Real Estate Fraud and Deceit

Real Estate Fraud and Deceit

Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes

My family was in a tenant in common situation at the cousins level now. We had a cousin sell his 1/8 interest to a firm that is a licensed real estate brokerage firm but also bills itself as a developer.

The local board of education made it clear that they were looking for land to build a new middle school and the identified our area as in the desired location.

They started the process by advertising an RFP. We didn’t respond because we could not get everyone to agree to list and because we can only see our interest then we couldn’t go into a contract to sell the property with the board. We just assumed if our area was identified then they would approach us for negotiations and take it from there.

Months and months passed and no contact so we assumed they chose another site. The firm made us an offer and the tenants accepted since we didn’t was to face a possible partition suit and the school never reached out.

Two months after we sold they announced that the school would go on our property.

I since did open records requests and found that the firm’s unlicensed president put the entire farm up for sale 3 weeks before the company took 1/8 title to the farm. They also were negotiating price despite not being full owner and even had the board of education sign a non disclosure agreement.

This sure seems like fraud, deceipt, unlicensed brokerage since the president is unlicensed and offering property for sale on others’ behalf without all owners’ consent and I assume the principal broker and managing broker could be looking at possible revocation for allowing this to occur.

Thoughts? Is this legal? I have been told that anyone can sell property as long as they get title before closing.

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Tom GimerBusiness Member
DMV · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
6y

Whoever sold the 12.5% to the wolves screwed the family. 

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  • Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    My family was in a tenant in common situation at the cousins level now. We had a cousin sell his 1/8 interest to a firm that is a licensed real estate brokerage firm but also bills itself as a developer. 

    The local board of education made it clear that they were looking for land to build a new middle school and the identified our area as in the desired location. 

    They started the process by advertising an RFP. We didn’t respond because we could not get everyone to agree to list and because we can only see our interest then we couldn’t go into a contract to sell the property with the board. We just assumed if our area was identified then they would approach us for negotiations and take it from there.

    Months and months passed and no contact so we assumed they chose another site. The firm made us an offer and the tenants accepted since we didn’t was to face a possible partition suit and the school never reached out.

    Two months after we sold they announced that the school would go on our property.

    I since did open records requests and found that the firm’s unlicensed president put the entire farm up for sale 3 weeks before the company took 1/8 title to the farm. They also were negotiating price despite not being full owner and even had the board of education sign a non disclosure agreement.

    This sure seems like fraud, deceipt, unlicensed brokerage since the president is unlicensed and offering property for sale on others’ behalf without all owners’ consent and I assume the principal broker and managing broker could be looking at possible revocation for allowing this to occur.

    Thoughts? Is this legal? I have been told that anyone can sell property as long as they get title before closing.

     You can't sell what you don't own. If he was trying to sell before he owned, that would probably be breaking a bunch of laws. I would gather all documents and visit with a real estate attorney.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mike M. I should also include...I discovered the attorney who was general counsel for the board of education was the same law firm as an attorney listed as an owner of the real estate firm.

  • Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Mike M. I should also include...I discovered the attorney who was general counsel for the board of education was the same law firm as an attorney listed as an owner of the real estate firm.

    Sounds like a small town. Things like that aren't supposed to happen but they do. If it's a small town you have to go to a larger city in the county and see if an attorney there will give an opinion on what to do. The other recourse is to contact the state bar association and ask if it is a conflict of interest and ask for their guidance.

    How much money do you think you were deprived of if you had sold directly to the school board? That would be your damages.

     

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mike M. The firm listed two separate parcels of land. One for 6.4 million the other for 5.1 million. The one parcel he sold for 6 million and paid all of us collectively 2.1 million. So at least 4 million in damages.

  • Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Mike M. The firm listed two separate parcels of land. One for 6.4 million the other for 5.1 million. The one parcel he sold for 6 million and paid all of us collectively 2.1 million. So at least 4 million in damages.

    Personally I'd file a lawsuit immediately and require that he put the proceeds of the sales into the registry of the court.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mike M. I have contacted the FBI for white collar crime, given all of my open records to the state auditor since it involves a government agency and filed complaints with the real estate commission.

    Ironically we have one parcel that we haven’t closed with this guy because it was a life estate and we had to clear title...apparently when he buys title matters, when he sales it doesn’t

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mike M. Plus my parents are in their 80’s. I need to go about this without a lot of stuff to make them aware. The sale already wore my mother down...she has no clue I have these records because if she knew what happened it would just kill her. She put her entire heart in that farm.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    I think you have taken appropriate action.. you could file a suit on your own of course or just wait to see what the authorities do..  Keep in mind on BP wholesaling without a license is encouraged by many so they will see nothing wrong with advertising something they dont own.. they will claim equitable interest vis a vi a contract in place.. will be interesting to see how your state reacts to all of this.

    Lastly some of the absolute biggest profits made in real estate is owning and selling land in the path of progress thats were true millions are made just like what happened to you folks.
  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    6y

    Im frankly not seeing the fraud.  All the time people negotiate to sell property that they can buy but do not own. If they cant make a profit, the purchases never happen...if they can, then offers are made. No one described here was a fiduciary to you or your family.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Jay Hinrichs. Totally cool with him putting his 1/8 interest up for sale with equitable title. However, when you put others interest up for sale, then you essentially are depriving them of one of their legal rights as owner of the right to transfer and when buy the property without disclosing that information, then the licensed firm is not dealing with good faith or fair dealing.

