Buy a house-hack now vs buy during next recession?

Buy a house-hack now vs buy during next recession?

Rental Property Investor · Oakland · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes

Hey everyone,

Last year, I started looking at multifamily property in Oakland to house hack so I could live cheaply / free while building equity. While the cash flow and numbers can work with the right property, I think a recession is 1-2 years away, so buying now could have some drawbacks since I only plan to stay in the area for ~5 years max.

Below is how I'm thinking about it, but what do you think? Am I off base, have I missed something?

To test my thinking, I created a simple model that projected total cash flow and equity over 5 years if I:

  1. Bought a good, cash-flowing MFH now and recession hit in 2019
  2. Waited and bought an MFH in 2019 during a recession
  3. Waited and bought an MFH in 2020 during a recession

The model assumes that a recession results in a 10-20% drop in housing prices which rebound over 1-2 years. If I don't buy, I would rent for $1300-$1400 / mo by living with a roommate (what I actually do now).

Based on the model, I think waiting to buy makes sense for a few reasons:

  • Buying during a recession is 15%-40% better from an equity and cash flow perspective when compared to buying a deal right now. This is driven by better rent:price ratios during a recession, not buying high and going through the rollercoaster of house value fluctuation, etc.
  • I can afford a house in a better location once house values fall in a recession

Obviously, waiting to buy obviously only works if I am still employed and can get a mortgage approved in a recession. I think I can make that work given my work situation and how much I can save each month to meet higher down payment requirements when lending tightens up.

Thanks in advance for your thoughts!

Eric

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Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 361 posts · 296 votes
8y

Hi @Eric Li,

Mentality: You and I are very much alike; you are very analytical, which is a gift, but it also can trick you into thinking you can outsmart the future and mathematically win at investing. The Cure for analysts like us is to take action after crafting one plan and sticking to it. Now matter what, set your plan with (on this date, when values going down 18.785%, when I have $x,...) and then stick to the plan.

Economics: A recession is a good time to buy discounted properties, but it's also a good time to be a Holder. Buyers that over-leveraged themselves are now pushed into the renter's market, increasing demand but supply is stagnant, increasing the prices, which in turn increases the value of your rental. There are two sides to every coin.

Potential Plan: Let's pretend you don't wait and buy something today that cash flows or breaks even. If your property value drops 20% in 2019, your loan is locked in and is still being partially paid off monthly. Sure you can now say you 'overpaid' but you have your Househack and life's dandy.

You're thinking very intelligently, just remember to take action, my friend. That's the best thing I ever did.

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  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 730 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    if you think there is going to be a 20% drop in real estate prices in the Bay Area over the next 2 years, you’re going to be sorely disappointed. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    Saj, good push there. Sounds like your position is that strong migration trends, limited housing supply, lots of companies in the area means house prices are unlikely to fall right? What else do you think ensures a drop isn't going to happen?

    My hunch about a drop comes from the fact that the last 3 downturns resulted in 10-27% drops in housing values (see data). We've also gone quite a bit past the last peak in 2008. The tech sector is a lot more established now however, so that would insulate the bay area unless there's a shock to the tech sector.

    What do you think? Am I way off? What do you think I'm missing?

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 824 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    My knowledge of the Bay Area market is limited, but isn't Oakland still relatively a depressed real estate area in terms of prices?

    I would see what type of growth has happened over 5 years in your area -- for instance I like properties that have modest appreciation because I am a cash flow investor. I want properties that make me money month-over-month. Appreciation is just icing on the cake. Places with a wild swing always concern me -- its too speculative (read: risky) to last. I've heard the Bay Area is extremely speculative and prices are out of control.

    Then again, if you're buying in Oakland to house hack, and the numbers are right -- the hack covers PITI, perhaps CapEx, maintenance, etc., and gives you some profit every month -- and the rental market is strong, why would you wait for something that may or may not happen?

    Saj makes a good point -- can you really expect a price drop of 20% in the Bay Area over the next few years?

  • Real Estate Agent · Minneapolis, MN · Member since 2016 · 361 posts · 296 votes
    8y

    Hi @Eric Li,

    Mentality: You and I are very much alike; you are very analytical, which is a gift, but it also can trick you into thinking you can outsmart the future and mathematically win at investing. The Cure for analysts like us is to take action after crafting one plan and sticking to it. Now matter what, set your plan with (on this date, when values going down 18.785%, when I have $x,...) and then stick to the plan.

