'small' vs 'bigger' property management companies

'small' vs 'bigger' property management companies

Bay Area · Member since 2016 · 82 posts · 55 votes

[loose definitions - 'small' being mom & pop shop managing less than 100 units. 'big' being anything bigger with staff, software, typically managing no less than 400 units.]

What has your experience been with your property manager? I understand there's different tradeoffs between a bigger team who has more on-call availability, charges more fees, is a bit less communicative and has the means to be a bit 'sloppier' since they have more wiggle room to vs a smaller team. 

What's worked for you in this market? Why did you choose the PM that you did? Why didn't you go with something bigger or smaller? 

0Reply
142 views

Most Popular Reply

Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
7y
Originally posted by @Albert L.:

[loose definitions - 'small' being mom & pop shop managing less than 100 units. 'big' being anything bigger with staff, software, typically managing no less than 400 units.]

What has your experience been with your property manager? I understand there's different tradeoffs between a bigger team who has more on-call availability, charges more fees, is a bit less communicative and has the means to be a bit 'sloppier' since they have more wiggle room to vs a smaller team. 

What's worked for you in this market? Why did you choose the PM that you did? Why didn't you go with something bigger or smaller? 

With a small Property Manager you are going to get a more personalized service. These folks will know your name, know the name of your tenants & be available via cell phone. A lot of people really like this & automatically equate it to a better level of service. Is it though?

Thing is small Property Management outfits don't make any money. This is one of the worst kept secrets in the business. We are all in business to make money so the small Property Management outfit is probably a version of a couple frequently seen scenarios.

They are just starting. 

  • They are coming in & taking market share to grow their business. If you catch a Property Manager on the way up you'll get some great service at a great price. A negative to this are that the low prices may not last long. If they succeed in growing their business the personal service you have been receiving will be replaced with streamlined & automated systems. These systems come with a larger overhead, which of course means your price is going up. 
  • Another negative to the Property Manager who is just starting out is that they are unproven. They will be learning & tweaking their model using your properties. The scenarios they encounter with your properties may be the very 1st time they've encounted them. There is no guarantee they make the right choices & actually grow their business to a profitable level. The burnout rate is high in the Property Management business as it's so freakin savage. You may find your small rising Property Manager belly up one day.

They aren't capable of growing a large business.

  • Not all folks in business are business savvy. We all know this. I have seen many a folk run a very small Property Management business on the side to supplement a low sales commission business. Again a small Property Management business doesn't really make money when you break it all down. The margins are just so thin if it's not large enough it runs in the red. So what you've got is an unsophisticated business owner who's commingling & supplementing revenue from their management business along with their real estate sales business that is more or less failing. Sure they know your name & answer you texts, but is that as important as them knowing how to properly make money in the industry you've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in?

Now if you're a very active investor who wants to be very hands on & in control of their portfolio the small Property Manger could be ideal as you can more or less treat them like an employee. They don't have sophisticated systems in place so you can probably mold them into doing exactly what you want. A large Property Manager will not allow anything like that to take place.  Just remember employees equal turnover so you're not going to be able to set it & forget it. You will more or less be the real property manager who's got some boots on the ground pseudo employees working under him.

With all of that said I think a large Property Management business is the right solution for most everyone who doesn't want to be the real defacto property manager. When you are working in such a volatile business you want to work with the best. You want to work with the industry leaders. They didn't get big by accident. These folks have proven systems in place & have invested millions into their businesses so that they are operating like  large machine with many moving parts. Will you be able to text them & get a reply? Probably not. Will you be able to speak with the owner directly often? Unlikely. Will they know what to do when trouble arrives? Absolutely. That is what you're hiring them for. Not a pal that returns text messages.

See this reply in the discussion

11 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Rental Property Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2016 · 37 posts · 19 votes
    7y

    As someone who is local, but has purchased several houses from out of state investors that have used property management companies the best thing I can say is definitely do your due diligence.  

    The amount of seemingly small issues I've encountered from my tenants that were just simply not address, neglected, or the work was done so poorly it had to be done again is more times than I can count on my hands. I can't speak to who the PMs were or their size that managed these properties, but there's probably more mediocre PMs out there than great. Size is probably somewhat irrelevant.

    Property management should be one of four essential partners in your portfolio so take the time to find the right one, vet their process, understand their response time, ask for references, and whatever else you need to do that makes you feel comfortable with them as your feet on the street.

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Greensboro, NC · Member since 2010 · 623 posts · 615 votes
    7y

    @Albert L. - I have used different property management companies over the years and also owned my own company (managing about 300 properties).

    I don't know that size has anything to do with making a decision. At least, that's not what I've found.

