Long distance real estate investing

Long distance real estate investing

Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes

Hello BP nation,

So I am currently in the educational phase inching closer to the idea of buying my first property. I have listened to over a hundred bigger pocket's podcast (both the real estate one and real estate rookie), read both long distance real estate investing and the BRRRR book, and even made my own spreadsheet so I could analyze deals. I love the idea of the BRRRR strategy, however with my current job, I am never in one place for long. For instance I just came back from Japan for a 5 month work trip, and I am about to travel to San Diego for an 11 month work trip, and I currently live near Tacoma, WA (probably spend the least amount of time home between those two places). At this point I think my only option is to invest in long distance real estate if I want to join the real estate investing club. I don't want bite off more than I can chew with my first deal, so as of right now I think I should stick with just long distance real estate investing with the plan of doing some BRRRR deals down the road when I get more comfortable with owning some properties of my own.

So my question is, what were some of the things you all wish you knew, or glad you had the knowledge of, prior to doing your first long distance deal?

Bonus question, if you had around $80k to work with, how would you go about using it in this situation?

I know this was long winded, and very about me, however I do really appreciate people taking the time to read this and any responses.  

Cheers!

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Andrew SyriosPro Member
Moderator
Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
6y

I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

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  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

    I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

    I immediately thought about when I was on a call with an investor that was in maybe NY and I was overviewing prices in OKC and he says that he literally can not believe the price points. We weren't even talking about high-risk areas! The cash flow markets are so drastically different from what many new investors have experienced. 

    This is really, really common. Coastal investors tend to think everything in the Midwest and Southeast is a good deal because it's so cheap. But cheap does not equal a good deal. You have to fight this instinct with everything you got!

  • Stephen FryerPro Member
    Investor · Ottawa ON / South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 186 posts · 93 votes
    6y

    Hi @Kevin Pfeil. 

    I invest in South Bend, IN and live in Ottawa, Canada. I've been in this maket since 2016. Looking back on my experience, I wish that I had implimented 3rd party oversight sooner. I trusted a contractor to manage a project, but did not have anyone overseeing his progress. It was an expensive lesson and wound up costing me $8K in a lost draw and about a month in lost time as I had to find another contractor to complete the project. 

    As Ronald Reagan said "TRUST BUT VERIFY'.

  • Developer · Ottawa, Ontario · Member since 2019 · 105 posts · 58 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Fryer I'm in Ottawa as well and I am curious about the starting steps to get positioned to buy in the US. Could you point me towards any resources that I could learn from?

  • Rental Property Investor · Portland, OR · Member since 2018 · 73 posts · 24 votes
    6y

    @Kevin Pfeil

    For finding “rockstars” I look at reviews. I look for agents/PM/Contractors who have high quality reviews AS WELL AS high volume of reviews. Also word of mouth. Chances that a rockstar agent knows a rockstar PM are higher than just googling. Although I have found great PM by googling and reading reviews

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Andrew Syrios that sounds like a smart goal to increase the velocity of your money and lead to success. Being able to get a property and repair it for 75% of the ARV is always great. Nice day to not have any money in the deal after the cash out refi. How often are you able to hit/surpass this mark?

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Fryer Yikes! That's a tough lesson to learn, but I'm sure you haven't made that same mistake twice. Love that quote from Reagan! It's very applicable throughout life, and I can see it being crucial in a successful investing career! So for your third party over sight would you just use your property manager to double check your contractors work? Also would you give them any incentives for those actions?

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @David Kuhlke sounds like you took a page out of David Greene's book with that one! Seems like a great system you have there. Thanks for the advice man, very easy to follow and helpful!

  • Rental Property Investor · Honolulu, HAWAII (HI) · Member since 2011 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    @Kevin Pfeil

    Birmingham, Atlanta, Indianapolis, Kansas City, Memphis, Little Rock, Jacksonville, Ohio, or other secondary or tertiary markets.