    Economics: A recession is a good time to buy discounted properties, but it's also a good time to be a Holder. Buyers that over-leveraged themselves are now pushed into the renter's market, increasing demand but supply is stagnant, increasing the prices, which in turn increases the value of your rental. There are two sides to every coin.

    Potential Plan: Let's pretend you don't wait and buy something today that cash flows or breaks even. If your property value drops 20% in 2019, your loan is locked in and is still being partially paid off monthly. Sure you can now say you 'overpaid' but you have your Househack and life's dandy.

    You're thinking very intelligently, just remember to take action, my friend. That's the best thing I ever did.

  • Real Estate Agent · Hamilton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 464 posts · 311 votes
    8y

    I understand your thought process of buying during a recession but people have speculated about a potential recession for years now and it hasn't happened.  Although I personally think that we are certainly getting closer and closer towards a potentially correction, there's just no guarantee that this is truly the case.  

    In your original post, you mention that you want to house hack so you can live cheaply/free while building equity. Then you go on to say that if you don't buy, you would rent a place with a roommate in order to cut expenses (great idea) but assuming that you can house hack and live for free or at the very least for a fraction what your rent would be, wouldn't that still be better then shelling out money for rent? Yes, there might be some upfront outlay of money but with the opportunity to obtain FHA loans with only 3.5% down, that's nothing in the grand scheme of things. Even if a downturn is looming upon us, I would think that you would still benefit in the long-term from buying now. By house hacking and living for free now, you'll be able to save a lot of money every month which could be used to buy more properties during a recession.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    Hey Joe, thanks for your input! You're absolutely right that compared to SF, Oakland is relatively depressed. At the same time, median home prices have about doubled in the last 4-5 years (see Trulia trends) largely driven by how crazy SF house prices have gotten. When a downturn hits, I expect all of SF housing to take a hit, with Oakland included in there.

    Definitely agree that appreciation is icing on the cake and that cash flow should be the priority. With that in mind, it still seems like buying a better house or one at a lower price point in a recession is the right move since lower price point means lower mortage, PITI, etc in a world where rents would not be hit as much in a recession.

    But, you're right I cannot predict the future, so if I think rental market is strong, that is a case for acting now rather than waiting for something unknown ahead.

  • Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 500 votes
    8y

    If you find a good deal buy it. As long as you're not over leveraged, cash flow, and have reserves to weather a storm, you should make out well in the long game. It's expected that property values will decrease potentially drastically a few times in your life time. Waiting though for that moment may mean you're on the sideline for many years though. Line yourself up in a position to buy again when that time comes too. 

  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    8y

    @Eric Li If you can find a 3- or 4-unit property in the Bay Area that you can cash flow for 3.5% down, buy it immediately.  You're young.  It will work out for you marvelously in the long run.  And then if your income and cash reserves permit, buy another one with conventional financing in a year or two.

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  • Real Estate Agent · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2017 · 523 posts · 362 votes
    8y

    @Eric Li I am in the exact same situation as you Eric just in a different area. One thing I often take for granted is the pricing here in San Antonio. Luckily the one difference besides our market is I live with my parents still for free so I'm not having to shell out money for rent every month and just save that money. You are right pricing right now is ridiculous people are asking 2-3 times the appraised value because it is very hot right now. For people like me that don't have that capital and aren't smoking crack I realize how bad almost all these deals are when you look at the numbers. My mindset is that I am still diligently looking for deals right now and making sure they CASH FLOW, if I find a great deal of course I will buy it instead of waiting for the possibility of a price decrease in the future. I don't want to wait because right now great deals are hard to find and are getting swallowed up right away so you can't wait on those. However if I don't find one for some reason before the recession or dip hits I am more than okay with that, because I know I will have the capital from saving up, connections from networking, and the wisdom from evaluating deals every day to get a good property and an even better price due to the recession. I think you will do great due to your intelligence and analytical mindset just don't let that get you into analysis paralysis. Good luck!

  • Norristown, PA · Member since 2015 · 40 posts · 7 votes
    8y

    @Logan Allec Hello! Is it possible to buy another 4unit a year after an FHA loan with conventional financing if you don't want to occupy it? If it's strictly investment will the conventional loan fall under a different guideline or requirement than the standard 20% down? This falls in line with my plan after i close on my 4 unit this year. I'd love to purchase another 4 unit in 2019!

