How much should a PM involve Landlord?

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How much should a PM involve Landlord?

Mike M.
Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes

Hey guys,

I've been self-managing for 5 or so years now but recently turned over the PM on a couple properties to a local property management in town. I'm so use to being involved in the day-to-day business of the property management side of things so I'm struggling to understand how much the new property manager should be communicating with me and how often.

As an example, I had a tenant break a garage door recently (drove into the door on accident). Only reason i found out is because the tenant notified me, not even the property manager. In speaking with the property manager she issued the Tenant a 14 day noncompliance letter to purchase and repair the garage door on his own. At the end of the 14 day period it would be my choice to fix the door and charge him or to take other measures.

When i asked her if she would send me a copy of the noncompliance letter to the tenant, she said she wouldnt do that unless this goes to court. 

Does that sound normal to you?

I totally value and want a property manager to take the day-to-day management off my hands, but on issues with tenant damage and I would like to be kept up to date on matters, as well as have copies of all notices provided to the tenants for my own record keeping. 

Lastly, when i try and call them to speak to my property manager 99% of the time I wind up having to submit a note in their portal and wait for a call back.

As to to the new garage door that will be installed by the tenant, I wish they would be more involved, giving the tenant some options of companies to call, and to walk them through the repair process.


Am i wrong in any of these thoughts or concerns about my current PM---or---do i need to let the property manager do their thing and learn to take a step back?

I'd be curious to hear from you all how involved a property manager keeps you into your properties.

Many thanks!

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Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
2y

I'm getting conflicting messages here. You say that you want to be hands off and let the PM handle things, but then you're upset they won't give you a copy of a letter? That smacks of micro-management.

But I clearly don't know the whole picture. It's important that you schedule a time with the PM to cover expectations and boundaries. Find out how they prefer to communicate, when you can expect communication, and when they can run the operation without you bothering them. It's different with every PM and owner.

I'm a very "in charge" operation. I know how to manage rentals better than most landlords, so I have a hard conversation with owners up front that I expect them to leave me alone. I communicate with owners when there's a change in their income stream or when I need their permission to do something. Otherwise, I operate each property as if it were my own, always keeping the owner's best interests in mind. It works well because I proactively communicate in a manner that instills confidence in my owners.

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  • Dan Thomas
    Rental Property Investor · Bow, NH · Member since 2016 · 216 posts · 185 votes
    2y

    I suspect this has a lot to do with the particular PM company.  I have 3 of my houses with 2 different PM's.  One is a very large company and the other is a 3 man show.  They both pick up the phone when I call and would not tolerate having to submit notes in a portal.  The large company works a lot like you describe.  They handle issues professionally and I don't ever really hear about them unless it affects my bottom line.  The much smaller company I hear from a couple times a month, he takes me out for beers when I am in town.  We have a great relationship and great line of communication.  I don't think it has anything to do with the size of the company but the smaller guy it is just his personality.  He cares about over communicating and being on the same page with his clients.

    If your not satisfied it is worth having an open and honest conversation with the PM....Let them know that you were very hands on and are used to being more involved.  I might ask for a bit more communication than you are getting and hear what they have to say....If you're not happy with the response, shop around....

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  • Adam BartomeoBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Cape Coral, FL · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    It sounds like this company/pm may have more important things to do... They may have a lot of bigger owners that they are dealing with or this could be their system. This is typical in our industry and why a lot of owners come on board with us.

    ALL of my owners have my direct cell and know they can call me any time. My staff knows that if an owner is calling that they need to do their best to answer that call.

    We do not allow the tenants to make repairs whatsoever. We take care of that! In this case we would just charge the tenant for the repair that we facilitated.

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  • Gregory SchwartzBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · College Station, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y

    What expectations were set up front? It feels like a miscommunication between your expectations and theirs. Personally I'd want to know any expenses over a specific dollar amount and would want to know about lease violations, rent that wasn't collected by the 15th, tenant requesting early termination etc. 

    A tenant damages the property where the expense is $1500+. Yes, I would want to know about that.

    Start by asking the policy for what situations trigger an update to you the landlord.  

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  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    2y

    @Mike M. two variables here: 

    1) SOPs of the PMC

    2) Owner Preferences

    These two variables need to match for a good relationship.

    Recommend you make a list of your preferences and email to your PMC and ask to schedule a call to discuss.

    We share EVERYTHING with our owner clients, yet many complain we communicate too much! Fortunately, our software provider continues to improve their product and allow owners to select alerts they want and don't want.

