First take $1K and:
- Join your local REIA, attend regularly and talk to the people there (~$150 - $200/year)
- Take some friendly local investors out to lunch/dinner/drinks ($50 per "date")
- Buy some good RE investing books ($5 - $20 each, used or new)
- Pick up a few well-regarded guru courses used on Ebay ($100 - $200 each)
That will give you big head start without having to throw $25K at something that may or may not be what you're looking for.
You'd figure they'd charge less since they were getting those good Canadian dollars.
I was wondering, do you still have the book and DVD package they give at the event? If so and if your not using them can I please buy them off you? I went to the event a week ago and didn't buy the three day training. I really just want the book and dvd.
I recommend asking people that actually invested in the program. If you were buying a franchise, for example a subway, I don't think it would be a good idea to take advice from the local deli owners. The smart thing would be to find people that have already invested in their systems and ask them what they think. Ask a few of them. If you go to FBWINS.com they have hundreds of testimonials, me being one of them. It's good advice to take people out to lunch, go to your local REIA (I own one in NJ, ), and read books. I just don't agree that a few books and lunches is enough to really be educated on how to do this business at high level. I guess it all depends upon your goals but the best advice I could give you is to ask people that did it already not those that haven't. Also, always see if the people that are giving you advice are actually doing the business and how active they are. My site is [LINK TO PERSONAL SITE REMOVED] to get a glimpse of some of the stuff we've done. Good luck with everything and if you're ever in NJ stop by our club. It's every 2nd Wednesday of the month at 6-10pm at The Westwood at 438 North Ave in Garwood NJ 07027.
@Jonathan Steingraber I bet if you informed seminar folks about BiggerPockets podcasts and forums, and advised that they indulge for one week before investing in FB, it would drastically cripple your business.
I agree with @Bill G, do some basic education first. Learn the laws, scour BP for literally hours on end, there is really no end to the content here. After you have learned all you can for free, then consider paying for specialized training. I am always in favor of something accredited, but I understand the mentality of the "guru training" model.
Preface: all of what I say next is based on conversations with 3 people who have attended the fortune builders program.
From what I understand fortune builders partners and/or controls/owns CT Homes LLC which is essentially a wholesaler. The idea being that you pay fortune builders for the training, a very large sum in fact, and then they offer to fly you to Las Vegas or Los Angeles for a property buying workshop, where CT Homes LLC then showcases properties for wholesale.
Like I said I've never participated so I can't say with any reasonable certainty, but I wouldn't spend $25,000 on a training program. If it were my money, I would spend it on accredited education/licenses or even just jump in head first, I feel like my learning curve wouldn't cost me $25,000 in losses, but I could be wrong.
Just my 2 cents.
I am a graduate of the program.
It is NOT for anyone and everyone. But it certainly is NOT a scam in the sense that the material is 'wrong' or 'fake', but I would definitely question some of the statements they make in their marketing/sales efforts.
Fortune Builders' material is geared towards making a business out of flipping a home. They have quite of bit of systems, mind maps, templates, contracts, and marketing material that are turn-key. Their intent is not necessarily to make you a 'casual' flipper. This is where the value lies.
It's important to note that a lot of their material (at least when I joined) was geared towards the mid-west/east coast market. Some of the strategies they taught in their course definitely did not apply in certain markets (especially mine).
A big point to consider is that Fortune Builders pitches "coaching" as part of their course -- this was the biggest issue I had with them. When I went through the program, their 'coaching' was summed up as once a week coaching calls for 30 minutes with a coach wasn't even in my local market (most of them were on the east coast). It's imperative as a newbie to have someone accessible and knowledgeable of the local market.
When I signed up, there were 3 busloads of people who also signed up with me. That was over 2 years ago, and to this day, there are only 6-7 people that I am aware of (out of the 3 busloads) that are still doing it today.
Most people were successful because 1.) They have a business background or Real Estate background or 2.) They went in full time.
I would not contest the fact that yes, BP has great, if not the same amount of content, but to find it all in one place along with systems, a roadmap, and a support community (all the other students that have joined), that is what you are paying for.
If you want to go all-in like I did, FB is a good choice.
If you are trying to pace yourself, stick with BP
I was wondering, do you still have the book and DVD package they give at the event? If so and if your not using them can I please buy them off you? I went to the event a week ago and didn't buy the three day training. I really just want the book and dvd.
They pop up on eBay frequently.
I am a graduate of the program.
It is NOT for anyone...
Are you sure that's how you intended to start your post? :-)
@Brandon Lee a lot of folks are broke from the $25-40k/year for College and need to get this for free.
@J Scott -- Yes. I think a lot of people have a lot of opinions about Fortune Builders while having no experience in terms of what they actually deliver.
Fortune Builders is expensive. Yes. But it is a tool, and from what I hear about all the other programs out there, it's probably one of the better ones. At the end of the day, the tool is NOT a trump card. Tools are multipliers. They amplify the person who is using it.
Sure BP is free. It's a tool, many people benefit from it. But in the same way, it's still the people who are able to take action that will make money because of BP. Fortune Builders is no different.
