New to land flipping--seeking advice
Sebastian, FL · Member since 2013 · 30 posts · 0 votes
I'm new to making money from real estate, and recently I learned of flipping land via Jack Bosch. It's simplicity was what truly got my attention.
There's a lot of information which is just not applicable to land, so I'm seeking direction on where I might start. It's $800 for Bosch's package, which I don't have currently.
Does the free guide cover land parcels?
I'm seeking to START somewhere, and my goal is to do my first deal this month.
I look forward to this, for it's very attainable. Thank you.
Alfred Green
Hi Alfred Green - I can vouch for Jack. He's got a legitimate program and it really does work if you put the time and effort into it.
Land is a niche that most investors don't really understand... which is a great thing for those who do take the time to learn and capitalize on it (you'll find that there is very little competition in land investing - I don't think I've ever gotten into a bidding war on a land deal, not once).
I'm not sure what is covered in this "free guide" you're referring to, but his actual course does cover a lot of what you'll need to know (not everything, but a lot). Land is a different animal than the conventional SFR properties that most investors are pursuing. What seems like a simple property at first glance can actually require a lot of research in order to understand the full story behind each individual parcel of land.
All said though - it is a solid approach to real estate investing. If you have any other questions, let me know. I can give you my perspective on it (whatever that's worth).
Hi Alfred Green - I can vouch for Jack. He's got a legitimate program and it really does work if you put the time and effort into it.
Land is a niche that most investors don't really understand... which is a great thing for those who do take the time to learn and capitalize on it (you'll find that there is very little competition in land investing - I don't think I've ever gotten into a bidding war on a land deal, not once).
I'm not sure what is covered in this "free guide" you're referring to, but his actual course does cover a lot of what you'll need to know (not everything, but a lot). Land is a different animal than the conventional SFR properties that most investors are pursuing. What seems like a simple property at first glance can actually require a lot of research in order to understand the full story behind each individual parcel of land.
All said though - it is a solid approach to real estate investing. If you have any other questions, let me know. I can give you my perspective on it (whatever that's worth).
Hi Alfred Green, I have heard lots of good things about Jack and his products as well. I have a different approach when it comes to sending offers and due diligence. In fact, many of my students come to me after first going through Jack's course.
They tell me that both will give you a sold background of the basics for getting started from due diligence, creating deal flow, safely closing, marketing your land and then selling it.
Seth Williams is dead on! Land is a different type of niche from housing, has much less competition, but you want to get on solid ground with due diligence, before hitting a tax auction or approaching owners whom are delinquent on their taxes.
When I first started, I found out the hard way about title clouds, IRS liens, buying land that didn't have legal access, water issues, soil issues, etc.
Nevertheless, I've been buying and flipping full time since 2001 and continue to do so while I believe Jack is teaching full time.
Let me know if you have any other questions. I love this niche!
Seth,
I was referring to BP's beginner's guide. I was wondering if any information was in there concerning land. Thanks for responding. I'm seeking a place to ask questions. I'm rather unknowledgeable about a LOT in land.
For example, I liked Jack's presentations, as he does a good "sell" to his viewers on how easy it is vs. other real estate ventures. I'm not able to afford his program, or I'd have bought it. I'm learning the most successful business people sell "ideas" which people grab up. His story is quite compelling.
I don't NEED it, but I'm not sure what good books/videos/presentations are out there. Do you have any favorites you'd like to share?
Also, what does SFR stand for?
Mark,
I'm receiving your emails, there's a lot of important info I need to pay attention to....
A question: do you only deal in raw land? Looking over your website, it seems you prefer raw land. Would you be willing to share why you select raw vs. improved land parcels?
When in your career did you decide this?
I'd told someone I was looking into land, and he asked me whether it was raw land or was I looking to get permits. I'm assuming he meant breaking land up into parcels for individual sales, which is profitable.
I'm unaware of the different requirements for raw vs improved land presently. Thanks for answering my questions.
Alfred
Hi Alfred Green - I honestly haven't dug very deeply into the BP beginner's guide, so I can't say for sure, but I'm guessing it doesn't cover the more intricate details of land investing (simply because there are a lot of things in land that just don't apply to the more common niches in real estate).
