What would YOUR next step be? Mostly newbie needing guidance.

What would YOUR next step be? Mostly newbie needing guidance.

Rehabber · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 4 votes

Hi all,
My husband and I are at a bit of a crossroads as to what to do next and I'd love to hear what input you can lend. We currently own 3 SF (4 incl our primary res). We do not have a clear business plan as of yet because we aren't 100% sure which niche we want to focus on for the future.

We've been buy and hold thus far with our properties, but we may try a flip on one of the next ones. That said, we don't have a clear cut strategy thus far.

I've already made some newbie mistakes and I'm now I want to move forward and learn from them. Here's the situation:

We are currently finishing up a remodel on a property that we intend to hold for at least five years due to the crazy appreciation Austin is experiencing. Newbie mistake with this deal is that we were anxious to get into a specific area in austin and after three other deals got snatched out from under us, we jumped into this one without paying enough attention to the numbers so we paid over for it than we should of. I'm not horribly worried though because of the appreciation it will experience. I know, that's speculation, but Austin is seriously off the cuff right now.

The problem is, is that we used all of our cash reserves and took out a 2 year 12% loan for the extra $20k we needed to close the deal. Deal closed, and the 20k loan payment is covered by cash flow from one of our other rentals. I feel kind of stupid, but whats done is done and we'll still have cash flow on all 3 properties.

I also have a big chunk of money to pay the IRS for last years taxes on my everyday business and also cap gain from a property I sold in Houston in 2011. Also, some mistakes made there, and I'm committed to doing better.
So, I went from having fantastic credit, to having no cash reserves and a chunk of debt. Add to that, that my husband got laid off two weeks ago and you can see where I'm at.
I fully admit that we are both not good money managers thus far and that this post has made nay of you cringe, but we are committed to learning from our mistakes!

So, we have some choices to make. Would you:

A.
sell a property ....specifically the one that is on our street which we have realized is a pain in the neck to be so close to tenants.
Mortgage is 166K, resale will be about 260k. Take proceeds, pay cap gains and use the rest to get rid of the tax debt and 20K loan and replenish cash reserve a bit. Basically put us back on level playing field.

B.
do a 1031 exchange to build our equity and just worry about the debt later

C.
continue to rent out all three and just keep hanging on?

D.
sell everything, move to an island somewhere and sell trinkets on the beach and drink a lot of rum:-)

Thank you all in advance for any advice!

0Reply
42 views

Most Popular Reply

Eric TaitPro Member
Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 146 votes
13y

I would go with plan A

You are still better than level because you will still own the other properties that cash flow.

You can get rid of your IRS and high interest loan, and then with the reserves you can go and sit with your husband and figure out your investment philosophy. One you all have figured out your personal investment philosophy and what you want your investments to accomplish for you, then spend some money on getting educated in that area.
Also, find a mentor that does what you want to do and offer to add value to them in return for learning.

Just my $0.02

See this reply in the discussion

24 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Eric TaitPro Member
    Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2013 · 314 posts · 146 votes
    13y

    I would go with plan A

    You are still better than level because you will still own the other properties that cash flow.

    You can get rid of your IRS and high interest loan, and then with the reserves you can go and sit with your husband and figure out your investment philosophy. One you all have figured out your personal investment philosophy and what you want your investments to accomplish for you, then spend some money on getting educated in that area.
    Also, find a mentor that does what you want to do and offer to add value to them in return for learning.

    Just my $0.02

  • Austin, TX · Member since 2011 · 119 posts · 46 votes
    13y

    I agree with Eric. Probably scenario A, although scenario D sounds like the most fun and less stress. The only other consideration is how much the properties are cash flowing. If they cash flow enough to pay off that 2nd lien in 2 years, then you could be better off just waiting it out and letting the cash flow pay down the debt for you.

    The biggest issue is the IRS. You don't want to be in debt to them. I would do whatever you have to do to pay them off as quickly as possible.

  • Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    13y

    Robyn Roberts I like what Eric Tait had to say. Getting that peace of mind will help take the pressure off and give your a chance to think creatively about unfolding opportunities.

    No one wants the IRS breathing on them! Best to you.