    One thing I do avoid is the franchised management companies. They will absolutely eat you up with their unnecessary fees. That's how they're able to pay their franchise fees. I'm not mentioning any names....

    But local small or large doesn't matter to me. Service and communication make all the difference. I'll certainly pay more for a great company.

    How to find them? Check lots of current and past clients to get true feedback. I'm happy to give opinions on any I've used and I find that, when I ask others, they freely share their personal experiences. WAY more important than which technology (if any) they use.

    In fact, the best company I use that I recommend to everyone local is owned by an 85 year old woman. She and her 65 year old daughter manage almost 900 single family homes and they don't even have email! They are by far the best company I've ever used.

    Good luck to you!

  • Investor · Thousand Oaks, CA · Member since 2016 · 126 posts · 47 votes
    7y

    Good PM is hard to find gem. That's why Cleveland local landlords get better return than OOS  investors. Nobody cares about your properties more than yourself.

  • Real Estate Coach · Venice Beach, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    7y

    Older article, but same question-

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/renewsblog/2016/06/2...

    I've so far had luck with smaller ones and very little luck with the bigger ones. I'm sure there are good big ones out there though.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Albert L.:

    [loose definitions - 'small' being mom & pop shop managing less than 100 units. 'big' being anything bigger with staff, software, typically managing no less than 400 units.]

    What has your experience been with your property manager? I understand there's different tradeoffs between a bigger team who has more on-call availability, charges more fees, is a bit less communicative and has the means to be a bit 'sloppier' since they have more wiggle room to vs a smaller team. 

    What's worked for you in this market? Why did you choose the PM that you did? Why didn't you go with something bigger or smaller? 

    With a small Property Manager you are going to get a more personalized service. These folks will know your name, know the name of your tenants & be available via cell phone. A lot of people really like this & automatically equate it to a better level of service. Is it though?

    Thing is small Property Management outfits don't make any money. This is one of the worst kept secrets in the business. We are all in business to make money so the small Property Management outfit is probably a version of a couple frequently seen scenarios.

    They are just starting. 

    • They are coming in & taking market share to grow their business. If you catch a Property Manager on the way up you'll get some great service at a great price. A negative to this are that the low prices may not last long. If they succeed in growing their business the personal service you have been receiving will be replaced with streamlined & automated systems. These systems come with a larger overhead, which of course means your price is going up. 
    • Another negative to the Property Manager who is just starting out is that they are unproven. They will be learning & tweaking their model using your properties. The scenarios they encounter with your properties may be the very 1st time they've encounted them. There is no guarantee they make the right choices & actually grow their business to a profitable level. The burnout rate is high in the Property Management business as it's so freakin savage. You may find your small rising Property Manager belly up one day.

    They aren't capable of growing a large business.

    • Not all folks in business are business savvy. We all know this. I have seen many a folk run a very small Property Management business on the side to supplement a low sales commission business. Again a small Property Management business doesn't really make money when you break it all down. The margins are just so thin if it's not large enough it runs in the red. So what you've got is an unsophisticated business owner who's commingling & supplementing revenue from their management business along with their real estate sales business that is more or less failing. Sure they know your name & answer you texts, but is that as important as them knowing how to properly make money in the industry you've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in?

    Now if you're a very active investor who wants to be very hands on & in control of their portfolio the small Property Manger could be ideal as you can more or less treat them like an employee. They don't have sophisticated systems in place so you can probably mold them into doing exactly what you want. A large Property Manager will not allow anything like that to take place.  Just remember employees equal turnover so you're not going to be able to set it & forget it. You will more or less be the real property manager who's got some boots on the ground pseudo employees working under him.

    With all of that said I think a large Property Management business is the right solution for most everyone who doesn't want to be the real defacto property manager. When you are working in such a volatile business you want to work with the best. You want to work with the industry leaders. They didn't get big by accident. These folks have proven systems in place & have invested millions into their businesses so that they are operating like  large machine with many moving parts. Will you be able to text them & get a reply? Probably not. Will you be able to speak with the owner directly often? Unlikely. Will they know what to do when trouble arrives? Absolutely. That is what you're hiring them for. Not a pal that returns text messages.

  • Cleveland, OH · Member since 2018 · 61 posts · 21 votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Albert L.:

    [loose definitions - 'small' being mom & pop shop managing less than 100 units. 'big' being anything bigger with staff, software, typically managing no less than 400 units.]

    What has your experience been with your property manager? I understand there's different tradeoffs between a bigger team who has more on-call availability, charges more fees, is a bit less communicative and has the means to be a bit 'sloppier' since they have more wiggle room to vs a smaller team. 

    What's worked for you in this market? Why did you choose the PM that you did? Why didn't you go with something bigger or smaller? 

