Help! 100 year old house. Need advice. Lead, Asbestos, etc.

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Help! 100 year old house. Need advice. Lead, Asbestos, etc.

Cameron Price
Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes

I need serious input! I just looked at a Historic house in my town that has been sitting vacant for over 30 years. The family finally put it on the market and are asking $80K. The realtor thinks they would take $40K or maybe even less. Several people have already looked at it, but it has overwhelmed everyone so far, myself included, but I'm considering making an offer on it. Its almost 3600 sf. 4 bed 3 bath build in 1911. It has water leaks in several places  that have caused extensive water damage. I'm pretty sure it is covered in lead based paint and probably has asbestos in it too. It would be a $360K house MINIMUM restored (decent houses in my town hang around $100/sf) . Realtor guessed $450K! Problem is, she also guessed $200K in repairs! Complete new electrical, plumbing, hvac required. Plaster is cracked on the ceilings. It has a crazy gutter system that was built into the overhang that has deteriorated and caused most of the water damage. 

The house is structurally SOLID from what I could tell. All rough cut lumber that appeared to be in great shape other than where the water damage has occurred. It has TONS of character and would be an amazing home when restored. 

I can start putting together some numbers of what it might cost to rennovate, but I have no idea where to start with lead based paint, mold remediation, and asbestos. Anybody have suggestions/ resources? RUN? lol. 

My current thoughts of what I could do to it:

Get some portion of it habitable, or move a camper on site, or rebuild carriage house on property... make it my primary residence.

Rennovate along the way.

Get it in decent shape and take out a HELOC on the property for a handsome sum.

Use heloc to finance pretty much any other flips I wanted to do.  I would have a large amount of money available whenever I needed it. 

I could rent out rooms to others if i wanted to, it's huge! It's directly across the street from a college as well. student housing, maybe? possibilities are endless. 

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Cindy Browning
Flipper · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 3 votes
10y

Cool house! The first thing I would look into is the mold. I just did a flip on a 900 sq ft house and to do mold remediation the right way, it cost $2,300 and you have a lot of sq footage. Asbestos aren't a problem unless you open them to natural air but considering you said the plaster on the ceiling is coming down means you'll need to scrape and there for need to worry about the asbestos.

 I wouldn't be worried about it being a big project as long as you keep in mind that ALL old homes have unforeseen problems. There will always be stuff behind the walls and under the house that you won't know about until you get into it. But don't let that stop you if you have the vision and drive to do it. Seems like a great investment if the numbers are correct!

Good luck! 

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  • Account Closed
    Investor · Princeton, TX · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    I wish it was here.  It does look like it could be a great house.  From five states over and from a few pictures it looks like a good deal.

    Get some local pros to look at it.  I would start with electricians and plumbers

    0Reply
  • Cindy Browning
    Flipper · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    Cool house! The first thing I would look into is the mold. I just did a flip on a 900 sq ft house and to do mold remediation the right way, it cost $2,300 and you have a lot of sq footage. Asbestos aren't a problem unless you open them to natural air but considering you said the plaster on the ceiling is coming down means you'll need to scrape and there for need to worry about the asbestos.

     I wouldn't be worried about it being a big project as long as you keep in mind that ALL old homes have unforeseen problems. There will always be stuff behind the walls and under the house that you won't know about until you get into it. But don't let that stop you if you have the vision and drive to do it. Seems like a great investment if the numbers are correct!

    Good luck! 

    2Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    Roof first, estimate the cost via some drive by estimates,  assume you will need to add plywood since it is probably plank underneath.  

    I would  reverse the previous posters order,  First asbestos, then lead exterior, then water/mold. 

    Asbestos, if it is  around all your pipes you are going to want professionally removed, assuming it is extensive and your heating pipes are probably wrapped in it.  Contact a remediation company for an estimate.    If it is a smaller issue say just above your furnace that is less of a problem.  

    Lead:  For exterior painting get someone who can work on this type of house and ask their price for painting. The condition of the paint is the biggest contributor here not the lead.   Interior you may be sheetrocking over in a fair number of places. If you have wallpaper the trim only may have been painted in lead paint.  Peel away is a good lead approved option for detailed woodwork.   Consider window replacement cost or if you are ambitious and only if have deep pockets or can get state assistance restoration.

    Mold: It depends, if it was flooded that is different then if you had water seep in to places, if you are ripping to the studs you can treat the wood underneath or remove what is needed, it really is a question of how extensive and what kind.