Also, SFR = Single Family Residential
To be honest, I don't think there are a ton of resources out there about how to specifically target land in a way that can actually make money quickly. I hadn't heard of Mark Podolsky until reading this thread just now - but it sounds like he might have some good ideas on the subject.
I've found that a lot of these courses have their merit - but you won't necessarily find your best success by following them to a T. You need to take what you can learn from them, put your own spin on it and figure out what works best for you.
The approach I use now is actually very different from the one that Jack lays out in his course (I don't use a lot of his exact methodology anymore), but he did play a major role in making me aware of the niche in the first place, and it helped me to identify what does and doesn't work well with my own personal style.
Anyway - all this to say, Jack's approach is legit. It might not be for everyone, but I have used it first-hand and can tell you from personal experience that it does work.
Hi @Alfred Green,
I only deal in raw land simply because its easiest to acquire with a lower price point, has less competition and more potential for appreciation. Just like you wouldn't want to buy a SFR that is already been fixed up to try and flip, the same concept applies to raw land.
There are many inexpensive, creative ways to improve raw land and increase value to a buyer. Some of them are as simple as just surveying the property and staking the corners.
@Seth Williams is dead on. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a "push button" system for real estate or any other business. This is marketing hype and why the "Gurus" quickly lose their reputations, as inevitably the customers are disappointed when they discover it just isn't that easy....
My advice is to take a Ready Fire Aim approach. Start making offers, and stumbling through the process. You'll learn more by doing than anything else. That doesn't mean you shouldn't educate yourself, but do both at the same time. Offers during the day, read at night. You may get a new idea or concept that can help you and your team, and then apply it, test it and measure it. What works for some of the BP community, may not work for you and your niche.
As Bob Parsons, the founder of GoDaddy is famous for saying, "Whatever doesn't get measured, doesn't get managed."
Hope that helps.
Alfred maybe you should chat it up with Seth and talk over some things
Not a bad idea, thanks Stephen Moore.
I agree with Mark Podolsky on the raw land vs. improved parcels. I consider both in my dealings (i.e. - if the equity is there and the market is decent, I'll pull the trigger) - but I prefer raw land, and improved parcels definitely cause me to proceed with an abundance of caution.
Anything that carries higher taxes or association fees are a huge red flag (as these things generally aren't even part of the equation with raw land). If you're looking for a parcel of land that is truly maintenance-free with low holdings costs, raw land is the way to go.
This has been especially important over the past 5 years, as new construction has been pretty dead (and pre-packaged parcels of land that were only good for new construction - definitely had a limited use).
Can anyone give some insight on how to liquidate property? I have found that in this niche... Acquiring the land is not all that hard, ( just gotta send out letters... Honestly, people WILL call)
Though, selling the property has been a different issue. Here are just a few of the sites I have tried: BP,CL,landwatch & even EBay.
I know my price point is comparable even lower than closer properties & I even offer financing....any other ideas to move my parcels?
I'd like to add my 2 cents if you don't mind. I don't know anything about Jack Bosch or land in Florida where you appear to live but I have bought and sold over $1M in land over the last 3 years (about 25 lots so far), along with doing several SFR rehabs. My average purchase price is about 40K and Net profits have been about 30-40%. I ONLY BUY IMPROVED LOTS! Although, after listening to @Seth Williams I am considering raw land as well. My strategy within the state of Utah has mostly been to purchase 3-5 lots at a time from banks and sell them one at a time or on a take-down schedule to smaller builders. New construction is not what it was in 2006 but, builders are still building! If I can buy land for less than the cost of development, I feel pretty safe. I like improved dirt for these reasons:
1. Easy to find valuations!
2. Easy to find buyers.
3. Multiple exit strategies (MLS conventional sale, Owner-financed sale, Partner with builders who build on spec and get paid when home sells.)
4. I can increase a lot's value by a little grading, weed control, survey work or even by obtaining a variance or conditional use permit from the city.
