Commercial Liability Policy

Commercial Liability Policy

J ScottPro Member
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Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes

I'm having a heck of a time getting a commercial liability policy for me and my business, and I'm looking for provider suggestions (or any suggestions, for that matter)...

First, I've never had a commercial policy...talking to my insurance agent in the past, we were pretty comfortable with all my subs having liability and workers comp, and me having a big personal umbrella policy for personal asset protection. Now, I'm in the process of getting my contractors license in Maryland, and one of the requirements is a commercial liability policy.

I've called agents for a couple of the big insurers (Erie, Travelers, etc), I explain what my business does -- this is always a little tricky explaining that I'm sort of a GC but that I own all of the properties myself -- and then within a couple days they come back and say they can't help me. I've learned that if I say I'm a "builder" instead of a "GC," that helps a bit. I've also learned that if I say that I am the on-site manager, that seems to get a better reaction (implying that I don't just sit in an office and trust my subs to not screw up). And I've learned that if I say I own all the properties, don't have employees and don't do any of the contracting myself, they seem to like that as well. I also say that I ensure all my subs provide proof of insurance.

Unfortunately, they all come back and say their insurers refuse to underwrite me. I was told by one agent that Erie Insurance has backed off writing policies for homes being resold. I was told by another agent that it would be no problem if I previously had commercial liability (and could provide loss runs from previous years), but since this would be my first policy, she couldn't help me (and that I'd have to go with a niche insurer as a first timer...but she couldn't recommend any of those).

So, I'm currently at a loss, and looking for any suggestions for either carriers/agents I may be able to call or what I might be saying that's turning everyone off?

Thanks in advance!

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Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

I think the breaking the business structure down will help you achieve the 'vanilla' status AND provide you with layers of protection. You also need to compartmentalize the risk (for them and you) so it fits into a specific category of company.

For example.

1. Buying/Selling/Holding Entity (one or many companies with different ownership, JVs, etc.) - This company does marketing for purchases, holds and contracts for rehab on properties. (Property and some liability per entity with limited exposure e.g. <$500k to $1M.

2. GC/Rehab - This company is a service provider for managing the (re)construction of single family residences in your state. Contracting, coordination, payment, code compliance, reporting, and oversight of subs are primary duties. One employee, you. You can get project-based insurance and some over-arching.

3. Property Management - Management of 3rd party properties.

4. Holding Company - Overarching entity which invests in other companies and projects including the above. This is an added layer of protection when something doesn't fit in with the rest, eg. JVs with others, Hard Money, writing, blogging, company car, etc.

5. You/Your Family. Personal assets. Home, personal auto, umbrella.

Rick

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  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Christopher Caporale:
    I'm an intern at a commercial liability insurance company in Wayne, PA (15 miles outside of Philadelphia) and they have a ton of real estate investor clients. It's the best company you'll probably ever get insurance from. When I plan on getting started in REI I am 100% using the company I currently work at. Its called United States Liability Insurance Group(USLI) and its owned by Berkshire Hathaway.

    Thanks Christopher...do you know if they write policies for contractors/companies located in Maryland?

  • Real Estate Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 3 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    @ J Scott

    Here is a list of their products. I'm pretty sure they provide it to Maryland. They also have offices located in CA,IL and TX. Maryland shouldn't be a problem...

    1-4 Family Dwellings Apartments Artisan Contractors
    Bars/Restaurants Child Care Concessionaires and Vendors
    Distributors Fitness Centers Games and Entertainment
    General Contractors Janitorial Services Land Leased to Others
    Lawn Care Lessor
  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks Christopher,

    I'm going to spend a couple days reorganizing my LLCs per my post above and then will give them a call to see if they can help.

    Appreciate everyone's help!

  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    If you were only acting as your own GC, then your strategy of having a policy for the rehab and GC business is ok, but still not great.

    However, if you GC on a partner deal or someone else's deal then you're pretty exposed.

    For example, what if you GC a project and the deck collapses two years later because of negligence. As a licensed expert, you're going to be named in the lawsuit. As a an unlicensed rehabber, you probably wouldn't be named.

    Another scenario (and exposure) is you GC a project that's a JV. Your subcontractor fails to perform. Your JV partner sues you, the GC.

    GC might have some exposure to accidents on-site -- much more so than a rehabber because working conditions would be GC responsibility. Electrician dies from mold exposure.

    Really, the coverages under the GC policy and concerns of a GC are different from an arms length rehabber.

    As a rehabber (really an investor), you're business is a desk job doing deals, hiring/firing contractors, not construction (even though we may stray). Your commercial risks might be intellectual property, fiduciary responsibility, failure to perform (on a JV deal), buying a Homepath during owner occupancy period, etc.

    The GC license (like passing the bar exam or going to medical school) makes you more of an expert so you should really want specific coverage and layers of coverage even if it costs more.

    Your umbrella won't help the business in these cases. It specifically excludes business. However, if someone pierces the LLC veil, then it probably comes into play.

    Probably more info than you need at this point.

    Rick

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    Rick,

    Never too much info, thanks!

    That makes a lot of sense and your examples were great. This (and Tyrus' points) are enough to convince me that I should just separate the businesses into two and treat the liability concerns independently. Going to register a new LLC tomorrow to hold my GC license and do the construction work -- hopefully this will also make it easier to obtain insurance.