    It is a huge project but hopefully someone takes it on and doesn't rip it down.  You are best to hire the major jobs out on this, time if money. I would be curious on the ballpark cost estimate of local investors on this our.  Only 4 bedrooms? in 3600 square feet?  Where is the space going to?

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @Account Closed

    Definately need to get Plumbing, Mechanical, and Electrical prices. All systems would be completely new.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @Cindy Browning

    That's what scares me on this project... the stuff I can't do if need be. If I'm required to hire out mold remediation and it's 10K, that's another big chunk of money up front. 

    I need to know how much lead, asbestos, and mold I'm dealing with. Is there some kind of inspection that would tell me that? Or is that calling a mold company, an asbestos company, and a painting company?

    0Reply
  • Cindy Browning
    Flipper · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    @Cameron Price

    Most mold companies do asbestos and lead base paint testing also. I would call around and find one that does it all so you're not dealing with multiple people. In my experience, it looks worse than it usually is but I would say it's better to be safe than sorry since it's an older home. 

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @Colleen F.

    I agree with the roof first. It needs to be sealed up so everything inside can dry out. there are really only 2 places where I saw BAD leaks inside. I went in the attic and could see speckles of daylight in several places. Around the perimeter where the weird gutter system was. is destroyed, but removing the rotten wood and replacing with new wood doensn't seem to be a big deal.

    I wasn't swimming when I walked through, lol, so no flood type damage. It was raining, so I could see the bad places actively leaking. 

    Looks like the next step is to find a mold remediation company, a painter who deals with lead,  and an asbestos company that can look at it for me and give me a price, so I know what I'm dealing with

    1Reply
  • David O
    Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2012 · 119 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    If what you say is true, having seen it (structurally sound and ARV price). I wouldn't worry about any of what you are saying. All three issues are overblown by lawyers. If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead. The only time I'd worry about asbestos is if you have an old octopus furnace or if it's on your pipes, that's it. As I don't want to remove those. Asbestos flooring? Just go over it. Lead is nothing if you take proper precautions. Ie - Don't scrap without lead masks and wear a tyvek suit. Once it is painted it is fine. Mold is 95% of the time No issue. Wear proper mask/suit and get rid of it.

    Looks like a great house - I'd go for it if the ARV is right and you can get it for 40-50k.

    1Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @David O

    I hope it is am much a non issue as you make it sound! It is inside the city limits and a very well known house that would have a lot of eyes on it, so I'm concerned with what I legally have to do. If I can spray bleach on a moldy spot and be good to go, then awesome, but if it requires licensed contractors, so I don't end up in some mold lawsuit down the road, then I'm trying to figure that out on the front end. 

    For what it's worth, I didn't actually see much mold... the actual leaks had mold/ mildew at the source, but that's really all I saw. I'd just hate to think it's a non issue, then find out that I need 10K worth of mold remediation done. 

    I don't know what in the house contains asbestos... is there any way to tell other than hiring a company to test it?

    Same with lead, I saw that they have testing kits at lowes, but is that sufficient? every surface in the house needs to be repainted. Do I buy a bunch of test kits and dab all over the house?

    Thanks for the feedback. I really like the house and it seems it could be a great investment, but I want to reduce the amount of surprises.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @Colleen F.

    You asked about it only having 4 bedrooms. I think that is only the rooms with closets. There were other rooms that I really don't know what they were. They could be turned into bedrooms with the additoin of a closet.

    On a side note, I think there were 6 or more fire places in the house. It's crazy!

    0Reply
  • David O
    Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2012 · 119 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    I definitely agree with being above board but the issue with testing is it will come back positive as every house that old has lead and most likely asbestos somewhere. In my state if you test then whenever you rent it you have to disclose it. Which most of the time it's not a good thing as the house will be totally safe once you are done (lead encapsulated, asbestos incapacitated, mold gone). But most tenants will freak if you tell them you have this as no other landlord discloses because they don't test.

    If it had one of those really old gravity furnaces you should probably have it checked out as I know those had a lot of asbestos. But stuff like possible asbestos tile I wouldn't worry about. I'd just go over it with new subfloor to encapsulate it.

    It wouldn't hurt to have the asbestos guy come out and check and see what he says, but I'd never have a lead or mold guy come unless the mold is everywhere in the house. A couple water leaks with some light mold shouldn't be an issue if you fix the source of the leak and remove the mold.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    @David O

    That is pure gold man... I'm glad you posted that.