  • Rental Property Investor · Salem, NH · Member since 2016 · 460 posts · 276 votes
    8y

    @Eric Li What happens when the recession doesn't hit in 2019 or 2020? What if in 2019 or 2020 you keep waiting and waiting and then never make a purchase...

    My suggestion would be to continue to stay on the lookout for a MFH in your area and pull the trigger when you find a good deal. Get pre-approval ready and have it renewed every so often so the numbers are up to date and you can make an offer when you want.

    Good luck!

  • Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 824 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Chanise P.:

    @Logan Allec Hello! Is it possible to buy another 4unit a year after an FHA loan with conventional financing if you don't want to occupy it? If it's strictly investment will the conventional loan fall under a different guideline or requirement than the standard 20% down? This falls in line with my plan after i close on my 4 unit this year. I'd love to purchase another 4 unit in 2019!

    I believe this shouldn't be a problem, but you will likely have to have 25% down, and calculate another 5-10% in closing costs. If you don't have that in reserves, it'll be an issue for you and whatever bank you wish to work with.

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    Here's what I would suggest. Never believe that any of us can call the next recession. Even if you think you have a good case, that doesn't mean anything. What are you going to do in 2 or 3 years if you still haven't bought anything and prices are up another 15 or 20% in your area. Wait another 2 or 3 years because you're positive that it will happen then? And if it doesn't? Wait another 2 or 3 years????

    The thing with real estate is that there are always deals to be had. How many and how often they come along is the only difference. But all you need is one. Find one that has decent cash flow and grab it. In 20 years, it won't matter when a recession would have hit. You'll have a paid off building by then.....

  • Logan AllecBusiness Member
    Accountant · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 980 votes
    8y

    @Chanise P. since it's not owner-occupied you may have to put 25% down.  I am not a lender so don't quote me on that but this is my understanding.

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  • Investor · Hayward, CA · Member since 2015 · 83 posts · 72 votes
    8y
    I too believe a recession is on the horizon, if for no other reason than everybody appears to be bullish with no great threats on the horizon. I vividly recall sentiment in 1999 and 2006. This matches. The bay area has always been cyclical as well, a glance over the last 30 years shows significant drops but always higher highs. I’m currently a multifamily buyer but see very little that meets my underwriting standards. Sellers are putting out pro forma’s with 3% vacancy allowances and other such nonsense. That will not be a constant going forward. However, If you can find the right deal that works for you today and won’t have you overleveraged, buying in the bay area now is not a bad idea at all, come what may.
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    8y

    As I was staring at that graph showing double digit declines three times I was very surprised, and thinking it couldnt be true.....then it jumped out that the graph is not showing the entirety of housing in the bay area....the graph is only showing "High Priced Tier Homes".  Both high priced tiered homes and low priced tiered homes are more volatile than the market in general, as a general rule.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland, CA · Member since 2014 · 730 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric Li almost all of my properties are on low 30 year fixed rate financing. I have huge cash flow buffers (average $2,000/month net cash flow per property), so in the unlikely possibility that my rents go down by 50%, I will break even cash flow wise. Furthermore, I could make the argument that rents go up in a downturn. 

    Additionally, I don't care what happens to the value. I never need to sell. That's the beauty of being cash flow positive and having long term fixed rate financing. If the values of my properties go down by 30%, I would be upset, but I'd also go out and buy a ton more, and load up on as much debt as a bank would give me. I can ride out any downturn. 

    The main reason why I don't see a looming recession is supply. There just isn't any. The last downturn was debt related - anyone with a pulse could get a mortgage. It's quite more difficult this time around. People actually qualify for the debt they are taking on. 

    Unless there is a massive earthquake or a mass tech exodus, I am confident I will be just fine. Those that have negative cash flow or are way over-leveraged will have problems. 