    Next, we've asked our software provider to add a feature that would allow our owner clients to select from: Immediate Alerts, Daily Alert Summary, Weekly Summary, Monthly Summary.

    Of course, we call owners when there's a critical issue.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y

    I'm getting conflicting messages here. You say that you want to be hands off and let the PM handle things, but then you're upset they won't give you a copy of a letter? That smacks of micro-management.

    But I clearly don't know the whole picture. It's important that you schedule a time with the PM to cover expectations and boundaries. Find out how they prefer to communicate, when you can expect communication, and when they can run the operation without you bothering them. It's different with every PM and owner.

    I'm a very "in charge" operation. I know how to manage rentals better than most landlords, so I have a hard conversation with owners up front that I expect them to leave me alone. I communicate with owners when there's a change in their income stream or when I need their permission to do something. Otherwise, I operate each property as if it were my own, always keeping the owner's best interests in mind. It works well because I proactively communicate in a manner that instills confidence in my owners.

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    I'm getting conflicting messages here. You say that you want to be hands off and let the PM handle things, but then you're upset they won't give you a copy of a letter? That smacks of micro-management.

    But I clearly don't know the whole picture. It's important that you schedule a time with the PM to cover expectations and boundaries. Find out how they prefer to communicate, when you can expect communication, and when they can run the operation without you bothering them. It's different with every PM and owner.

    I'm a very "in charge" operation. I know how to manage rentals better than most landlords, so I have a hard conversation with owners up front that I expect them to leave me alone. I communicate with owners when there's a change in their income stream or when I need their permission to do something. Otherwise, I operate each property as if it were my own, always keeping the owner's best interests in mind. It works well because I proactively communicate in a manner that instills confidence in my owners.

    @Nathan Gesner - glad you chimed in and am going to ask you to please clarify. 

    I have no issues with what you state regarding letting the PM run the show (that is indeed why I hired him) — but shouldn’t I have insight into what’s going on with my property? 

    Maybe it’s the commercial lender in me, but I think it’s good business practice to retain, or at the very least have access to, all notices and documents that were given to the tenant. After all, they are representing me and are my hired agent- and I may need these documents for legal proceedings against the tenant.  

    It also would be nice to see open work orders etc. What I’m asking for is pretty simple, a window into understanding what’s happening at my investment property. 

    If a tenant were to cause $2500 damage to a shower glass door - would you provide a noncompliance letter to the tenant and give them an opportunity to fix it, or would you take the reigns and fix it yourself and bill the tenant (to @Adam Bartomeo’s point)?

    Thank you all for your contributions to this thread - let’s keep em coming! 

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  • Stephanie Walker
    Realtor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2023 · 245 posts · 231 votes
    2y

    I recommend setting a time to chat with your PM and set expectations for communications that work for both of you.

    Most of my owner clients want less communication. They hear from me once a month when they receive their statements and they hear from me if/when there is a non-emergent issue beyond $500+. I have some owners that prefer to keep in pretty constant communication and that’s okay too.

    When I take over management, I treat the homes like my own. I make decisions with the owner’s best interest in mind, first and foremost. My owners get to know me in the process and most of them trust me right off the bat to handle things as I see fit. I don’t like being micro-managed but understand that some owners need that extra reassurance and I’m happy to give that to them. 

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Stephanie Walker:

    I recommend setting a time to chat with your PM and set expectations for communications that work for both of you.

    Most of my owner clients want less communication. They hear from me once a month when they receive their statements and they hear from me if/when there is a non-emergent issue beyond $500+. I have some owners that prefer to keep in pretty constant communication and that’s okay too.

    When I take over management, I treat the homes like my own. I make decisions with the owner’s best interest in mind, first and foremost. My owners get to know me in the process and most of them trust me right off the bat to handle things as I see fit. I don’t like being micro-managed but understand that some owners need that extra reassurance and I’m happy to give that to them. 

    Thanks Stephanie. Is wanting insight into what work orders are outstanding, documents/notices they are sending tenants about non-compliance, or trying to understand how they are going to manage the process of a broken shower glass door ($2500) by a tenant micromanaging?

    I would think it’s SOP for a PM. 

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  • Stephanie Walker
    Realtor · Charlotte, NC · Member since 2023 · 245 posts · 231 votes
    2y

    Absolutely not. You have every right to want to be involved. This is your house. However, some PM companies aren’t as transparent - especially bigger ones. I would read your PM agreement. I personally don’t have anything written regarding repair processes because that can be pretty situational but my owners are always aware of costlier issues, myself and my team are open books and they all have access directly to me or my husband/co-owner.