    I think the best thing to do then is to check with whoever would be giving me a hard time about it anyway... probably the city inspector. It is a highly visible house directly across from a college, so I'm sure they'll be checking up on me if this happens.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    it has hardwood floors throughout, so no asbestos on the floors. plaster walls inside. I guess the insulation on the pipes would be the main thing.

    0Reply
  • Cameron Price
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Hartsville, SC · Member since 2015 · 174 posts · 69 votes
    10y

    Another big question. How do you attach sheetrock to plaster???

    0Reply
  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    10y

    I think those are called box gutters but I could be wrong.

    Like David  I would not suggest testing just getting a remediation company to estimate asbestos removal as part of the cost. I would not do it myself (although years ago I  crawled under the house and removed- it is not recommended).  Also tell the painters you are assuming lead paint when you estimate painting the house.  If you get a lead qualified painter to do the outside you can do the inside yourself with the right precautions. EPA has some regs you need to follow as well as your state regs.   In RI you always have to tell renters there is possibly lead if it is built in this era.  It is in the lease and they get a handout which yes freaks some people out but the college students don't much care. It could be different where you are but see what your local lead regs are.

    Before you go attaching sheetrock to plaster, is the wall painted in the first place?  If not you may be able to skim coat plaster, it depends how bad it is and it can be pretty bad and still repaired. Your picture seems to show unpainted plaster under wallpaper.  In some cases you are going to strip the plaster out to put in your new electric so you are basically going over stud walls so sheetrock normally.

    The fireplaces will probably need lining before you use them.  I have a converted  apartment building that is similar, also 5 fireplaces beautiful tile fronts(cap those chimneys or you will be living with squirrels and they can do a ton of damage!)  We don't use the fireplaces in apartments for insurance reasons. 

    Don't underestimate this is a big undertaking but if the location and price are right could be very good.  With the space think is the single family your best use? how many more bedrooms are there if you add closets?   

    1Reply
  • Bill Florence
    Investor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2015 · 137 posts · 36 votes
    10y

    Interesting potential. I almost took a historic house project a while back and a few things I had to address besides all of the other input posted here was...

    Check to see if the home is in a historic preservation zone and has associated requirements ? My home did, so we had to follow certain architectural standards.  Septic or if sewer is it cast iron ? My sewer was cast iron and needed to be replaced $$

    Since my project was to make significant changes to the home and lot the city told us we needed to comply with new zoning restrictions such as add sidewalk$, street side tree$, and so on.

    Best of luck

    0Reply
  • Derreck WellsPro Member
    Specialist · Pelham, NH · Member since 2013 · 547 posts · 269 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David O:

    If what you say is true, having seen it (structurally sound and ARV price). I wouldn't worry about any of what you are saying. All three issues are overblown by lawyers. If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead. The only time I'd worry about asbestos is if you have an old octopus furnace or if it's on your pipes, that's it. As I don't want to remove those. Asbestos flooring? Just go over it. Lead is nothing if you take proper precautions. Ie - Don't scrap without lead masks and wear a tyvek suit. Once it is painted it is fine. Mold is 95% of the time No issue. Wear proper mask/suit and get rid of it.

    Looks like a great house - I'd go for it if the ARV is right and you can get it for 40-50k.

    Wow... Just wow. 

    People following your advice, David, could be in for quite a surprise. Regardless of the health risks involved in untrained people trying to work with lead, asbestos, or mold there are laws in place that carry large fines for violating them. For all 3 of those issues, I always tell people to check for local, state, and Federal laws. Some states don't have specific laws on them, but Federal law still applies. A quick search leads me to believe that SC doesn't have their own lead laws (they might, so OP needs to check), but the EPA laws will still apply and can carry huge fines if violated. http://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-regulations#paint

    It's irrelevant if you agree with the laws or don't agree with them, you still have to follow them.

    "If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead." 

    Mesothelioma, the cancer caused by asbestos, has a 10 - 50+ year latency (incubation) period. People who worked with the stuff in the 70s, plumbers, electricians, etc, are still dying from it today. 

    Mold exposure generally doesn't kill, but will make people sick...

    In 2004 the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found there was sufficient evidence to link indoor exposure to mold with upper respiratory tract symptoms, cough, and wheeze in otherwise healthy people; with asthma symptoms in people with asthma; and with hypersensitivity pneumonitis in individuals susceptible to that immune-mediated condition

    Lead exposure generally doesn't kill either, it just causes brain damage and other fun things to happen...