  • Investor · Los Altos, CA · Member since 2014 · 942 posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric Li the problem with your analysis is that is all based upon assumptions that are 100% outside of your control.  You have no ability to effect any of the factors in your basic assumption that there will be a recession in 2019 or that price will drop by 10%-27%.  Remember the first rule of investing is that past history is NOT an indicator of future performance.  There is no way to reliably guess when the next down turn will come.  During your waiting period you could be missing massive growth.  If you look through older BP posts on this topic, people have been saying the same thing you are saying for years.  In my recent personal experience, I had people saying the same thing about a pending down turn 5 years ago.  But I got into the market and I have benefited from that decision.  My property values have doubled, and my rents have on average increased 2.5x.  If I had based my decision upon the graphs and historical trends, I would have ended up missing all of this upside.  I bought again in 2015 and 2016.  All of my properties have gone up substantially in value along with the associated rents.  The only reason I did not buy in either 2014 or 2017 was because I was working on cash out refi's to get ready for my next round of purchases.

    The key is to understand that a market like the BA is a buy and hold location.  As @Brett Goldsmith has stated, the main point is to find a true deal.  If you buy at market, do so knowing that you have down side exposure.  Also as @Nathan Platter advocates, you need to take action or you will be left on the side lines.  As a final shout out, listen to @Account Closed.  He is blowing things up in Oakland while there are a ton of people just watching the months tick by and the deals get picked up.

  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    @Nathan Platter, it sounds like we are indeed alike, and that action is key once I've done my homework and planning. Thanks!

    @Christopher Giannino, I agree I can save a lot each month via house hacking, even if a downturn were to hit, appreciate the push!

    @Logan Allec, sounds like the right game plan, especially with 3.5% funding. Will be buckling down to find those deals and opportunities.

    @Michael Guzik, shout out to a fellow Texan (I grew up in Houston). I think it's a great idea to aggressively look for deals that cash flow and to learn, network, and gain from that experience like you said.

    @Steve DellaPelle and @Mike H., great idea about keeping my eyes open and being ready to move quickly when I spot a great deal. Thanks.

    @Account Closed, you're right I can't impact any of those assumptions, and I agree sitting out could mean missing out on growth.

    Thanks so much for the great advice folks. After all this, I think I'll be hunting for a good deal and getting my financing lined up so I can jump when I find the right deal.

  • Hayward, CA · Member since 2017 · 91 posts · 40 votes
    8y
    If you are only looking to hold it for 5 years, then you definitely have to bet on a good appreciation growth, since selling the house down the line cost money. You actually have to bet on the market going up for at least 10% in the next year to make a little bit of money if any. It would be difficult to get a multi-family unit in Oakland that doesn’t come with tenants already in place with rent control.
  • Real Estate Agent · Hamilton, NJ · Member since 2013 · 464 posts · 311 votes
    8y
    @Eric Li My biggest mistake is back about 3 years ago I was in the same boat as you. At the time, there were talks about how a recession was right around the corner and me not knowing anything about real estate, I decided to wait it out. I realized that in a blink of an eye 2 years had past and I was still waiting for a this damn recession to hit. I had missed out on potential opportunities but most importantly, I missed out on time I could of been investing. Make sure you do your due dilligence to buy right but the key is to take action now on good deals. If you're strategy is to buy and hold for cashflow, it's a long term strategy so as the others have said what happens 2 years from now doesn't matter. Best of luck!!
  • Rental Property Investor · Oakland · Member since 2016 · 19 posts · 10 votes
    8y

    @JingJing He, good point on the rent-control angle. that's on my radar to look into, but curious if you have any resources or summaries of key, relevant rental laws that you've come across?

    @Christopher Giannino, guess I need to learn from your experience! Will do my homework to analyze, buy right, and jump on good deal. appreciate it!

  • Multifamily Syndicator · Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    8y

    @Eric Li Waiting for a "proverbial market correction" is a quick way to atrophy on years, which can have been used to invest, learn, and, yes, make mistakes :) 

    I'd say get out of the analysis paralysis boat and jump into the ocean of possibilities (oh, make sure you grab a shark cage you might need it).

    Hope this helps. Goodluck. Thanks! - Ola

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2017 · 16 posts · 9 votes
    8y
    Housing prices have increased above 2008 levels in some areas, but you are mainly seeing this in large urban cities. Which, just so happens to be where everyone is moving to (Millennials). While I can see your fear of over paying, don’t get caught in a what if scenario, go with your cash flow now if it works.
  • Ian WalshBusiness Member
    Lender · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    I wouldn't overthink this.  Better deals are found in a down market. 

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