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Stephanie Walker:

    Absolutely not. You have every right to want to be involved. This is your house. However, some PM companies aren’t as transparent - especially bigger ones. I would read your PM agreement. I personally don’t have anything written regarding repair processes because that can be pretty situational but my owners are always aware of costlier issues, myself and my team are open books and they all have access directly to me or my husband/co-owner.

    You bring up really good points and I'm grateful for your feedback on this. At the end of the day, I guess what I'm trying to understand, is what I'm asking for atypical for a property manager? These are single family homes that are worth anywhere from $500k-$1.25M, rented on a long term basis to renters that are paying a lot of money so there is a standard of care that I'm expecting for myself and renters-- over what I would expect from a 1 bed / 1 bath renting for $750/month (no dig to anyone who owns these, in fact I wish I had more of these).

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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Mike M.  not sure I would agree with the option for the tenant to fix the door.  To what specification? with what vendors?  I think that is why I would be asking for the letter. What did they say about how well the door needs to be fixed? ask them.

    What amount is your PM authorized to fix without your approval?   I think you need to talk to the PM about how repairs are going to work and specifically for the case of tenant damage.  To me a letter that the tenant fixes it would only be ok if they had xyz garage door repair specified because that vendor won't cut corners at tenant request. Also if a tenant doesn't pay what happens?  

    How are you going to track for tenant repairs what was done if the tenant pays directly, is the PM sending the proof of repair to you including any warranty. 

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Mike M.:

    I'll ignore what's happening in your situation and explain how it would work in mine.

    Tenant breaks the garage door. I would immediately notify the tenant - in writing - that they are responsible for the repair. I would give them suggested vendors, a consequence for failing to complete, a deadline to complete the work, and notice that I will inspect to verify the work is done to my satisfaction.

    After notifying the tenant, then I would contact the owner (phone or email, depending on their personal preference and my time) and let them know what happened and how I'm addressing it. 

    That's it. The owner doesn't need to see my letter or listen to a recording of my phone call or get an update every day. I tell them my plan and I will update them if (a) the plan is completed, or (b) there is a deviation from the plan. For example, the tenant may tell me they can't afford to pay for a $2,500 replacement door, so I'll negotiate a payment plan (my PM Agreement authorizes me to negotiate on the owner's behalf) and then I will update the owner on that change. Because a payment plan is spread over a period of time, I would keep the owner updated regularly until the plan is complete.

    Again, I operate this way because I'm detailed, everything is documented, I'm confident in my process, and my owners know I operate with their best interest in mind every time. Your mileage may vary.
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  • Gregory SchwartzBusiness Member
    Rental Property Investor · College Station, TX · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Out of curiosity, do you require them to use the suggested vendors? I have been requiring my tenants to use my vetted contractors. There are a lot of licensed contractors that do half-*** work, I dont want my tenants fixing my house with those contractors. 
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  • Colleen F.Pro Member
    Investor · Narragansett, RI · Member since 2013 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner If you have preferred vendors and inspect that process makes sense.  If you negotiate a payment plan how does the vendor get paid? I assume you would have to notify the owner because they are fronting that money?

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Colleen F.:

    @Nathan Gesner If you have preferred vendors and inspect that process makes sense.  If you negotiate a payment plan how does the vendor get paid? I assume you would have to notify the owner because they are fronting that money?


     Yes, someone has to pay for the total cost up front and then tenant reimburses them. I've only done this a few times. In each case, the owner paid the bill and then tenant reimbursed.

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Gregory Schwartz:

    I don't dictate who they use. I require them to use someone licensed and insured, and the work must meet our standards. I give tenants my list of preferred vendors. As far as I remember, the tenant always chooses someone I've recommended.

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:
    Quote from @Mike M.:

    I'll ignore what's happening in your situation and explain how it would work in mine.

    Tenant breaks the garage door. I would immediately notify the tenant - in writing - that they are responsible for the repair. I would give them suggested vendors, a consequence for failing to complete, a deadline to complete the work, and notice that I will inspect to verify the work is done to my satisfaction.

    After notifying the tenant, then I would contact the owner (phone or email, depending on their personal preference and my time) and let them know what happened and how I'm addressing it. 

    That's it. The owner doesn't need to see my letter or listen to a recording of my phone call or get an update every day. I tell them my plan and I will update them if (a) the plan is completed, or (b) there is a deviation from the plan. For example, the tenant may tell me they can't afford to pay for a $2,500 replacement door, so I'll negotiate a payment plan (my PM Agreement authorizes me to negotiate on the owner's behalf) and then I will update the owner on that change. Because a payment plan is spread over a period of time, I would keep the owner updated regularly until the plan is complete.