    Again, thanks all! Will let you know how it goes...

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
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    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @J Scott I have my contractors license, and my business is called 1st American Construction. Our LLC that develops the projects and buys the real estate is Parlay Investments. My husband is a broker, I'm an agent, as is my son, and our real estate company is The Margrave Group. Parlay Investments contracts with 1st American Construction that acts as the General Contractor on jobs, and we've never had a problem with insurance. If you're worried about branding, you can use the same name, just have one be real estate the other construction, etc. However; my GC license is not on a corporation, I keep it under my name DBA 1st American.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    Thanks Karen! That's pretty much what we've decided to do (thanks to everyone's feedback)...

    We'll have one LLC that holds our rentals. One LLC that buys our rehabs and does our spec builds. And one LLC where I hold my license (this LLC contracts to the first two LLCs). We already hold our real estate licenses in a separate LLC.

    Two questions (for you or others):

    1. Is there an obvious advantage/disadvantage to you holding your license as a sole proprietor (and DBA),as opposed to holding your license under an LLC? Is insurance easier to get? Is there more exposure/risk to your personal assets?

    2. I assume you have a commercial liability policy under your name (and DBA) for your GC work. How do you handle liability insurance for your building company (Parlay)...do you have a commercial policy or is it covered per property under a builder's risk policy?

  • Karen MargraveBusiness Member
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    Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @J Scott (for some reason your name is always on the bottom of the list and when I try to scroll down to click it, I lose the list!)

    In California when you hold a license of any type, whether you actually use it to generate income or not, they estimate taxes of the income you should be getting with it, and you are sent a tax bill by the State, unless your license is not active. You might want to check on that in your state.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Karen Margrave:

    In California when you hold a license of any type, whether you actually use it to generate income or not, they estimate taxes of the income you should be getting with it, and you are sent a tax bill by the State, unless your license is not active. You might want to check on that in your state.

    I've actually been thinking a lot about the fact that you hold your license under your name/dba, as opposed to in a business entity. And the more I think about it, the more I like that idea for myself.

    The benefits I see:

    - I don't have to deal with the overhead/expense of registering and maintaining a business entity;

    - I don't have to deal with the tax filings for maintaining a business entity;

    - I imagine getting a liability policy as a sole proprietor contractor would be easier than under a business entity (though I could be wrong about that);

    - I'm only doing work for myself, so I don't have to worry about having a business entity that doesn't make any money (and I don't have to arbitrarily "pay" myself for work done);

    - I keep a large personal umbrella policy, so I don't believe I'm incurring any additional risk by holding my license in my name;

    - I can always move to a business entity in the future if necessary...this is probably easier than going the other way from an entity to my name (would need to dissolve the company, etc.)

    I'm going to call around to a few insurance agents/brokers on Monday and see if getting a commercial policy in my name (as a GC) is easier than in a business
    entity.

  • Hartford, CT · Member since 2013 · 6 posts · 1 vote
    12y

    Hi @J Scott - I have worked in underwriting for professional liability / specialty lines and these days not a lot of insurance companies are writing business that have anything to do with real estate. I have seen law firms (who have a RE practice ) and property management companies get written right off the books because there have been so many claims over the past few years from these types of policies. RE is now considered a high hazard area of practice. You might have an easier time trying to do it in your own name but since you do have employees working under you (they may expose you to risk) it might not matter to the insurance company. You just have to shop around and be as specific as possible describing your role when you fill out the application. Most insurance companies who have a professional liability book of business use agents exclusively for new business. I have seen quite a few cases where we don't particularly want a certain policy but because the agent is a strong producer for us we will write that policy just because we don't want to jeopardize other business that may be coming in from that agent.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 146 posts · 21 votes
    12y

    I would definately try to find a specialty carrier that services your state. This is someone who specializes in general liability insurance and will have the most options for you. I would just google "general liability insurance texas" or your state. I'd call up three or so companies and get quotes from them. I would also make sure to talk to at least one or 2 brokers in this mix. Good luck to you.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    12y

    First, thanks again for all the helpful suggestions in this thread!

    A quick update:

    - I took the general advice of splitting the GC portion of my work from the rehab and rental businesses. The rehab and rental businesses are all under LLCs, and I decided that I'd apply for my GC license as a Sole Proprietor.

    - The first agent I called about getting liability insurance under the new structure (just insurance for my GC sole prop) was able to get my quote, so that's good. The bad news was that it was for $2800, which was a good bit more than I was expecting.

    - I called a couple other agents/brokers and am waiting for a couple more quotes.

    - Something else I realized (after asking one of the agents) is that if I technically hold my GC license as a sole proprietor, for the liability coverage to actually cover me, the contracts and the payments to my subs would have to come from me personally, not from the rehab and rental businesses. This isn't a huge deal, other than the fact that I wouldn't want to commingle personal and business funds, especially since a couple of the LLCs have members other than my wife and myself.

    - So, I'm likely going to set up another LLC for my GC license (instead of doing it as a sole prop), so I can pay contractors out of that business and then reimburse myself as the GC from the other businesses.

    - The only downside to holding the GC license in the LLC versus the sole proprietorship is that my Workers Comp premiums will likely be a bit higher. The actual costs are the same, but the minimum yearly premium is higher in the LLC.

    Anyway, that's the update...hopefully this thread will help others going through the same issues...more when I have more info...

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