    The signs and symptoms of lead poisoning in children may include:

    • Developmental delay
    • Learning difficulties
    • Irritability
    • Loss of appetite
    • Weight loss
    • Sluggishness and fatigue
    • Abdominal pain
    • Vomiting
    • Constipation
    • Hearing loss

    Babies who are exposed to lead before birth may experience:

    • Learning difficulties
    • Slowed growth

    Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults may include:

    • High blood pressure
    • Abdominal pain
    • Constipation
    • Joint pains
    • Muscle pain
    • Declines in mental functioning
    • Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
    • Headache
    • Memory loss
    • Mood disorders
    • Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
    • Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women

    Good luck, Cameron, if you decide to buy the property. I love these old houses and would jump on that if I could find one around here. If you do get it, check all your local laws before starting work. If it's "historic", there's a lot more involved with restoring it.

    Derreck

    1Reply
  • Aimee Corazzari
    Denver, CO · Member since 2014 · 9 posts · 3 votes
    10y

    As an owner of a house that old I can tell you I have learned a lot about foundations and gutters over the past few weeks.  Make sure that your foundation is in good shape since you have had such wacky gutters.  Improper water drainage can cause area's of the house to sink.  Make sure you get all that ironed out with the roof.  May seem small in comparison to asbestos, but all these little things can add up.  Especially if you pay a lot to repair the plaster now, just to find it cracking a few months later because the house is shifting.

    Beautiful house.  Good luck!  Post after pix if you move ahead

    0Reply
  • Rick Baggenstoss
    Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Cameron Price Beautiful house.  It can be fantastic some day.  However, it seems to be much bigger and more complex than you've planned for.

    If you're going to prepare this house for any sort of resale (which you should), then you need a bunch of GCs to walk thru it with you and give detailed estimates.  Break the scope into milestones so you control risk and get to a  point where you can do something with the house/GC if need be.

    For example:  

    Milestone 1.  Get it functional

    -  Planning and Site Prep - new layout for baths, laundry, master suite, etc.?

    -  Framing repairs/roofing and anything required to dry-in the house - 

    -  Electric/Plumbing/HVAC  Rough-in

    Milestone 2.  Work on the finishes

    - Demo (plaster, tile, etc. where needed), Treat Mold issues, Asbestos

    - Insulate

    - Wall Coverings - New Sheetrock, Tile, etc.

    - and so on ...

    Point is to break it down and do it sequentially.  Read up on the order of construction.  A GC will ensure it's done like this.  

    Point number 2 is the costs are going to be significant.  $21k for systems work, $8k for interior/exterior paint, ~$5k for the roof,  $5k fixtures, .... hard to even guess trim, floors, framing, sheetrock, tile, cabinets/counters, etc.    Easily you could get to $80k - $150k.  

    Probably not a good project for an inexperienced rehabber.  It will be technical and costly. 

    2Reply
  • Sarah Shockley
    Rental Property Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2012 · 114 posts · 98 votes
    10y

    This house is awesome! I love the potential!

    Don't worry too much about the naysayers - truth is, anything can be fixed, it just has a price!!

    The first thing you need to do is get your finances in order. You will need cash or a renovation loan to purchase this house. What is your financial situation, and how are you getting the funds?

    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Newnan, GA · Member since 2013 · 86 posts · 33 votes
    10y

    Cameron: We've done for Historic homes (125-150 years old) in the past 2 years. You can check that on smcchomes.com. The rehab budget ranged from $85k to $200K.

    At a quick glance of those pictures, that's a tear down.

    1Reply
  • David O
    Investor · Detroit, MI · Member since 2012 · 119 posts · 64 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Derreck Wells:
    Originally posted by @David O:

    If what you say is true, having seen it (structurally sound and ARV price). I wouldn't worry about any of what you are saying. All three issues are overblown by lawyers. If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead. The only time I'd worry about asbestos is if you have an old octopus furnace or if it's on your pipes, that's it. As I don't want to remove those. Asbestos flooring? Just go over it. Lead is nothing if you take proper precautions. Ie - Don't scrap without lead masks and wear a tyvek suit. Once it is painted it is fine. Mold is 95% of the time No issue. Wear proper mask/suit and get rid of it.

    Looks like a great house - I'd go for it if the ARV is right and you can get it for 40-50k.

    Wow... Just wow. 