  • Real Estate Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 99 posts · 29 votes
    13y

    Robyn, I appreciate you sharing all the details of your situation. Although you may have made mistakes, the fact that you recognize them is a huge win on a personal level. Many people do not acknowledge mistakes, but you and your husband will grow stronger from them.

    I agree as well with Eric, not just cause of his name hehe, but it seems like a good solution. Worrying about the debt later is not a good solution, especially when its the IRS who is owed this debt. Pay off the debt, at least to the IRS and the high interest loans, and regroup.

    Perhaps in some time you can still do option D minus selling all your properties, but still getting some rum on the beach. Only if its out of a coconut with an umbrella toothpick sticking out.

  • Rehabber · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 4 votes
    13y

    Thank you Eric Hettena Eric Tait Jeff Clawson Al Williamson!
    That's pretty much what I thought would be the best solution and I'm glad I asked so that we can have piece of mind moving forward.
    There is such a game to be played with money and leveraging etc that I wanted to make sure we weren't missing an obvious option since mistakes have already been made. I'm sure we'll make more, but that's what life is all about!

  • Rehabber · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 4 votes
    13y

    Haha, PEACE of mind, not piece:-)

  • Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2009 · 718 posts · 913 votes
    13y

    I guess I'll play the contrarian here. I would go with Option C. First, unless you've got a great use for that money from selling the house or absolutely have to sell the to pay the IRS (which I can't tell from your post), I wouldn't do it. You're holding an asset in one of the hottest RE markets in the country with solid economic underpinnings. It's not like deals are just hanging out there like they were a couple of years ago. It sounds like the property is cash flowing well at least enough to cover the 20K loan. I've used short term financing like that in the past and it's never fun, but in the long run it has always worked out well for me. Also, I realize you drew a bad tenant, but chances are that was a one-time thing.

    I realize that sometimes the psychological needs have got to trump economic rationality, but it seems to me that this shouldn't be the case when you're just building your portfolio. I believe in being aggressive (though not stupid) when you're just starting out. You don't need to keep expanding but I wouldn't liquidate a property. I would just focus on rebuilding reserves over the next year or so and getting rid of the short term debt if it bothers you.

  • SFR Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2013 · 134 posts · 16 votes
    13y

    I'm right there with John Chapman - option C.

    The assumption is that you can make more with your investments than you lose from tax debt. When you follow the greatest level of interest, be that earning positive interest from investments, or paying the APR from your own debt, you make the strongest use of your assets at hand.

    A further caveat, if option B leads to a better stream of income and less risk while building equity, I'd opt there.

  • Investor · Cypress, TX · Member since 2013 · 403 posts · 59 votes
    13y

    Payoff the IRS first and foremost. This should be your main objective. Until that is done do not consider any other solutions.

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    I'll give you an option A.1....How long have you lived in your current home?

    If over 2 years sell your home and move into the rental, you will be able to avoid the capital gains. Now pay things off like you had said in A only you will net more money and have less owed. If you're somewhat close to 2 years play option C until you hit the cutoff, if hubby doesn't get a job then work on getting something sold, if he does get a job then C won't be as bad to follow through with.

    (No tax or legal advice)

  • Rehabber · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 4 votes
    13y

    John Chapman and Ryan Logsdon, thanks for the alternate opinions. Now I am really straddling the fence because my initial thought was not to cut away at our current holdings as you've said. I really have to do some soul searching on this.

    On one hand I would love to keep the house that I'm considering selling because it will easily be worth 350+ in the next 5-10 years as it is 6 miles from downtown and sits on half an acre.

    On the other hand, I've learned a lesson about buying a house in your own neighborhood. DON'T do it! I have to contend with neighbors always wanting to be in my business which is frustrating to say the least.

    Also with selling it, we would be able to immediately replenish our cash reserves, pay the IRS, and pay off the 20K loan which would really put me in a more secure state of mind.
    My credit would be good again and I'd be able to purchase another property once the husband gets back on his feet and we can keep playing the game and will still have our other two cash positive and appreciating rentals. One has 140 mortgage and is worth about 220 and the other will have a 170 mortgage and will be worth 240 once rehabbed. We get 1750 in rent on the one with the 140k mortgage, 500+ cash flow every month, cant beat that!

    Ben Hughes, yup agreed there!