  • Stephen FryerPro Member
    Investor · Ottawa ON / South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 186 posts · 93 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Pfeil:

    @Stephen Fryer Yikes! That's a tough lesson to learn, but I'm sure you haven't made that same mistake twice. Love that quote from Reagan! It's very applicable throughout life, and I can see it being crucial in a successful investing career! So for your third party over sight would you just use your property manager to double check your contractors work? Also would you give them any incentives for those actions?

    Hey Kevin. Great question.

    For me, the person providing the oversight depends on the project. If I'm doing a fix and flip, my broker is providing the oversight. They have a vested interest in ensuring that the work runs smoothly so that they can get paid when they list the property. If I'm rehabbing a hold for my portfolio, I use my property manager. Same incentive. They want to make sure the work is completed quickly and up to South Bend's RSVP standard so that they can rent it quickly.

  • Stephen FryerPro Member
    Investor · Ottawa ON / South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 186 posts · 93 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Paul H.:

    @Stephen Fryer I'm in Ottawa as well and I am curious about the starting steps to get positioned to buy in the US. Could you point me towards any resources that I could learn from?

    Hey Paul. 

    Just sent you a connection request. Feel free to connect any time. Happy to share. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    If this is your first property in a long-distance location, would really, really recommend against it.  You're putting your whole trust (when acquiring) it in a broker to find something.  Once you buy it, you are trusting your property manager is doing a good job.

    If you have someone that knows the market and that'll be honest with you, that's a big jump.

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2019 · 956 posts · 600 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

    I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

    I immediately thought about when I was on a call with an investor that was in maybe NY and I was overviewing prices in OKC and he says that he literally can not believe the price points. We weren't even talking about high-risk areas! The cash flow markets are so drastically different from what many new investors have experienced.  

    This is really, really common. Coastal investors tend to think everything in the Midwest and Southeast is a good deal because it's so cheap. But cheap does not equal a good deal. You have to fight this instinct with everything you got!

    Low cost also doesn't mean wasteland haha! The cost of living is substantially lower here. You can get a solid new construction property for under 200k and you can get a great, lightly cosmetically renovated, with newer major mechanicals, cash flowing rental for 80k. It's just a different land. 

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

    I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

    I immediately thought about when I was on a call with an investor that was in maybe NY and I was overviewing prices in OKC and he says that he literally can not believe the price points. We weren't even talking about high-risk areas! The cash flow markets are so drastically different from what many new investors have experienced.  

    This is really, really common. Coastal investors tend to think everything in the Midwest and Southeast is a good deal because it's so cheap. But cheap does not equal a good deal. You have to fight this instinct with everything you got!

    Low cost also doesn't mean wasteland haha! The cost of living is substantially lower here. You can get a solid new construction property for under 200k and you can get a great, lightly cosmetically renovated, with newer major mechanicals, cash flowing rental for 80k. It's just a different land. 

    I'm in the Midwest as well and definitely agree. I'm not talking about $200K houses, more like $20k houses. The problem is that investors from the coasts just see a massive price difference and think "wow, this is so cheap! It must be a good deal." But every market is local and they have to readjust their thinking to less expensive markets like those where you and I live. And of course, no out of state investors should be buying in really bad areas, which unfortunately, some of the unscrupulous turnkey companies push the hardest.

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Pfeil:

    @Andrew Syrios that sounds like a smart goal to increase the velocity of your money and lead to success. Being able to get a property and repair it for 75% of the ARV is always great. Nice day to not have any money in the deal after the cash out refi. How often are you able to hit/surpass this mark?

    Our average all-in is about 81%. We could probably do a bit better but we buy in fairly high volume and have the cash resources to stomach leaving a bit in. Earlier on, when we (or lets be honest, I) weren't very good at budgeting rehab, that percentage wasn't as good. Fortunately, we've had a lot of appreciation since then.

