Lists and Leads/ Direct Mail

Lists and Leads/ Direct Mail

Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes

Hey Texas BP,

I want to take a second to discuss a very undervalued and underrated topic-- Lists Leads.

It's common knowledge that the list of leads you hunt, (or hopefully direct market to), are the most important part of marketing, yet it seems to be the most neglected thing in marketing. I see all investors flooding the market place with Listsource leads or other common leads, when it would behoove the investor to spend whatever amount of money that makes sense to get the highest of quality leads.

My 2 and half years of birddogging in the Houston Market has allowed me to fully understand how to get the highest quality leads. I have become known in my niche as the guy who provides the value with the leads I provide and the lists I bring. It helps me to network and provide value to other investors I network with. 

With all of those perks being discussed, let's take a look at the math on the marketing side:

Let's use 2 hypothetical lists for example: 

1) My scrubbed list of probates to check the probate records for "real property being inherited" and a different mailing address for the applicant and the inherited or soon to be inherited property.

2) A random list pulled from ListSource containing certain criteria of out of state absentee and 90% or more equity in the house.

List 1: 

mailing 1000x5 times with a postcard costing $.50 ($2,500) (hypothetically let's say 80% of these leads have motivation) ($500 is in vain)

List 2:

same $2500, except only 50% of these leads have motivation of some sort, so there's more tire kickers and less potential. ($1250 will be in vain)

With this math, the value of a great list will be worth at the very least $750 plus value in the market place, more concentrated motivation, and much less tire kickers.

What does the BP community think?

I'm highly considering selling lists in places in TX (Austin, San Antonio, Dallas/Fort Worth) for a much more affordable price than the competition for this very reason.

I'll end this long discussion by asking everyone not only what they think, but what are their experiences with lists and leads and wasting potential money on marketing?

Thanks BP!

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Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 91 posts · 106 votes
9y

Why would you sell something so valuable? And the more people you sell it to, the less valuable it becomes. 

See this reply in the discussion

32 Replies

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  • Flipper · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2015 · 9 posts · 4 votes
    9y
    I'm not sure you'll get a lot of customers at that price point for List 1 but it actually sounds like a great list.
  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Leonard Galper

    I'm not quite sure I understand what you mean. I was only talking about marketing to potential leads lists and the costs associated with the campaign. I'm not mentioning the cost of such a list. I know USLeadslist charges around $1.50 a lead, which is crazy!

    Anyway, I'd love to hear about what you think you might pay for a list that I mentioned or of the same quality!

    Thanks for posting, let's get some more discussion, I'm very curious to see other opinions and experiences on this!

  • Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2017 · 91 posts · 106 votes
    9y

    Why would you sell something so valuable? And the more people you sell it to, the less valuable it becomes. 

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Andrew Allen

    You beat me to it man! I've already thought that one out, I would only sell to 4 investors in the market place to keep competition low. I'd find 4 investors that I deem trustworthy. 

    As to answer my personal gain? In my experience in the Houston market, There is such an abundance of deals with these leads that I'm still connecting while sharing the leads. Think about a list of 1,000... if the hypothetical 800 are motivated to sell, I would never connect on all of them! I may as well leverage my campaign by selling the lists and using the money from the list to fund my campaign! this way 5 trustworthy people tackle the same list, we would even know our competition in some cases!

  • Investor · Cedar Park, TX · Member since 2014 · 317 posts · 74 votes
    9y

    I am located in Austin, TX and would be interested in San Antonio lists at well. 

    I think realistically it comes down to three things.

    1. The quality of the list being sold.

    2. The motivation of the sellers on that list.

    3. The number of times a investor is going to market to the sellers on the list(s)they purchase.

    Just my three cents worth.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Shawn C.

    I totally agree with all your points!

    That's what I left out of my post. My current conversion rate is $650 spent in marketing lands me 1 conversion. That is from 2 campaigns, so it is a smaller sample pool. 

    But what I have learned, and I can attest to is that response rate isn't nearly a good of measure as conversion rate for a campaign. 

    With that being said, in list of importance, in my opinion, is the list you are mailing, the number of times you hit the target with a brand, and then the piece you hit them with (as long as you have a brand to market with).

    Thanks for the Three Cents worth! Lol. Great point made, thanks for continuing this potentially knowledgeable discussion!

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Shawn C. 

