to my previous PM. We have already filed a complaint to our local court.

    This is a new PM after we fired the previous one.

  • Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2015 · 388 posts · 563 votes
    7y

    @Zoe Lee - fire your PM.

    MG

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    On a different front, what can you do when the tenants are perpetually late, but eventually pay up without paying the late fee? Should the due day be moved to a later day so everyone is happy? Or this is shooting ourselves in the foot? 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:

    On a different front, what can you do when the tenants are perpetually late, but eventually pay up without paying the late fee? Should the due day be moved to a later day so everyone is happy? Or this is shooting ourselves in the foot? 

     Why would you do that?  they'd just pay it late again.  You can talk to them about when their payday is.  Some times it is easier for them to pay twice a month rather than once a month.  If they are late EVERY month, they can't afford the house and I wouldn't renew the lease once it is up.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Theresa Harris:
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:

    On a different front, what can you do when the tenants are perpetually late, but eventually pay up without paying the late fee? Should the due day be moved to a later day so everyone is happy? Or this is shooting ourselves in the foot? 

     Why would you do that?  they'd just pay it late again.  You can talk to them about when their payday is.  Some times it is easier for them to pay twice a month rather than once a month.  If they are late EVERY month, they can't afford the house and I wouldn't renew the lease once it is up.

    Two installments sound like a good idea. Thanks!

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 745 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:

    On a different front, what can you do when the tenants are perpetually late, but eventually pay up without paying the late fee? Should the due day be moved to a later day so everyone is happy? Or this is shooting ourselves in the foot? 

     Don't renew their lease?  We wont deal with habitually late tenants.

    Seriously for us, we might let the first one go with a warning that we can collect late fees.  The next one we would charge, and we would be calling until the rent was paid WITH the late fee.  IF that doesn't work we would file.

    If the tenant is over their heads we might offer to let them out of their lease.

    We have found that paying online, or via credit card (with the tenant paying the cc fee) seems to help in some cases.

    But end of the day you and/or your property manager have set the expectation that paying rent late is acceptable.  Train your tenants or get the out if they don't pay on time.

    Ignoring it or accepting it makes it worse.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    A little update: I contacted the owner of my PM's company, no surprise he refers to the contract which says PM keeps the late fee. When I pointed out that by collecting rents, by definition, they should collect the full rent, and late fee should be in addition which I have no problem for them to keep. No use. 

    But they did update our contract, so according to the new contract, moving forward, they cannot deduct late fees from the rent. But about the 2k late fees that has been taken out of our account, they refused to refund. 

    I mentioned about the state real estate commission for mediation, the owner basically said it's useless because they are not affiliated with them.

    I thought TREC is overseeing all licensed realtors/PMs in the state. 

    I could also file a small claims case. 

    Which option is more effective in getting our money back? TERC, or small claims? I'd like some feedback.  

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Get your atty to write a letter to the shady PM. 

    Then find a PM that isnt a crook! 

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Mary M.:

    Get your atty to write a letter to the shady PM. 

    Then find a PM that isnt a crook! 

    You mean a demand of payment letter?

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    I have no idea. But the atty would know what kind of letter to send that lets the PM know you want your money and you want out of the contract or you will take it up the food chain. 

    If i had lost several thousand $$ i would not let it go without a fight. Sounds to me like the PM knows you wont do anything. 

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    7y

    @Zoe Lee

    Not Affiliated with TREC ? Lol. Well you kinda don’t get that option since you must be licensed to be a property manager in Texas with very few exceptions that they would not meet

    So if they are not affiliated that would mean they are not licensed which is a bigger Problem for them if that is the case

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Zoe Lee

    Not Affiliated with TREC ? Lol. Well you kinda don’t get that option since you must be licensed to be a property manager in Texas with very few exceptions that they would not meet

    So if they are not affiliated that would mean they are not licensed which is a bigger Problem for them if that is the case

    They are licensed. I checked. 

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Zoe Lee

    Not Affiliated with TREC ? Lol. Well you kinda don’t get that option since you must be licensed to be a property manager in Texas with very few exceptions that they would not meet

    So if they are not affiliated that would mean they are not licensed which is a bigger Problem for them if that is the case

    The owner said TREC isn’t associated with property management in Texas. Not sure what to make of it. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes
    7y

    So what y'all are saying, is that there are some people or companies working in real estate that are unscrupulous?

    You got to burn that PM company, and fast. Then google review the crap out of them.

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y

    The format in my post above all messed up, posting again:

    Found this on TREC website: 

    TREC regulates these real estate professionals in Texas: 

    • Real Estate Sales Agents and Brokers 

    • Real Estate Inspectors 

    • Easement and Right-of-Way Agents 

    • Real Estate Education Providers 

    • Real Estate Education Instructors

    • Residential Service Companies (home warranty companies) 

    • Timeshare Plans 

    I don't see property managers. So if TREC don't regulate PMs, which organization does?

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    @Zoe Lee they are licensed as per your comment above.  So they are covered by TREC it sounds like. 

  • Plano, TX · Member since 2017 · 151 posts · 5 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Michael King:

    So what y'all are saying, is that there are some people or companies working in real estate that are unscrupulous?

    You got to burn that PM company, and fast. Then google review the crap out of them.

    How do I do that? Cannot pinpoint which state department regulate property management conduct in TX. I will definitely consult a lawyer for small claims.

    google review for sure, anything else? BBB? Local TV station?

  • Rental Property Investor · Navarre, FL · Member since 2019 · 913 posts · 640 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:
    Originally posted by @Michael King:

    So what y'all are saying, is that there are some people or companies working in real estate that are unscrupulous?

    You got to burn that PM company, and fast. Then google review the crap out of them.

    How do I do that? Cannot pinpoint which state department regulate property management conduct in TX. I will definitely consult a lawyer for small claims.

    google review for sure, anything else? BBB? Local TV station?

    Zoe, I'd google review and yelp but leave the rest alone. Just me, but I wouldn't want to start what I would think to be a smear campaign. That said, some here have pointed out that if they are charging $350 a month in late fees, yet billing the client and not the tenant, then you are the one being screwed. And the BS about the accounting can't be switch. Oh give me a break. 

    Check your lease. It probably says you have to notify them in writing with 30 days notice of terminating your contract with them. Just find another PM, even Renters Warehouse if they exist in your market. 

    I'd start a new thread asking for PM recommendations where you are. I miss Texas, and I miss TexMex food!

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Zoe Lee:
    Originally posted by @Michael King:

    So what y'all are saying, is that there are some people or companies working in real estate that are unscrupulous?

    You got to burn that PM company, and fast. Then google review the crap out of them.

    How do I do that? Cannot pinpoint which state department regulate property management conduct in TX. I will definitely consult a lawyer for small claims.

    google review for sure, anything else? BBB? Local TV station?

    TREC is the oversight agency you need to contact. Why? To be a property manager you must be a licensed RE agent/broker. Agents/brokers are regulated by TREC. At least give them a call in the AM.  

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