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Stephen Fryer that makes perfect sense! Seems like the best way to leverage the team that you have! So since you leverage your team during the rehab process, do you leverage them when you purchase a place? Aka are you having them help you with your due diligence and inspection? Also how often are you physically there throughout the project (if you're even there at all?) 

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Steve Morris thanks for the advice. I do think there is potential to be taken advantage in long distance, however with adequate research and cross references I believe you can find a property manager that won't screw you over. I do agree I would prefer to do something locally, however since I am never in one place for a long enough time (my last two years looked like this Japan 5 months --> Washington 6 months --> Japan 5 months --> Washington 1 month --> San Diego 10 months) I can't exactly do the traditional local route. With this in mind, i'm curious what your thoughts would be for someone in my shoes on how they should go about getting involved in Real Estate Investing? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Madison, AL · Member since 2019 · 25 posts · 15 votes
    6y

    @Andrew Syrios 81% is still pretty solid in my mind. Leaving ~6 % of your money in is much better than 20 %. Makes sense your numbers weren't as tight starting off, seems natural. Is your group still doing the high volume that you normally produce with all the uncertainty that Covid has brought us?

  • Stephen FryerPro Member
    Investor · Ottawa ON / South Bend, IN · Member since 2013 · 186 posts · 93 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Pfeil:

    @Stephen Fryer that makes perfect sense! Seems like the best way to leverage the team that you have! So since you leverage your team during the rehab process, do you leverage them when you purchase a place? Aka are you having them help you with your due diligence and inspection? Also how often are you physically there throughout the project (if you're even there at all?) 

    Hey Kevin.

    I feel that real estate, like life, is a team sport. I try to make certain that the people implicated in the outcome are involved in the process. That way we are all on the same page. The following is a high level example of my process for a fix and flip:

    A) When a property is put under contract, I always include a 15 day due diligence/inspection period. During this time I will have my broker provide a CMA to ensure that the ARV that I have established is accurate.

    B) I will then have my contractor and broker walk the property together and do a video call, so that we can discuss repairs required and the extent of the rehab necessary to maximize returns for the neighborhood that the property is in. No point in putting in granite counter tops and gold toilets if you're never going to realize a return on those investments.

    C) If the numbers are still good we can proceed. If not, I am now armed with more precise information to go back to the seller and renegotiate.

    D) Assuming that the everything is a go, I will use the scope of work that I received from my contractor to create a project plan. That way I know what work is supposed to be completed by a specific date and I can use this to manage the scope, budget and schedule of the project.

    Payments to the contractor are completed in three draws; the first to get his team started and buy materials, the second to keep the project rolling and ensure that work has been completed on time, and the third when the final punch list has been satisfied.

    E) I've been working with my contractor for a while now and we know how the other thinks. We speak twice a week as a rule. Monday we meet to discuss the project plan and the deliverables for the week. Friday we connect again to review progress and any challenges encountered during the week. I expect a video walk through at this time so the I can have a record of what's going on.

    F) I've discovered through experience that third party oversight is a must, so I have my broker walk the property at the end of the week as well and report back on any issues that she sees. She has a vested interest in ensuring that the work proceeds smoothly, as she will be selling the property and doesn't want any unforeseen challenges at closing. As mentioned previously, final payment is only made after the punch list has been satisfied, so if we can limit surprises, the contractor can receive payment more smoothly.

    G) As I mentioned previously, the process is similar for a buy and hold, but I have my property manger perform the third party oversight. They have a vested interest ensuring that things run smoothly, as they will be managing the property going forward and don't want any issues at city inspection.

    I have been investing in South Bend since 2016 and have done the majority of my deals where I have never visited in person. Over the course of the last 6 months I have been visiting regularly, not to check out properties, but to meet with my stakeholders to build relationships. Those relationships have been essential in managing during the pandemic. Lucky break. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2019 · 956 posts · 600 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

    I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

    I immediately thought about when I was on a call with an investor that was in maybe NY and I was overviewing prices in OKC and he says that he literally can not believe the price points. We weren't even talking about high-risk areas! The cash flow markets are so drastically different from what many new investors have experienced.  