    PM me if you'd like to see a sample of what I am working with in Houston. It'd be awesome to see what you think of the list and it's potential in Austin. Austin is my next move for my brother and I with both wholesaling/flipping and working in the market place, and we already have our favorite Houston lists, Vacants (scrubbed code violations) and Scrubbed probates underway in Austin. Currently just increasing quality of leads and I will be finished with that next week!

  • Investor · Sulphur, LA · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 41 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed how often do you pull info from the probate records and how often do you scrub your list?

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    I pull monthly, and I scrub while pulling the new leads. More importantly I filter the leads that I pull. I try to get vacant and inherited properties, and if I can get out of state, all the better!

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2016 · 18 posts · 8 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed I'm in Houston, may I see the sample you mentioned? Will PM you. 

  • Justin SilverioPro Member
    Developer · Andover, MA · Member since 2008 · 1k+ posts · 489 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed As others have mentioned, why would you sell this list if it's in your market and you're having success picking up deals?  How much could you make from the list vs. how many extra deals could you pick up because you don't have much competition in that niche?   If I were in your shoes, I would only offer this if you can get the data outside of your market.  And from a consumer's perspective, I would want to know how many people you are selling the data to.  Places like US Leads List sell their data at a premium because they are only letting 3 people per area use their info.  I'm not saying it's a good/bad deal (I've never used the service) but that's why they can charge more.

    I do agree with you though, most people don't focus on their lead lists but it's one of the most important aspects in creating a successful DM campaign.

    Good luck!

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Justin Silverio

    Great comment and perspective! My main thing is I would be similar but sell to 4 other investors and market it myself to make 5. My experience with these quality of leads is that there is more to go around than the usual list. There is no shortage of deals. Having people fund my campaign will eliminate my worries to fund a campaign, and I will still land at least 1 deal from each list per month. Currently in Houston, I do sell the list to 2 others, and I haven't noticed a decline of response or conversion. They've landed deals outside my response. It's interesting and I wish I understood the science of certain sellers responses to certain pieces of mail. In conclusion, if 80% of these people had true motivation, mailing them 7 times, I'd still only connect on max 14-21, and there's way more meat on Thebes's bone out there. It's worth giving up the risk of maybe losing out on 1 deal in the long run. Plus it's my 1 way to add extra value to the investor market place!

    Thanks again for the comment!

  • Investor · Sulphur, LA · Member since 2013 · 126 posts · 41 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed why not more often than monthly? Is that your choice or because of the local probate court?

  • Investor / Vendor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 949 votes
    9y

    Isn't this a contradiction? @Account Closed

    "I have become known in my niche as the guy who provides the value with the leads I provide and the lists I bring. It helps me to network and provide value to other investors I network with." 

    and

    "My current conversion rate is $650 spent in marketing lands me 1 conversion. That is from 2 campaigns, so it is a smaller sample pool."

    Hard to become known from just 2 campaigns. Color me skeptical, but if your list was that valuable you wouldn't sell it cheap. You create a lose-lose situation: if the 4 other investors pay for your list and have little results because you mailed to the list first to cherry pick it, then they waste their money; if any of the 4 gets the deal, you would've been better off not selling the list.

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Ray Lai

    I see what you're saying, but perhaps what I said was either misworded or misinterpreted. 

    2 campaigns for me equals 10 mailings. 5 mailings each campaign. Each mailing costs me about $500. $5000 in total. Of that $5000 spent I am about to land an 8th deal. The numbers aren't round in reality, some mailings costed a bit more, some a bit less. 

    No one said my list is cheap either, just cheaper than competition. I haven't really sold my list as a practice, just from popular demand in my market place, and that lead me to wanting to sell me list for a fair price, yet making it worth it for me by easily funding campaigns.

    I think you're coming from a lot of investors point of view, but on this list there are an abundance of deals to be made, and like I have mentioned, for some reason some marketing lands different deals. While it may increase the competition, it hasn't affected me getting leads or converting. In my hypothetical example comparing to listsource, I believe these leads have way more people wanting to sell soon. I could never land even 100 from a list of 1000, and at least 100 are probably selling in some way.

    In conclusion, selling my list at a fair but worthy price, allows me to fund campaigns for virtually free now but not get deals "stolen" from me (I don't worry for deals being stolen, I was taught by a good mentor about the abundance of deals in any marketplace). The investors that buy my list, absolutely love it. All investors Dont direct mail either, I have one guy I sell to who aggressively cold calls and door knocks, he reaches deals I may not have ever gotten close to getting a response from. And of course more motivated sellers have More options and higher chance of being found in a time of dire need, which is why we are here anyway, right? To provide value. I think it's glass half-full vs glass half empty. You may see a lose-lose, but I can only see a small potential loss, and an even greater consecutive win.