The price you pay doesn't change the fact that each individual is still responsible for the work required it takes in order to make money.
My intent was just to convey that I think I understand the strengths and limitations of FB as a tool more than most, and people should make decisions whether they think the trade-offs between the strengths/limitations are worth the investment -- this is no different than telling someone about buy/flip VS buy/hold as an investment strategy. Each strategy has upsides and downsides, but it's ultimately up to each individual to understand those trade-offs and pick which is a better fit to reach their investment goals.
@Mike Hurney -- I don't dispute that. But I am not Fortune Builders. The best thing I know to do is mentor people who want to get started, but I draw a very fine line between those who want the work done for them, and those who genuinely need a hand up.
At one point I was mentoring a guy based in Sacramento whom I had never met, he just posted an ad on Craigslist because he wanted to find a mentor -- I volunteered. We've never met, we dialogued over phone/email for a while until he decided he wanted to get into buy/hold.
I did something similar with a guy that emailed me off my Craigslist ad.
I did something similar with a lady out in NC that called me because of a similar post I made here regarding Fortune Builders. She got her first deal under contract within a week and I walked her through some protocol and how to watch for certain pitfalls.
Fortune Builders has every right to charge whatever they charge as long as there is demand for it. I can't change that, but until someone comes out with something that is as good as FB for free, the best thing I can do is to help people make more educated decisions about whether it is a good fit for them or not.
What makes you think BP isn't as good (or better) than FB?
I'm not saying it is or it isn't (I don't have enough data to support an argument either way)...but you have considered that maybe it is?
Regardless, if I were to consider spending $25K for education, I'd have some simple questions I'd want answered first:
- What is the success rate of FB students? How many students do at least one deal? What is the average number of deals they do?
- If someone joins FB and doesn't feel it was worth their investment, do you offer a full or partial refund? What protects students from not getting the value they anticipate?
- What are the minimum qualifications of the instructors?
- Do you weed out those students who are unlikely to be successful in the program? Or do you take the money from anyone who is interested?
@Brandon Lee I think you hit J's hot button. He also has a Book and website that's promoted here on BP. and will probably post several disclaimers that are actually ads.
Let the Buyer beware and do your homework before investing a significant amount of money.
As Maya Angelou is quoted "Nothing Works Unless You Do!"
@Brandon Lee I think you hit J's hot button. He also has a Book and website that's promoted here on BP. and will probably post several disclaimers that are actually ads.
Not sure what you mean by "disclaimers that are actually ads"...but I certainly agree with the "hot button" part...
I don't like the "pay a big amount upfront and then get what you get" formula...
The minute a high-priced coaching program comes along that has a "money back guarantee" or a "pay as you go" model, I'll be the first to suggest people give it a try.
Why exactly is that too much to ask?
And btw, I have nothing against FB or any other coaching program...I don't know much about them. All I know is that I consider the bar pretty high to spend tens of thousands of dollars on training...without some data to support the fact that most of their students are successful, $25K seems like a ridiculous amount to spend.
I got my Engineering degree from a top 20 engineering school for about that much, and I got my MBA from a respectable business school for less than that. I wouldn't have paid for either of those schools/degrees without some indication that they'd help me be successful to some measurable degree.
Just show me some data...
"The minute a high-priced coaching program comes along that has a "money back guarantee" or a "pay as you go" model, I'll be the first to suggest people give it a try. "
That's what I like!
"The minute a high-priced coaching program comes along that has a "money back guarantee" or a "pay as you go" model, I'll be the first to suggest people give it a try. "
That's what I like!
For the record, there are many smaller coaches (probably many on this board) who implement this type of model. I would always recommend them...
What makes you think BP isn't as good (or better) than FB?
J, I said that in response to what Mike said about "a lot of folks are broke from the $25-40k/year for College and need to get this for free." The "this" he was referring to, I took to mean Fortune Builders. So my quote was regarding the fact that there is no free version of Fortune Builders. It wasn't a direct comparison to BP.
It's like I said previously, I don't think it even makes sense to compare BP with FB, they are different tools that are better fit for different individuals.
See above -- I've never made a blanket statement that "FB is better than BP." I've only said, "if you want to go all in, FB may be a better fit."
As I mentioned in the first post about how "I am a graduate of the program", it's dismal. Which is why I said what I said about how I question FB's marketing practices, and the fact that I'm simply trying to better educate people about what FB can deliver and what the limitations are.
I am not Fortune Builders staff, I don't know their current policy, but from what I remember 2 years ago, they have very little protection, buyer beware.
Again. I don't 100% vouch for everything FB has done, how they go about doing it, or what they will do. I'm merely here to help people have a more realistic expectation about what it can offer.
Active investor. Minimum of 10 investment deals closed. Must be a culture fit with FB.
From my experience, not much.
But again, I'm not here to defend FB and all their practices. I'm simply here to inform people to make a more educated decision. Many people (30+ people) have asked me about joining FB, I tell them that if they aren't prepared to do this full time and go all out, it may not be the best fit and they should consider alternatives like BP. Those conversations have ranged from 5 minutes to 45 minutes and many of them decided not to join by the end of the call and are probably a part of BP because of it.