    This is really, really common. Coastal investors tend to think everything in the Midwest and Southeast is a good deal because it's so cheap. But cheap does not equal a good deal. You have to fight this instinct with everything you got!

    Low cost also doesn't mean wasteland haha! The cost of living is substantially lower here. You can get a solid new construction property for under 200k and you can get a great, lightly cosmetically renovated, with newer major mechanicals, cash flowing rental for 80k. It's just a different land.  

    I'm in the Midwest as well and definitely agree. I'm not talking about $200K houses, more like $20k houses. The problem is that investors from the coasts just see a massive price difference and think "wow, this is so cheap! It must be a good deal." But every market is local and they have to readjust their thinking to less expensive markets like those where you and I live. And of course, no out of state investors should be buying in really bad areas, which unfortunately, some of the unscrupulous turnkey companies push the hardest.

    Oh understood! I think OOS investors buying in the worst areas isn't the worst thing in the world.. but it has to be fully transparent. In my market, you can get 8% cap rates in general C class areas. These aren't high-risk areas. They feel like dated suburbia. It's the sweet spot for returns between risk and reward. We have higher risk areas that have a higher return and we don't block people from them, we're just very clear about why they're getting a 10% cap. I understand what you're saying though. Turnkey companies offering their shiny end products in the worst neighborhoods possible will hurt returns or at least has notable risk factors and that's something they're not disclosing. I totally agree with you that it's wrong.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Kevin Pfeil - "I'm curious what your thoughts would be for someone in my shoes on how they should go about getting involved in Real Estate Investing?"


    1) Get a mort broker and figure how much you can buy. On loans, I get buyers all the way from Dave Ramsay who says you should owe ZERO debt to the nothing down guys. I understand Mr Ramsay is great for the 90% of people that don't manage credit well or spend on fool-hardy things. However, for the 10% that do get it, using other people''s money allows you a lot more leverage plus any upside in price goes to you. I'd say figure on 70% LTV. Lower means less leverage of OPM and higher means more property but less CFBT for emergencies.

    2) Make sure you understand the fundamentals of rental properties and how money is made.  I'm not supposed to self-promote, but wrote a free 80-page book on buying apartments.  You can DM or whatever is secure to get an eMail address I can send a PDF to.

    3) If you do decide to go remote and have a prop mgr - When you own a property, I really prefer people that are involved at a high level. Prop mgrs should take care of lower level things like local lease laws and minor repairs and leasing. I think the discussion you have with them should be" What are the 3 (or whatever number) things we're going to do to increase NOI?" That's the basic discussion so you can decide on CapEx, enhancing tenant appeal, planning on future spending.

    4) If there is a city you want to buy in that is growing in a good way (I'm not real crazy about LAX/SFO for example) and want to be there (I think SE USA is good growth), then pick a city and talk to a broker there.  There are good neighborhoods (they are growing, the income/employers are there also and not much competing inventory) and bad neighborhoods.  PHX and LV are examples of this.  I'm a big proponent of buying cheaper and upgrading to increase your equity.

    Anyways, that's a lot to start, but let me know if other questions.


  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    @Kevin Pfeil given your hectic lifestyle and amount of travel, you obviously need a a highly passive approach. Turn key would be the best way to go in your circumstances. As in any business, there are good turn key companies and bad ones so do your homework and vet them well. Here are some things to look for and avoid in a turn key company.