    Matt Devincenzo, house we are in now....well that is a whole different story! We will be staying here for a looooong time. House sits on an acre and is 6 miles from downtown, very unique property.
    We tried to buy this house about 8 years ago and got outbid, about a year ago it went into foreclosure as a HUD and we were able to get it for about 40K less than we originally bid. Got it for 200K, once we are done remodeling it will easily be a 400k property and that's not even counting in the areas appreciation in 5-10 years. Total keeper:-)

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    My opinion, is to pay the IRS as slowly as possible in this case with an installment agreement now that your husband is unemployed. Your interest rate with the IRS is about 3%. You can earn that cash on cash very easily. Pay any other debt off first. Treat the IRS as a mortgage. You can avoid a penalty by simply making any kind of payment each month. If under 25k they will accept payment arrangements to make it over 5 years.

    Keep on keeping on. see if you can consolidate anything. Cut your living expenses. Call your lender and see if they will streamline your loan. Many people won't ask, but see if they can reamortize it without a full refi. (YES, it can happen).

    If the IRS gives you a hard time just ask me for advice here.

  • Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2012 · 266 posts · 128 votes
    13y

    This is a personal preference thing, and some people far more savvy than I would and have disagreed above. So what do I know...

    But here goes:

    To me - being cash-poor is a red flag. A 2-year loan at 12% is a red flag. And a debt to the IRS is a red flag. And frankly, relying on past appreciation to solve current problems is a yellow-ish flag.

    To me, the worst thing that an investment can do is cost you financial security, and it feels like you're potentially in danger of that happening.

    So, if I'm in your shoes, this is a no-briner. I'm taking a step back and selling a house (option A). This would get rid of all of those red flags, and put you in a position to grow in a more stable way.

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Robyn Roberts:
    On the other hand, I've learned a lesson about buying a house in your own neighborhood. DON'T do it! I have to contend with neighbors always wanting to be in my business which is frustrating to say the least.

    I personally have never had this problem, I think part of it may be your personality(I don't mean that in a bad way) as opposed to the actual problem of living near your rental. I know in your other thread the PM bailed on you, part of what I saw there was you placed the tenant but the PM was expected to manage, usually when this happens the PM does take a "I didn't create the problem so why should I fix it" attitude and they didn't get the leasing fee which is usually their big paycheck that helps them be willing to deal with these problems.

    Here is what I would do based upon Steven Hamilton II's description of the almost non existent interest on the IRS loan. Find a new PM now that will be handling everything from the advertising to the leasing to the rent collection. Tell anyone you know on the block that knows you own the property that you realized you don't like your tenant knowing you own the house so you've turned it over to management, and if possible encourage them not to mention it to a new tenant either. Then stay out of it, if there is a rave going on Sat night do like any other neighbor and call the cops/manager and let them deal with the problem.

    Then follow Steve's advice on the IRS loan and pay off your personal loan first. Then you can tackle the issue of IRS loan and anything else.

    P.S. I can see why you'd like to keep your current house too now that you described it.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    With the IRS, the interest isn't the issue, its the penalties that get you. Failure to file and failure to pay.

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    13y

    If I am reading things right the last one you bought sounds like a total dud.
    You said you make the 12% loan payment with cashflow from another rental.
    NOT good. Good that your portfolio as a whole cashflows but you should not get places that cost you money and are only supported by your good investments.

    You also seem to be drinking big time appreciation Kool Aid...
    That is a fine value play if you know the risks. You just seem to assume that things will keep going up with no blips or slowdowns for 5-10 years.
    You might be right or you might want to lay off the main stream media...

    I think the idea of selling your current residence, taking the tax free gains (If you have been there at least 2 years, though form a later post sounds like you might have only been there a year) and moving into your dud and refi that as an owner occupant. Sounds like you really want to stay in that house though.

    The last thing I would say to do is sell the one in your neighborhood just because you don't like being near your tenants. If that is one that actually makes you money that is a crazy reason to sell it to keep a crappier one.

    For this most recent one is the market going up fast enough and can you do work to it to maybe sell it as a quasi flip and cut your losses on it and just lick your wounds and find a deal that doesn't cost you money every month?