    With a small Property Manager you are going to get a more personalized service. These folks will know your name, know the name of your tenants & be available via cell phone. A lot of people really like this & automatically equate it to a better level of service. Is it though?

    Thing is small Property Management outfits don't make any money. This is one of the worst kept secrets in the business. We are all in business to make money so the small Property Management outfit is probably a version of a couple frequently seen scenarios.

    They are just starting. 

    • They are coming in & taking market share to grow their business. If you catch a Property Manager on the way up you'll get some great service at a great price. A negative to this are that the low prices may not last long. If they succeed in growing their business the personal service you have been receiving will be replaced with streamlined & automated systems. These systems come with a larger overhead, which of course means your price is going up. 
    • Another negative to the Property Manager who is just starting out is that they are unproven. They will be learning & tweaking their model using your properties. The scenarios they encounter with your properties may be the very 1st time they've encounted them. There is no guarantee they make the right choices & actually grow their business to a profitable level. The burnout rate is high in the Property Management business as it's so freakin savage. You may find your small rising Property Manager belly up one day.

    They aren't capable of growing a large business.

    • Not all folks in business are business savvy. We all know this. I have seen many a folk run a very small Property Management business on the side to supplement a low sales commission business. Again a small Property Management business doesn't really make money when you break it all down. The margins are just so thin if it's not large enough it runs in the red. So what you've got is an unsophisticated business owner who's commingling & supplementing revenue from their management business along with their real estate sales business that is more or less failing. Sure they know your name & answer you texts, but is that as important as them knowing how to properly make money in the industry you've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in?

    Now if you're a very active investor who wants to be very hands on & in control of their portfolio the small Property Manger could be ideal as you can more or less treat them like an employee. They don't have sophisticated systems in place so you can probably mold them into doing exactly what you want. A large Property Manager will not allow anything like that to take place.  Just remember employees equal turnover so you're not going to be able to set it & forget it. You will more or less be the real property manager who's got some boots on the ground pseudo employees working under him.

    With all of that said I think a large Property Management business is the right solution for most everyone who doesn't want to be the real defacto property manager. When you are working in such a volatile business you want to work with the best. You want to work with the industry leaders. They didn't get big by accident. These folks have proven systems in place & have invested millions into their businesses so that they are operating like  large machine with many moving parts. Will you be able to text them & get a reply? Probably not. Will you be able to speak with the owner directly often? Unlikely. Will they know what to do when trouble arrives? Absolutely. That is what you're hiring them for. Not a pal that returns text messages.

     Who are the top 10 biggest property managers in Cleveland?

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Igor T.:
    Originally posted by @James Wise:
    Originally posted by @Albert L.:

    [loose definitions - 'small' being mom & pop shop managing less than 100 units. 'big' being anything bigger with staff, software, typically managing no less than 400 units.]

    What has your experience been with your property manager? I understand there's different tradeoffs between a bigger team who has more on-call availability, charges more fees, is a bit less communicative and has the means to be a bit 'sloppier' since they have more wiggle room to vs a smaller team. 

    What's worked for you in this market? Why did you choose the PM that you did? Why didn't you go with something bigger or smaller? 

    With a small Property Manager you are going to get a more personalized service. These folks will know your name, know the name of your tenants & be available via cell phone. A lot of people really like this & automatically equate it to a better level of service. Is it though?

    Thing is small Property Management outfits don't make any money. This is one of the worst kept secrets in the business. We are all in business to make money so the small Property Management outfit is probably a version of a couple frequently seen scenarios.

    They are just starting. 

    • They are coming in & taking market share to grow their business. If you catch a Property Manager on the way up you'll get some great service at a great price. A negative to this are that the low prices may not last long. If they succeed in growing their business the personal service you have been receiving will be replaced with streamlined & automated systems. These systems come with a larger overhead, which of course means your price is going up. 
    • Another negative to the Property Manager who is just starting out is that they are unproven. They will be learning & tweaking their model using your properties. The scenarios they encounter with your properties may be the very 1st time they've encounted them. There is no guarantee they make the right choices & actually grow their business to a profitable level. The burnout rate is high in the Property Management business as it's so freakin savage. You may find your small rising Property Manager belly up one day.

    They aren't capable of growing a large business.

    • Not all folks in business are business savvy. We all know this. I have seen many a folk run a very small Property Management business on the side to supplement a low sales commission business. Again a small Property Management business doesn't really make money when you break it all down. The margins are just so thin if it's not large enough it runs in the red. So what you've got is an unsophisticated business owner who's commingling & supplementing revenue from their management business along with their real estate sales business that is more or less failing. Sure they know your name & answer you texts, but is that as important as them knowing how to properly make money in the industry you've invested hundreds of thousands of dollars in?