5. It's easier to push some dirt or mow some weeds than to rehab a house!
6. Less competition than other RE niches.
The down side is that you really need cash to buy these deals. I have used hard money (2pts and 12% APR) only once to buy a lot, and that loan had to be attached to another SFR I owned. Nobody likes to lend on land these days.
I'm sure that with a little more research you'll find a niche that fits you well. I just wanted to add my experiences.
Have fun and Make your own luck!
I don't know anything about any of the land gurus.
I just sort of fell into wholesaling infill lots in a particular neighborhood 8 years ago. This used to be a 'war zone' and in 2004/5 there was a ton of new construction going on (which later turned out to be all mortgage frauds, which were later foreclosed), but there were also a ton of vacant lots.
So, I started researching owners and had so much fun trying to trace people or their heirs. In the 90's the city tore down hundreds of dilapidated homes and because there was such low values, the owners had just walked away.
Anyway, I went through the neighborhood and looked at every permit and wrote down contacts of every builder that was working in the area.
Then I got properties under contract typically for 15K and sold for 30K by contacting all the builders, who were all wild for them. I didn't do bidding wars. The first person that committed and put earnest money down got the lot for 30K. One builder trusted me so much, the minute I sent a fax he called me and took it.
I probably could have gotten more for the lots, but I much prefered selling quickly and being able to assign and do a double-close.
All that research paid off years later, when I knew the neighborhood so well and after the market crashed, that I started buying houses there for 10K and now have all my rentals in that neighborhood.
I'd also love some advice on offloading land. we all know the obvious: build a buyers list. Does anyone have some specific tips for doing that. Also what's the sweet spot for percentage of market value to list the property. Or any other tips the more experienced might have.
Welcome to the BP family. Is there an active market for raw land parcels in Sebastian? How would you market the properties, builders, snow birds or locals? I would sit down with some active realtors and builders to convince yourself that a market exists and that you could enjoy a good income from your activities. You might consider utilizing two approaches, the housing market in the area might be a good one to explore, as well. I would think your end game marketing is the key. I'm giving you food for thought, not advice.
I think you'll find that your ability to sell land is contingent on several things:
It's also important to recognize that selling land doesn't always happen at the speed of light. Sometimes properties will take a few months to move (especially when people aren't necessarily clamoring to buy land in your area). I agree, it can be frustrating when results don't happen immediately, but it's a matter of keeping your listings in front of as many eyes as possible so that the right buyer finds your property at the right time (keep in mind - if you find the right buyer, they may be willing to pay a lot more for the same property than most "normal" people will).
Sometimes we just need to have patience (GASP!) and stay faithful to the basic techniques of selling property. I would agree with@Pono Wright that it probably is easier to acquire land than sell it (in most cases). That being said - I've never had a property that I couldn't move eventually. Part of the equation to consider when buying any property is - how long can I afford to hold this? If it's something where you're going to lose your shirt in a few months, you probably shouldn't be risking your life savings on this kind of deal in the first place.
I think that selling is just a skill that needs to be developed over time. Getting into the heads of buyers and understanding what they want doesn't come naturally to most of us - but once you can figure out how to generate interest and move things quickly, it can be a very helpful (and profitable) skill set to have.
Tyson,
Here is a snapshot of my most recent purchase:
I purchased 6 40acre & 2 45acre parcels in Pershing NV. (closest city is lovelock) There location was pretty good being that it has road access & about 30 Min away from Rye Patch Resevoir. I sold 2 right away to my buddy who taught me this method for my purchase price & am currently selling the remaining 6.
Get a value: I got my value doing tons of research on what land was going for on other sites: ebay, competition, realtors etc. I found that this was really the only way being that a real appraisal would've been a couple thousand.
Price & size: I saw that most properties of this size were getting about 12k-15k(I a paid $2500 for each parcel) & more depending on what you offered with the property. Ex: mineral rights (huge), well, septic, surveyed & staked, road access...mine have nothing but road access which is a big bonus.