    People following your advice, David, could be in for quite a surprise. Regardless of the health risks involved in untrained people trying to work with lead, asbestos, or mold there are laws in place that carry large fines for violating them. For all 3 of those issues, I always tell people to check for local, state, and Federal laws. Some states don't have specific laws on them, but Federal law still applies. A quick search leads me to believe that SC doesn't have their own lead laws (they might, so OP needs to check), but the EPA laws will still apply and can carry huge fines if violated. http://www.epa.gov/lead/lead-regulations#paint

    It's irrelevant if you agree with the laws or don't agree with them, you still have to follow them.

    "If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead." 

    Mesothelioma, the cancer caused by asbestos, has a 10 - 50+ year latency (incubation) period. People who worked with the stuff in the 70s, plumbers, electricians, etc, are still dying from it today. 

    Mold exposure generally doesn't kill, but will make people sick...

    In 2004 the Institute of Medicine (IOM) found there was sufficient evidence to link indoor exposure to mold with upper respiratory tract symptoms, cough, and wheeze in otherwise healthy people; with asthma symptoms in people with asthma; and with hypersensitivity pneumonitis in individuals susceptible to that immune-mediated condition

    Lead exposure generally doesn't kill either, it just causes brain damage and other fun things to happen...

    The signs and symptoms of lead poisoning in children may include:

    • Developmental delay
    • Learning difficulties
    • Irritability
    • Loss of appetite
    • Weight loss
    • Sluggishness and fatigue
    • Abdominal pain
    • Vomiting
    • Constipation
    • Hearing loss

    Babies who are exposed to lead before birth may experience:

    • Learning difficulties
    • Slowed growth

    Although children are primarily at risk, lead poisoning is also dangerous for adults. Signs and symptoms in adults may include:

    • High blood pressure
    • Abdominal pain
    • Constipation
    • Joint pains
    • Muscle pain
    • Declines in mental functioning
    • Pain, numbness or tingling of the extremities
    • Headache
    • Memory loss
    • Mood disorders
    • Reduced sperm count, abnormal sperm
    • Miscarriage or premature birth in pregnant women

    Good luck, Cameron, if you decide to buy the property. I love these old houses and would jump on that if I could find one around here. If you do get it, check all your local laws before starting work. If it's "historic", there's a lot more involved with restoring it.

    Derreck

    You sound like a lawyer. With proper precautions it will be fine. Obviously, yes, follow all laws in your state and use common sense.

    Out of the three - The only thing I'd be worried about is asbestos furnace pipes and the like as they used to wrap them up in asbestos. Asbestos tile and stuff is no problem. Just encapsulate, don't disturb.

    0Reply
  • Victor Saumarez
    Investor · Lahaina, HI · Member since 2012 · 47 posts · 35 votes
    10y

    If this is a property of "historical interest" are there no grants available? You might get help with taxes through the Mills Act.

    0Reply
  • Jeff Rabinowitz
    Investor/Landlord · Farmington Hills, MI · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Cameron Price, get as solid estimates as you can and make your determination. It sounds like there are going to be lots of issues with this house. If you can solve those issues and will be well compensated for them it could be both fun and profitable.

    You state it is across form a college and that it could serve as student housing. That could be extremely profitable.

    How large is the lot? What would the vacant lot be worth? If it is more than $40K the worst case scenario may not be so bad. If it looks like the house will be a tear down and it is far from neighboring structures you may be able to donate this to the fire department for training and they will demo it for you. Then you can build whatever you would like. (Student housing?) You will have to remediate the asbestos to do this. Another possibility.

    1Reply
  • Account Closed
    Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @David O:

    If what you say is true, having seen it (structurally sound and ARV price). I wouldn't worry about any of what you are saying. All three issues are overblown by lawyers. If it was so dangerous everyone you know would be dead. The only time I'd worry about asbestos is if you have an old octopus furnace or if it's on your pipes, that's it. As I don't want to remove those. Asbestos flooring? Just go over it. Lead is nothing if you take proper precautions. Ie - Don't scrap without lead masks and wear a tyvek suit. Once it is painted it is fine. Mold is 95% of the time No issue. Wear proper mask/suit and get rid of it.

    Looks like a great house - I'd go for it if the ARV is right and you can get it for 40-50k.

    Unless the OP is in a muni with special ords or crack down inspectors, lead and asbestos would be the least of my concerns.  That stuff comes with every old house.  Mold doesn't concern me, but the water damage causing it does.  From the pictures that house looks like it's taken a lot of weather, and not just through the roof.  I'd want to see floor joists and the insides of the walls.  30 years is a long time vacant.  Termites and/or dry rot could have done serious structural damage that can't be seen without a major inspection.

    2Reply
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