Toledo cash-flow screen: 148 of 758 listings passed. Locals, tell me where I'm wrong.

Toledo cash-flow screen: 148 of 758 listings passed. Locals, tell me where I'm wrong.

Member since 2020 · 21 posts · 5 votes

Last week I put up a Cleveland screen and got some good pushback. People wanted stress tests and a bad-debt line, and @Gladimir Lobo was right that a screen can't see condition, lead or what's happening street to street. So I ran Toledo the same way with those built in. I'm posting it so the people who actually own and manage there can correct it.

What I screened: every active listing from $60k to $600k in Toledo (single family, 2–4 units, condos), pulled Oct 23. That's 758 listings.

Assumptions: 25% down at 7% on a 30-year, 3% closing, 8% vacancy plus 2% bad debt, 7% repairs, 8% capex and 10% management. Rents come from HUD's fair market rents, discounted and capped at Zillow's rent index. Taxes are at the full non-owner-occupied rate, as if the auditor reassesses to purchase price. I ran insurance two ways: the Ohio average scaled to the house plus 20% for a landlord policy, and a flat $1,500 a year.

What came out:

- 148 of 758 cash flow with scaled insurance, and 38 clear $200 a month at 8% cash-on-cash. At a flat $1,500, it's 103, with 28 clearing that bar.

- 2–4 units held up a lot better than single family. Condos basically didn't work.

- The 1% rule fooled me again. Plenty of houses that hit it still lost money.

- Almost everything that worked is under $150k, and most of it is under $100k.

- The typical passer clears about $100–120 a month. That's thin.

Stress test: I hit it with 5% bad debt, 10% lower rent and 25% higher insurance all at once. 67 still cash flow (39 at $1,500), and most of those are 2–4 units. Of the single stresses, lower rent hurts the most.

What it can't see: condition, rehab, Toledo's lead-safe certificate for pre-1978 rentals, what the auditor really does after a sale, real insurance quotes, or which block you're on. It tells me where to spend time. It's not a buy list.

Three things I'd like from locals:

1. What does a rehabbed 3-bed single family actually rent for in 43605 and 43609?

2. What are you paying for a landlord policy on a $70–90k house? The difference between about $800 and $1,500 swings 45 listings.

3. Roughly what does a lead-safe certificate cost on an older single family or duplex, and how long does it take?

I built this screen through my business, Row Home Solutions. Throw me different assumptions and I'll rerun it.

Thomas

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  • Andrew FidlerBusiness Member
    Real Estate Broker · Toledo, OH · Member since 2011 · 385 posts · 434 votes
    16h

    @Thomas Fragoza I think you have a pretty solid start. Let's see what I can tell you about the area.

    1. What does a rehabbed 3-bed single family actually rent for in 43605 and 43609? - This is a fascinating $1000 rent range, Rentometer will start bragging about $1100 and I definitely see houses listing for sale with renters paying more than $1000 but the thing you really earn the income with is the resident STAYING in the house for 5 yrs vs jumping ship annually and causing turn over costs and down time.

    I remember when 3 bedroom rents hit $700/mo in 2010 and I thought I was rich. Seeing the rents climb has helped see the rent rate may give you bragging rights on BP but if you search the archives you will find me talking about my S8 rental who had been in the house for over 5 yrs and I'd netted close to 4x what I'd paid for the house. That same resident lives with me to this day...16 yrs later.

    I DONT WANT her paying the market rate...I want her to chat with her friends who just rented in the area and get to brag about the great deal she's getting on rent. That's what should happen when you stay at a place 16 yrs and the same carpeting is still there!

    2. What are you paying for a landlord policy on a $70–90k house? The difference between about $800 and $1,500 swings 45 listings. -

    I NEVER do replacement value, who in Toledo wants to rebuild if you had a total loss event? I run ACV policies covering 1.5x roughly my purchase price with $1M in liability and I am obscessed with a rider covering Loss of Rent...I have had several claims over the years and every time have used that rider to cover more than my deductible of $5k.

    I have a history with few claims and a full portfolio so I am probably the top tier of discount but I am ranging $650-750 for my properties in 43609, 43605, 43608, 43612, 43613.

    3. Roughly what does a lead-safe certificate cost on an older single family or duplex, and how long does it take?

    Wow this one is a wide WIDE distribution. If you buy a property that already has an active violation then you can pretty much take to the bank that you are buying an asset that someone already received quotes and decided to sell. Avoid historical districts like the plague, same with the outlying area surrounding the Old West End with huge properties with far too many windows.

    I help clients of our brokerage land properties that either A) have all the work done and we can command a good discount and don't need a lot of work to do a cert...or B) the place needs $20k in siding/soffit/fascia, probably half a dozen new windows, and a lead cert. This means we are buying a property with an active violation, commonly active in court, and the seller has to disclose the situation and we ensure we are getting the place at a steal (or we let the property sit till the seller comes to their senses).

    I have had properties need little to no paint repair because they were already sided or the paint is in unusually good condition and I have had properties where painters refuse to bid because the exterior wooden siding is compromised and rotting.

    Hey your database looks interesting...I can 100% tell you Toledo's single digit neighborhoods are the Pareto Principle...you make 80% of your money on 20% of those holdings and you want to avoid 80% of the neighborhood.

    Look me up if you have a chance to visit Toledo, it's the best way to sort the wheat from the chaff. Everybody from BP starts by saying they want the hoodiest hoody hood with some extrapolated calculation of what cash they can earn. Once we walk a few properties you get a feel for what's desirable and we always strap on an extra magazine or two and take a look at the super-challenging areas.

    The goal is to walk Toledo neighborhoods and invest where you are comfortable, you will know very quickly if the property you are considering is going to be exciting to a resident!

    • Member since 2020 · 21 posts · 5 votes
      15h

      Thanks, Andrew — this is exactly the kind of local correction I was hoping for.

      On rents: the ~$1,000 rehabbed 3-bed range in 43605/43609 (with Rentometer pushing closer to $1,100) is useful. Your point on tenure over headline rent is the one the screen can't see — turnover and vacancy eat thin cash flow fast, so a long stay at a fair rent can beat chasing top of market.

      On insurance: ACV at about 1.5× purchase plus Loss of Rent, landing around $650–750 on your book, is a lot tighter than the $800–$1,500 band I used. That alone would move a chunk of the pass list. I'll keep both a conservative band and a local-quote band when I rerun.

      On lead-safe: the A vs B path (cert-ready vs $20k exterior + active violation) and skipping historical / Old West End window monsters is the street-level filter the spreadsheet misses. Noted.

      Appreciate the Pareto note on the single-digit zips too — screen first, then walk. If I'm ever in Toledo, I'll take you up on looking at a few blocks in person.

      Curious: for a newer investor without your claims history, what insurance range do you usually see on a $70–90k house in those same zips before they have a full portfolio discount?

      - Thomas

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