    Again, I operate this way because I'm detailed, everything is documented, I'm confident in my process, and my owners know I operate with their best interest in mind every time. Your mileage may vary.
    Whether the landlord wants to see the letter or not should ultimately be up to the landlord not you. Granted this is your business and you can run it as you see fit. 

    I view a property management company as an outsourced employee, which means I should be managing them to my expectations. And if they aren’t meeting my expectations then they should be fired. No different than any other member of my team, doesn’t matter if you’re a contractor, accountant, lawyer etc. 
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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    2y

    No I would not expect my property manager to bother me with small repairs like a broken garage door. Thats literally why Im paying them is to deal with that stuff so I dont have to. 

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    No I would not expect my property manager to bother me with small repairs like a broken garage door. Thats literally why Im paying them is to deal with that stuff so I dont have to. 

    A new garage door today is $4,000. You don’t want to be aware of a $4,000 claim on a property you own? 
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  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Mike M.:
    Quote from @Russell Brazil:

    No I would not expect my property manager to bother me with small repairs like a broken garage door. Thats literally why Im paying them is to deal with that stuff so I dont have to. 

    A new garage door today is $4,000. You don’t want to be aware of a $4,000 claim on a property you own? 

     No. Thats why I have a repair escrow account with a PM for them to draw from.

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  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    There is a big difference between LL that want to know what's going on vs ones that want to know what's going on and then try to do the PM's job or tell the PM how to do their job. I think some PM's feel that the more communication they offer the greater chance the LL is going to micromanage them doing their job..... and sometimes they are dead on right. 

    I hire a PM to do their job.... but I personally want to know what's going on with my investment, so I need some form of communication from the PM. That may be an email or some portal that allows me to see notes about repairs or issue with the unit. Nothing involved or time consuming..... just some communication. I don't like surprises. 

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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
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    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y

    The PM already explained what's happening but the OP wants to see a copy of the letter sent to the tenant. That smacks of distrust or micro-management.

    I have this discussion with my owners before I accept the job. If they hire me to manage a property, they hire me to manage the property. I am not going to "partner" with someone that wants to be involved in every decision, particularly when the owner has very little experience compared to me. If you want to be that involved, go find one of those hungry discount managers desperate for the work.

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  • Ned J.Pro Member
    Investor · Manteca, CA · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    2y

    @Nathan Gesner... I don't see wanting to see the letter as overstepping my position as owner. Now telling you how to write the letter, wanting to alter the contents or how the situation is handled..... sure. Seeing it.... dont think that's asking too much. 

    I'm not a PM... I'm a veterinarian. If clients want to see all my notes, lab tests, radiology reports..... no problem, Here you go.... start questioning my thought process, work up, interpretation of test results or overall approach to the case.... yeah.... you dont trust me, hit the road. I get that..... look at the paperwork?.... here you go....

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  • Mike M.
    OP
    Denver CO · Member since 2015 · 69 posts · 9 votes
    2y
    Quote from @Nathan Gesner:

    The PM already explained what's happening but the OP wants to see a copy of the letter sent to the tenant. That smacks of distrust or micro-management.

    I have this discussion with my owners before I accept the job. If they hire me to manage a property, they hire me to manage the property. I am not going to "partner" with someone that wants to be involved in every decision, particularly when the owner has very little experience compared to me. If you want to be that involved, go find one of those hungry discount managers desperate for the work.

    I’m shocked you’ve grown to such a large size with that attitude. If asking for copies of notices and documentation means that you get triggered or micromanaged that doesn’t sound like a productive partnership to me. Maintaining records and copies of documents for retention purposes for a property I own is prudent business practice, a self managed HOA with ten units even knows this. I couldn’t imagine telling my attorney that my property manager doesn’t feel comfortable sharing notices and material communication to me. Wow! 
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  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    2y
    Quote from @Mike M.:


    It's nothing to get upset over. We live in a great country where I can operate my business one way, you can operate yours a different way. We can both have successful businesses and happy clients. I'm answering a question from my perspective as a professional property manager, and I can tell you that the hundreds of professionals I network with daily would agree with my perspective. But it doesn't mean my perspective is the only possible answer. 

    Ned J. is a vet, so here's a more accurate example. An owner brings in a 20-pound dog for a rabies vaccine. You tell them you will administer a rabies vaccine consisting of 0.4cc of Nobivac. The owner says, "Sounds good. Please provide me a copy of the dosage and administration sheet."

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