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    13y

    Steven Hamilton II I'm glad you followed up with that comment about penalties.
    I had a bad experience with the IRS last year with a loan like that.
    Basically had a cashflow issue where I was waiting for multiple flips to close right after taxes were due (On extension so no choice but to pay) so we set up one.
    I made one minimum payment then, I thought, paid the balance when I saw the interest seemed higher than they say and the penalties were crazy high.
    THEN after that I got one more bill saying I still owed like $40 and it has like $67 in interest and penalties. Called and talked to a IRS Drone that couldn't give me any explanation but seemed to indicate that the interest and penalties are calculated on the original balance not the current one.
    Is that really the case or did I just get hosed?

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Interest and penalties are calculated on the current balance per month. What you might want to consider is filing Form 843 Claim for Refund and Request for Abatement http://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/f843.pdf

    If you have a good filing record this can get rid of all penalties and interest. They would then refund any of the penalties you've paid.

    -Steven

  • Landlord and Rehabber · Newton, MA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 877 votes
    13y

    Thanks Steven Hamilton II I will look into that.

  • Rehabber · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 41 posts · 4 votes
    13y

    Thank you all again for your insights.
    Steven Hamilton II, thanks for the scoop on taxes, I am planning on paying them in installments, I just want to make it so I don't get behind on my quarterlies, but I think I can make that work out. I'm glad you made me aware of the %3 rate, it is hard to navigate the info on the IRS site. I may PM you in the near future with a question or two if you don't mind.
    My post was made while I was in a bit of a panic, so it comes off a bit worse than the reality. Even though the husband got laid off, I still operate a successful business and have enough to keep us afloat until he is employed again. It just seems in life that everything happens all at once!
    Jeremiah B., yep, some red flags here, correct, and need to re stabilize for sure!
    Matt Devincenzo We will be hard pressed to keep our nosey neighbors from telling any new tenants that we are the owners, but you are totally correct in that it really is just our personalities that allows that to annoy us. Yes to new PM! Last PM really exacerbated the tenant problem by non-responsiveness to him. We would have been better off and likely keeping the tenant if I had not hired them in the first place. Many issues with PM that have come to light since that post so we are just letting tenant go in 45 days and moving on.

    Shaun Reilly, I love the term "appreciation" kool aid! Although I may be drinking some, at least I'm not alone! Most investors in Austin are drinking it in copious amounts! Austin is truly exploding right now and if we were in any other city I'd smack myself for the last deal we did. However, it is getting harder and harder to find true 70% arv numbers right now. My main interest is more in having assets for retirement and not as much in the current cashflow, so it doesn't bother me all that much to borrow cash flow from one property to pay off the high interest two year loan on the current rehab. Perhaps it should bother me more than it does and I appreciate you bringing the hammer down on my kool aid party and I will definitely take all you said into advisement:-) Also, thanks for the reminder that nosey neighbors aren't really a good reason to get rid of a winning property.

    Thank you again everyone! It is amazing how helpful you all have been. We're still not %100 decided, but this post has given us plenty of food for thought.

  • Accountant, Enrolled Agent · Grayslake, IL · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    13y

    Robyn Roberts,

    That is the personal rate. If a corporation owes it is a slightly higher rate. I still recommend that you file for abatement just to try your luck. As you requested always feel free to PM a question or two.

    -Steven

  • Montreal, Quebec · Member since 2013 · 18 posts · 1 vote
    13y

    B.
    do a 1031 exchange to build our equity and just worry about the debt later

    If you want more cashflow, sell off your properties and 1031 exchange them into bigger properties. You will have more cashflow than single family homes.

  • Contractor · Round Rock, TX · Member since 2013 · 767 posts · 389 votes
    13y

    Watch the koolaid. Jim Jones gave that to his people. It's funny people forget the housing bust of a few years ago, it seems to me like we are starting the same train ride again. But the train is starting the journey and not derailing yet. It will appreciate for a while, the market will become saturated and it will come down, just as it did 5 years ago. You just have to be smart and get out before it does and it will. Pay the IRS off, build some cash reserves and keep them there.

  • Multi-family Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2011 · 29 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    It looks like you have quite large equity in each of your property. Why not take a home equity loan to pay off the IRS and high interest $20K?
    Some bank can even offer you equity loan for your investment property.

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.