- What is the success rate of FB students? How many students do at least one deal? What is the average number of deals they do?
As I mentioned in the first post about how "I am a graduate of the program", it's dismal. Which is why I said what I said about how I question FB's marketing practices, and the fact that I'm simply trying to better educate people about what FB can deliver and what the limitations are.
I am not Fortune Builders staff, I don't know their current policy, but from what I remember 2 years ago, they have very little protection, buyer beware.
Again. I don't 100% vouch for everything FB has done, how they go about doing it, or what they will do. I'm merely here to help people have a more realistic expectation about what it can offer.
Active investor. Minimum of 10 investment deals closed. Must be a culture fit with FB.
From my experience, not much.
Brandon -
I appreciate your candor and honesty. And I completely agree that as long as people have that information prior to making a decision about the program, that's all that matters. People can spend their money any way they choose...it just bothers me when there is information being hidden from them before they do.
The problem in this business is the "failure rate" (people who start in REI and then quit) is sky high --- I've heard as much as 95% within a year of taking guru courses or coaching. In many cases, the quality of the (often overpriced) education is actually quite good. The challenge is that real estate investing is not the easy, no-money slam-dunk that it's sold to be. It can hard. It takes investment of working capital. You can LOSE money on deals if things go wrong. And the competition in major markets is stiff.
People start doing REI after being sold a dream and sooner or later they encounter reality. Some do well in the real world of real estate. MOST DON'T. Whose to blame? The teacher? The student? Both?
Fortune Builders is legit. Than Merrill is the real deal. Whether it's a "good investment" or not will ultimately depend on (1) what you would DO with the information, as well as (2) what are your alternatives to get that same information via other (perhaps less expensive) sources.
"You never really lose until you stop trying." ~ Mike Ditka
I believe Fortune Builders is over charging for their program. As others have said a basic education is key but if you read the books that Bigger Pockets sells that is every thing you need to get started. The money that you'd spend to learn from Fortune Builders is money you could use for marketing or capital for your real estate investments. I believe that when you're starting out the most important money you'll spend is for marketing.
I understand that Bigger Pockets is very wary of a lot of educators/gurus. For good reason. I do think there are some very good educators to learn real estate investing from. But any real estate program that keeps upselling their programs is probably someone you should be wary of too.
Man this thread has long legs.....
I know of a real estate attorney who belongs to the group. while not a raving fan in his opinion it was worthwhile. that doesn't mean it's worthwhile for everyone else.
I know of someone else who purchased it 6 months ago and they haven't done a deal yet. To each his/her own I suppose.
I just went to the 3 day intensive training fortune builders does that is meant to throttle you into mastery. From what I've read on this thread it used to be 25K for the platinum course. It isn't any longer. The tiers go from 35K -> 25k -> 20K . The have drastically raised their prices it seems. And of course with each one comes less stuff. 35k - 12 months, 25k - 6 months, 20k - 3months. The lower two almost aren't even worth it. I would have done it but I don't have that kind of capital for any of them. And if you don't sign up for the rest of the event they basically rub it in on how much you DONT get, and how much you will have to struggle because you aren't a part of mastery. The rest of the event is basically an F U to anyone who didn't ante up that 35K.
I was in a 3 day Fortune builders workshop that just ended today here in Indianapolis, IN. The masters program that was recommended to me cost between $34,000-$19,000 depending on an individual needs. I did not signup because I have that feeling I could either learn the REI market myself or through clubs and partnership with the right individuals. Another part of me feels the FB program is worth it since they give you all the tools to avoid any pitfalls. The cost is outrageous and that's where I have issues with.
I need advice on what to do? I am starting out and looking for many things- forming a business, partners, mentors, RE financing...
i also just got done going to the 3 day seminar. I am a newby. Did get a overwhelming amount of information that was helpful. My partner and I did not sign up. Unless you can afford to do it I suggests not too from what I have been reading. You can get a lot of the same materials right here from BP. Save your money. Go pro on BP.
Hi Keri,
I am a member of Fortune Builders and the Mastery program is pretty expensive but there is a Jumpstart program that is cheaper that gives you coaching and builds you a business website and offers you access to all their live rehabbers, wholesalers, internet intensive bootcamps too. It is have the cost of Mastery so if you are really interested ask them about that one. Their program offers every convenience that they themselves use in investing on a software program that saves you a huge amount of time. Lets face it, looking for homes to invest in takes enough time without having, for instance, to figure out mathematically if the deal makes sense with repair costs, holding costs and financing costs. They designed software that does the figuring automatically and all you do is key in the numbers and it does the math, profit spread and ROI percentage for you. They also have a scope of work library software that has about six remodeled kitchens, baths etc that they have used themselves and when you click on it you get the break down of all materials used, sku numbers and where you can purchase them once you get a deal and have a contractor in place. HUGE, HUGE time saver. I would talk to them the systems they have in place save ALOT of time in this business. They have streamed lined it for themselves and they offer it to you. the great thing is you only pay any of the fees once but you can attend the bootcamps every year and reap the benefits of new things OVER and OVER and OVER for years and years.