    Now if you're a very active investor who wants to be very hands on & in control of their portfolio the small Property Manger could be ideal as you can more or less treat them like an employee. They don't have sophisticated systems in place so you can probably mold them into doing exactly what you want. A large Property Manager will not allow anything like that to take place.  Just remember employees equal turnover so you're not going to be able to set it & forget it. You will more or less be the real property manager who's got some boots on the ground pseudo employees working under him.

    With all of that said I think a large Property Management business is the right solution for most everyone who doesn't want to be the real defacto property manager. When you are working in such a volatile business you want to work with the best. You want to work with the industry leaders. They didn't get big by accident. These folks have proven systems in place & have invested millions into their businesses so that they are operating like  large machine with many moving parts. Will you be able to text them & get a reply? Probably not. Will you be able to speak with the owner directly often? Unlikely. Will they know what to do when trouble arrives? Absolutely. That is what you're hiring them for. Not a pal that returns text messages.

     Who are the top 10 biggest property managers in Cleveland?

     There is really only 3 major players in the space. Listed below in no particular order. 

    • Holton-Wise (my company)
    • One of the local Re/Max offices
    • Cleveland Property Management
  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 172 posts · 122 votes
    7y

    @Albert L. I have used Holton Wise to manage my investment property in Cleveland, and so far I have no complaints. I live in L.A. and my advice is that you want an experienced management company that has lots of properties and is well known so you can sleep better at night. Me not worrying about my property is HUGE. Hope this helps and good luck with you investments.

  • Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    7y
    Originally posted by @Ramon Flores:

    @Albert L. I have used Holton Wise to manage my investment property in Cleveland, and so far I have no complaints. I live in L.A. and my advice is that you want an experienced management company that has lots of properties and is well known so you can sleep better at night. Me not worrying about my property is HUGE. Hope this helps and good luck with you investments.

     Glad things are going well with your portfolio Ramon. Thanks for the shout out.

  • Rental Property Investor · Toronto, Ontario · Member since 2012 · 538 posts · 298 votes
    7y

    It also depends on what kind of product you want managed. If you are holding a few single family homes, some PM's will not touch it (even if they are Class A).

    The company I work with in Cleveland runs ~1000 units so qualifies as 'big' as defined by the OP. Having said that, they focus on mid size (>10 units) multifamily or clustered single family. They will NOT take on a client that has 1 or 2 single family home.

    Even though they are 'big', when I first started to work with them, I was not satisfied with the level of monthly reporting and asked for some customized weekly reports. Now 4 years later, they are still producing these reports for me. As well, I can and do speak to both the feet on the ground PM responsible for my property regularly. Also, if I have any questions regarding expenses, rent roll, etc - I can and do speak to the controller and other staff without any problem.

    They are responsive (to tenants and me), flexible but not magicians.  Anyone that wants a referral can DM me for more information.

    Oren

  • Investor · Tempe, AZ · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 731 votes
    7y

    Interesting thread for sure.  

    Not sure I agree with the big vs small argument.  The way I see it, both have access to the same technology and with more advanced technology being released it can help optimize any business.  Regardless of size.

    I've had the luxury of talking to a lot of different management firms.  It's interesting to hear their takes.

    Why are you small?

    • Capped Limit:  They don't want to manage that many properties as the broker, so they place a cap limit of X units.
      • Sales:  They still do regular sales but don't want to detract from this service
      • Quality:  They feel under their limit allows them to maintain quality.  Perhaps even charge more.
    • Capped Area:  Especially in a large metro like Cleveland, they don't want to travel all across town all day address issues.  I know PM's who only manage in Medina, others who'll manage within a 30 min drive of their office in Akron.
    • Growing the biz:  They recently started their business but are still growing their assets under management.

    Why are you big?

    • Franchise:  They have the operational support of a franchise behind them.  Although they need volume due to the sunk royalty cost.
    • PM Only:  Their business is only management oriented, therefore they can apply all of their efforts into the same tasks and systems.  Which allows them to take on more clients.

    The question shouldn't be if a small or big firm is the right choice.  Here's what I would focus on:

    • What technology / systems do you utilize?
    • What is your units to property manager ratio?
    • What is your average tenant / unit turnover duration?
    • What limitations are placed on the landlord: can I use my own lease, tenant screening, maintenance, etc.  **If this is important to you
    • Is maintenance an internal or external team?
    • Who is my main point of contact?  What is their preferred contact method?

    At the end of the day every landlord has their own preferences.  Big or small doesn't matter, value does.  However you perceive value will indicate which direction you will want to proceed.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.