    • Don't allow financing or a finance contingency (it can be a good indication they are selling above market value)
    • Don't allow for your own independent property inspection
    • Are not realistic with their pro forma's (i.e. they don't include vacancy or maintenance projections or use unrealistically low vacancy factors)
    • Require you to pay for any renovation upfront
    • Sell only in cheap. low end neighborhoods
    • Don't accurately represent the neighborhood/property classification
    • Don't have consistent rehab standards for all properties
    • Don't provide a scope of work for the property
    • Can't provide references of repeat investors
    • Require you to close before a tenant is in place
  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:
    Originally posted by @Kiera Underwood:
    Originally posted by @Andrew Syrios:

    I would say the big thing is to wipe your mind clean of assumptions that you have from the market you are in. Out of state deals will likely be cheaper than anything you've seen locally, but cheap doesn't mean good. Bad areas with bad management won't cash flow. Also, vet the team you are using carefully and don't be afraid to switch.

    I immediately thought about when I was on a call with an investor that was in maybe NY and I was overviewing prices in OKC and he says that he literally can not believe the price points. We weren't even talking about high-risk areas! The cash flow markets are so drastically different from what many new investors have experienced.  

    This is really, really common. Coastal investors tend to think everything in the Midwest and Southeast is a good deal because it's so cheap. But cheap does not equal a good deal. You have to fight this instinct with everything you got!

    Low cost also doesn't mean wasteland haha! The cost of living is substantially lower here. You can get a solid new construction property for under 200k and you can get a great, lightly cosmetically renovated, with newer major mechanicals, cash flowing rental for 80k. It's just a different land.  

    I'm in the Midwest as well and definitely agree. I'm not talking about $200K houses, more like $20k houses. The problem is that investors from the coasts just see a massive price difference and think "wow, this is so cheap! It must be a good deal." But every market is local and they have to readjust their thinking to less expensive markets like those where you and I live. And of course, no out of state investors should be buying in really bad areas, which unfortunately, some of the unscrupulous turnkey companies push the hardest.

    Oh understood! I think OOS investors buying in the worst areas isn't the worst thing in the world.. but it has to be fully transparent. In my market, you can get 8% cap rates in general C class areas. These aren't high-risk areas. They feel like dated suburbia. It's the sweet spot for returns between risk and reward. We have higher risk areas that have a higher return and we don't block people from them, we're just very clear about why they're getting a 10% cap. I understand what you're saying though. Turnkey companies offering their shiny end products in the worst neighborhoods possible will hurt returns or at least has notable risk factors and that's something they're not disclosing. I totally agree with you that it's wrong.

    I definitely agree that they need to at least be fully transparent. And while buying in lower end areas can be very lucrative if done right, I think the risk isn't worth it for out of state investors (or newbies). There's just too much risk and it's much harder to fix things if they go wrong or the turnkey operator isn't good/honest and you're living in another state. I think any out of state investor should buy one class above where they would be comfortable in their own city. (I.e. if the lowest class an investor would consider is C+, then they should at least do B- out of state.)

  • Andrew SyriosPro Member
    Moderator
    Residential Real Estate Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Kevin Pfeil:

    @Andrew Syrios 81% is still pretty solid in my mind. Leaving ~6 % of your money in is much better than 20 %. Makes sense your numbers weren't as tight starting off, seems natural. Is your group still doing the high volume that you normally produce with all the uncertainty that Covid has brought us?


    I agree and thank you. We're still buying right now, but very cautiously (more conservative offers, lower volume, etc.) If (and more likely when) the market falls, we'll try to catch it at the trough and buy a lot then.

  • Real Estate Agent · Oklahoma City, OK · Member since 2019 · 956 posts · 600 votes
    6y

    @Andrew Syrios I understand the thinking but disagree. I'm sure that's a rule that could work in some markets but In OKC the sweet spot is definitly C class rentals. I don't think someone needs to live in D class in another market in order to take advantage of that. If a provider focuses on a class and has a history of doing well there, I think it's a safer bet. 

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @David Kuhlke:

    @Kevin Pfeil

    For finding “rockstars” I look at reviews. I look for agents/PM/Contractors who have high quality reviews AS WELL AS high volume of reviews. Also word of mouth. Chances that a rockstar agent knows a rockstar PM are higher than just googling. Although I have found great PM by googling and reading reviews

    Beware YELP, those reviews cost.

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