    Another note, I birrddogged and co-wholesales for 2.5 years prior to my 2 campaigns that I worked alone on. So I have been in some way practicing lead conversion and finding the best leads for awhile. Since I was taught the list is the most important part of a campaign, I spent more than a hundred hours finding code violations and personally digging through probates, asking lawyers, and finding out each case type/each documents meaning. During networking events instead of mooching, I was always (in my low experience) able to provide a ton of value talking to others because of this knowledge. It built a buyers list and credibility. Both wholesalers and flippers were telling me to send leads there way after talking about the leads that I market to, and even asked to buy the list in he past. 

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    Monthly, the way that I qualify my leads as inheriting or already inherited property, I only pull 300-500 per month. It's only worth it to pull it monthly. So on September 1st I get all of july's leads, and on October 1st I get all of augusts leads. It gives a buffer time to make sure the list is perfect. It takes around 70hours for a va to put the list together correctly. 

  • Jill DeWitPro Member
    Investor · Scottsdale AZ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 423 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    Why not cut to the chase and get the mack daddy assessor data immediately? (Not a list and no VA needed.) You can spend a few hours one afternoon and download a SUPER specific list of property owners that meet your purchase criteria and mail them an offer.

    Check out offers2owners, coming soon to the general public, if you want data & mailings done for you.

    In the meantime you can get CoreLogic's RealQuestPro for half the price at via "ownersdata".  

    Hope that helps!

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Jill DeWit

    If you're not just soliciting a product you plan on bringing to the market place, do you care to elaborate? It sounds like an interesting thing!

    Also would like some input to carry the conversation out with what you think of the topic on lists and leads and direct mailing different leads!

  • Magnolia, TX · Member since 2014 · 40 posts · 7 votes
    9y
    Troy contact I would be interested in talking to you about your leads and see if there is anything we can help you with
  • Jill DeWitPro Member
    Investor · Scottsdale AZ · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 423 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed

    Happy to help - what specific questions do you have? 

    The point is - you want to send out personalized, targeted offers/mailers to whatever group you are trying to reach and get the motivated ones contacting you back. Much more efficient than things like trolling the MLS every day or driving for dollars.

    Here is an example: Say you send a postcard to every homeowner in 12345 zip code stating you want to buy their home and you pay cash. What will happen? Everyone will call you back and you don't have time to talk to everyone - especially the ones that are looking for top $. 

    Instead, you access the assessor data and create your own list of only the homeowners with no mortgage, 3 bd/2ba sfr, assessed value between x and y, in x subdivision and send those folks a personalized offer of X (you already ran the price/sq ft that you are willing to pay), and wait for them call you back?

    Result? The folks that are motivated, in your price range, in the type of home and area you are looking for, and have no mortgage (so they can actually make the decision, not the bank) will call you back. 

    More mailers = more response. (Hey, with my partner, we have over 15,000 completed transactions since the 90s. It works.)

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Jill DeWit

    While I do like that direct approach, I do think you get less bang for your buck, compared to mailing better lists that are more pre-qualified. Multiple ways to skin a cat, especially in a market with such abundance, such as real estate.

  • Boston , MA · Member since 2014 · 1 post · 1 vote
    9y

    @Account Closed, Would you be able to get the list in other states? Could I possibly see an example of the Houston market list? 

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Shermika R.

    I'm definitely interested in spreading to other markets, since the lists are so peculiar it takes a bit to put them together. 

    PM me your email, and I'll send you over samples and discuss what I can do for you over there in Boston.

  • Houston, TX · Member since 2010 · 3 posts · 3 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed 

    I'm in the Houston market and would say that the list does play a major role. I would definitely consider buying the list "repeatedly" after doing a DM test run on it.  I saw from your earlier comments that you have more leads than what you can close. I would be interested in connecting with you for a list, or possibly getting a wholesale deal from you. PM me your contact info (email/phone). I have a property off 610/290 that I'm finishing up and will need to get into another deal soon.

  • Rental Property Investor · Boone, NC · Member since 2015 · 291 posts · 88 votes
    9y

    @Account Closed do you wholesale some of your deals?

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