Why do we not factor P&I into NOI?

Why do we not factor P&I into NOI?

Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 280 posts · 176 votes

I've read several iterations of 'How to Calculate NOI' here on Bigger Pockets and most all indicate we should not include capital improvements or additions, principal and interest, amortization loan points, income taxes and depreciation into the calculation. 

... and I agree (mostly); however, shouldn't Principal and Interest be accounted for because A.) principal payments are not expense-able and considered income in the eyes of the IRS since principal is not an expense and B.) interest is a true expense in the eyes of the IRS? 

Let's have a look at two examples - one in which we factor in Principal and Interest and one where we follow Dogma.

Setup (Yearly Values):

Income:             $12,500

Principal:           $2,050

Interest:             $3,800

Property Tax:    $1,500

Insurance:         $800

Mgmt Fee:         $1,250

Vac & Cred:       $2,000

Cap Ex:              $500

Scenario 1: 

NOI = (Income + Principal) - (Interest - Property Tax - Insurance - Mgmt Fee - Vac & Cred)

NOI = ($14,550) - ($9,350) = $5,200

Scenario 2:

NOI = (Income) - (Property Tax - Insurance - Mgmt Fee - Vac & Cred)

NOI = ($12,500) - ($5,550) = $6,950

In both cases, Capital Expenditures is NOT included in the formula (and for good reason). However, notice how our Net Operating Income is higher when Mortgage P&I is not factored in to the formula? The only reason I can really think of as to why it is not included in the calculations, traditionally, is because you would then effectively be calculating Cash Flow. So now, another can of worms, isn't Net Operating Income essentially the same thing as Cash Flow?

My head hurts - I'm laying down for a bit.

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Real Estate Agent · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 21 votes
8y
Focus on “operating” part of NOI. A property should operate the same regardless of how it was purchased. Investor A can leverage the hell out of a property, but that shouldn’t change its operational efficiency (maximizing income and minimizing expenses). Investor B can pay all cash for the same property, but the property should/will operate the same. The debt component will come later and will affect your cash flow, equity returns, etc.
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  • Real Estate Agent · Denver, CO · Member since 2017 · 41 posts · 21 votes
    8y
    Focus on “operating” part of NOI. A property should operate the same regardless of how it was purchased. Investor A can leverage the hell out of a property, but that shouldn’t change its operational efficiency (maximizing income and minimizing expenses). Investor B can pay all cash for the same property, but the property should/will operate the same. The debt component will come later and will affect your cash flow, equity returns, etc.
  • Chris SeveneyBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Investor · VA · Member since 2015 · 21k+ posts · 19k+ votes
    8y
    Larry Hawkins Alex is correct NOI is how the building performs on its own. IRR is how the building performs based on how the property is levered. The reason they use IRR is it is the interest rate your paying yourself. Some like to look at cash flow but cash flow can be deceiving as if you pay all cash for a property you will have a higher cash flow than someone who put 30% into a deal, but putting 30% into a deal may provide higher returns It’s all about determining how much leverage is good leverage which also minimizes risks
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  • Rental Property Investor · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2011 · 513 posts · 290 votes
    8y

    @Account Closed I second what Alex said.  I believe it allows the property to be compared to another property without the need to consider the type of debt used (if any).  It would then be possible to use other metrics to see the benefit to using different structures to purchase the asset.  

    If it helps, think of this as a way to analyze properties on their own. Then you can use NOI as a component to plug into other formulas. Cash Flow is different and includes the financing etc. Also, ROI is based on financing and how you structure the deal.

         This is not my strength but I can empathize with your frustration - I've been there.  My facts may not even be perfect but others will chime in now.  Frank Galinelli (spelling?) has a good book with a lot of the formulas used to analyze real estate deals.  Might help.

    Good luck,

    Will

  • Rental Property Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2015 · 280 posts · 176 votes
    8y

    Thanks for the clarification @Chris Seveney and @Alex Johnson. So it seems like keeping P&I out of NOI levels the playing field among investors and makes it's easier to compare the operational income on an asset separate from it's levered amount. Thanks again!

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    Debt is not required to run a property. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Naples, FL · Member since 2013 · 9k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    8y

    PGI

    -VCL

    +OI

    =EGI

    -OE

    =NOI

    Debt is NOT required so is NEVER considered an operating expense. Once you have NOI then you factor CapEx and debt service to determine cash flow before taxes.

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