Selling techniques & sales price: creating a buyers list is huge but it will take time...so you gotta be patient on that one. Sites that I have used are: Backpage,Craigslist, Ebay,Land &farm but so far the only one that gets me inquiries is Landwatch.There kinda pricey but once you start to sell a few through lease option it will cover the cost. I price my land at mid market value for lease option & half of that for a sale price. Ex. If the property is worth 12K, I'll sell it for 10k(be competitive) through lease option with 4-5 different payment options or a BUY IT NOW PRICE of $5k so that I can buy more land NOW.
It's been 2 months since I've acquired the 6 properties & I've sold 2 total, 1 buy it now & 1 with payments only advertising on Landwatch.
So far I really like this method of investing & hope to be at @Seth Williams level one day.
Great string everyone. @Alfred Green @Mark Podolsky @Matt DeCamp @Tyson Cross
We have purchased and sold more than 14,000 rural unimproved properties since 1999.
HERE IS THE WHOLE KEY TO SUCCESS:
It seems we all agree that buying property cheap is simple when correctly using direct mail.
1) Make cheaper offers. We used to buy property for $100 per acre ($4,000 for a 40 acre property). Now we offer $1,000 for the same property. We buy the same number of parcels because we have increased our direct mail reach statistics.
After crying about it, we adjusted to the market.
2) Sell the property for two times (2x) what you paid. No exceptions. (The 40 acre property in the example above sells for $2K). Go on the internet to sites like Landwatch and find the retail sellers for your property type and location. Build an email list of about 20 to 80 buyers. Any more will upset these professional retail sellers because they will feel like you are "shopping" the dirt. Make the purchase really easy for them by creating a set of maps they can use to re-sell it for retail dollars. Once you have sold them a property or two at these rates, you have a customer for life. THIS REPEAT CUSTOMER HAS TO WIN BIGGER THAN YOU DO ON THE SALE OF THIS PROPERTY FOR THIS MODEL TO WORK. He will sell that same 40 acre property for $8K to $10K - which is still really cheap.
Keep a bottle of Maalox on your desk like I do. When you sign the deed for a 40 acre property that you sold for $2,000.00 you will need it.
I keep it right next to the sign I made that says this "100% ROI in 30 days or less x 10"
@Mark Podolsky @Seth Williams @Steven Butala
I'm in California. What do I need to look for when pulling a list for land? I am interested wholesaling. ANY other guidance will be greatly appreciated. Thanks
@Deborah Hill get the list from of delinquent tax owners from the county treasurer. Then sort the list to avoid homes, commercial property etc. Then mail low ball offers to the out of state owners first as they are less likely to have any emotional attachment to the property. [Solicitation removed by Mod - J Scott] This is a great model and mitigates your risk as you are only out a little money and time.
Best of luck!
@Alfred Green Several people here have done land deals and would be willing to help. I have done some more unique land deals and average around 50-150% returns, but with vacant ground its large returns and smaller numbers. Thats been my experience but if you need a hand let me know.
@Alfred Green @Deborah Hill @Harry Asnien @Seth Williams
Thanks, Greg. This is one of the many details we cover in our new effort. It's an online academy that teaches real estate investors how to flip land. Every single aspect is covered and it's a lot of fun.
Here is how it works:
1. A seller agrees to sell a property (let's say 10 acres in Southern California) for $1,000. We cover the cost and strategy.
2. Generate all of the county specific documents required to transfer the property. In this case its a deed and a PCOR (Southern California). Cost is free.
3. Locate a notary on http://www.123notary.com close to where the seller lives and they arrange to meet at the seller's home, office or nearby restaurant. Notary cost is between $40 and $100.
4. Send the documents and a Cashier's check to the notary with a self addressed stamped envelope with tracking number. The notary meets the seller, notarizes the seller's signature on the documents and hands the person a cashier's check on the spot. Then sends the documents back. USPS packages are about $5.65 each or about $12.00 total.
5. Receive the deed and related documents and send them into the county to be recorded. Cost is between $15.00 and about $40.00 to record documents.
6. You own the land! You can sell it on the internet on terms or wholesale it for cash.
@steven butala.
Im definitely going to check out your site today.
So there is no escrow company to deal with and close in 30 days? Newbie question but why is that. I would like to be able to wholesaling it right away for a profit.
Thanks for feedback and any other tips.