    In our state, when you gain others property by not allowing them to acquire information that would affect judgement of a transaction...that is theft by deception.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Russell Brazil so you think it ok for a licensed real estate firm to put property up for sale without consent of the owners? I have gone through the state real estate regulations and it says that is improper conduct.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Jay Hinrichs. Totally cool with him putting his 1/8 interest up for sale with equitable title. However, when you put others interest up for sale, then you essentially are depriving them of one of their legal rights as owner of the right to transfer and when buy the property without disclosing that information, then the licensed firm is not dealing with good faith or fair dealing.

    In our state, when you gain others property by not allowing them to acquire information that would affect judgement of a transaction...that is theft by deception.

    I am not defending the folks your talking about.  like I said I would be seeking answers as well.. in our area this can be called unconscionable profit.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Jay Hinrichs this firms is also part of the national Association of realtors...I am wondering if a complaint with them will do anything. I have heard they protect their own.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Jay Hinrichs this firms is also part of the national Association of realtors...I am wondering if a complaint with them will do anything. I have heard they protect their own.

    Nar is not where you go with this.. this to me if you have a case is a civil matter with a civil suite being filed.. I mean there is big money here.. you guys got 2 mil.. you can afford decent legal council on this.  One thing is certain you not going to solve it on BP and all of us just giving our opinions which are worth what your paying for them  ZERO

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    By all means talk to an attorney but from the facts you recite I do not see that the firm owed you a duty of any kind as a holder of a 1/8 interest.   It was free to look out after its own interests.  The fact that it was in talks to sell usually means nothing.  If the firm could not convince the other owners to sell, it might have liability as to the prospective buyer when it failed to transfer clear title but not the other owners.  Again, the key is identifying the legal duty that was owed to the holders of the other 7/8 interests.  If state law supplies such a duty you may have a case.  If not, you will be 2 wasting a lot of money pursuing this.  

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Jay Hinrichs. We have five years to file suit before statute of limitations runs out. So my goal is to have this guy just pay us to withdraw my complaint. He is building a $40 million hotel and got a sweet deal from the city. I doubt he wants this information to surface.

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    The key here is that they are acting as a principal and not as an agent when you negotiated the sale.  

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Jay Hinrichs. We have five years to file suit before statute of limitations runs out. So my goal is to have this guy just pay us to withdraw my complaint. He is building a $40 million hotel and got a sweet deal from the city. I doubt he wants this information to surface.

    my thought is that wont work.. because there may be NO basis to your complaint to a regulator.. they don't take on all cases in fact they take on very few..  but your call.. 

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Darius Ogloza but when they put our interest up for sale, they were performing real estate brokerage even though there was no listing agreement and then were involved in self dealing when they bought from us.

  • Investor · Marin County California · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y

    Maybe.  Because they owned 1/8 of the property (I am wrong about this?), it is unclear to me that they were doing anything other than negotiating a possible sale of the property as an owner (contingent on their ability to persuade the entire ownership to sell their interests).  It would of course be different if the firm purported to sell the property without the knowledge of the 7/8 ownership group.  There, you have fraud.  There are no damages available for attempted fraud and that is all you have unless the firm had a duty to inform you and the other owners about its negotiations/deal with th wchool district.  In many states, on these facts, no duty to do so exists.  I cannot speak for kentucky.  Again, getting an opinion from Kentucky counsel is absolutely critical here.  My gut tells me this issue of duty will surface in those discussions.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Darius Ogloza by offering the property without owning it and answering on the disclosure that there were no title issues, I would count that as a fraudulent representation. The fact that they didn’t have full title would be an encumbrance.

  • Specialist · Paradise Valley, AZ · Member since 2018 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Jay Hinrichs. We have five years to file suit before statute of limitations runs out. So my goal is to have this guy just pay us to withdraw my complaint. He is building a $40 million hotel and got a sweet deal from the city. I doubt he wants this information to surface.

     Seems to me that if the guy was involved in crafting the RFP (with inside knowledge) and then profited from the transaction, that would be a conflict of interest. Did I miss something? I'm assuming it is a government school and not a private school.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Mike M. It certainly felt like this was not an arms length transaction. One emails shows him suggesting an appraiser and the RFP admin responding three hours later that the appraiser has a picture in hand. At the very least even if there is no fiduciary duty, as a licensed brokerage they have the duty of fair dealing and good faith to all.

  • Investor · Elizabethtown, KY · Member since 2016 · 16 posts · 19 votes
    6y

    John,

    As an attorney who handles real estate litigation you are maybe leaving out some information as to who can actually act in this situation.  You haven't indicated you were an actual owner that transferred any ownership interest.  You talk about "we" but advise your parents are still alive and reference ownership at the cousin level.  Were your parents the actual owners of whatever interest by deed or intestacy?  Did you have an ownership interest by deed or intestacy?  If not, I know you may be trying to help and keep them out of it, but only the owners can act and this would include hiring an attorney, seeking involvement for an investigation, etc.  It is true state agencies can act on information from those without an interest but they really like it when those with an interest make the complaint.  If you do have an ownership interest and received proceeds from the sale, like Jay says, you aren't going to get anywhere on here.  Use some of that money to hire a real estate attorney who can review the entire situation and offer direct legal advise on what avenues to best take to obtain the desired outcome.  I can tell you that people in the real estate business rarely care about the threat of playing the "information will be made public" card.

  • Accountant · KY (kentucky) · Member since 2019 · 17 posts · 0 votes
    6y

    @Larry Ashlock I have a remainder interest in the property. The real estate commission has already said that I have standing to bring forth a complaint.

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