Contractor using green board for shower
Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes
My contractor's crew began tiling the bath/shower surround today. It was such a mess I pulled it all off before the mortar could dry resolving to at least get it properly started myself. In researching tiling, I learned that it is considered bad practice to use green board for shower and tub tiling Green board is what my contractor used. Now that it's all up, I don't want to have a confrontation about ripping it down and starting again, and I'm unwilling to do it myself.
Three questions: One, Is green board even allowed for shower/tub surrounds in the Philadelphia Building Code? Many municipalities have forbidden it.
Two, is there anything I can do to make the green board work, such as applying Redguard? I've seen a lot of people recommend Kerdi, but I don't have the budget for that.
Three, is this an error so bad that I should not work with this contractor on future projects?
It seems to me that you know the right answer, but will refuse to accept it. everyone has told you the answer to exactly what you asked of them. You've even reiterated the answer
"As to those who've said there's nothing wrong with green board, every how-to regarding tile placement recommends against it. One online tile guru says it's grounds for firing your contractor. There is a growing list of municipalities that forbid its use, but I am unable to find out if Philly is one of them. The argument is that it is water resistant, not waterproof and that a tile job done with it will have a lifespan of five years or less. It is also, apparently, a mold magnet. Of course there are exceptions, but these facts are often accompanied by horror stories and pictures of green board tiling projects gone wrong."
Then you started to throw a tantrum on here when no one came up with the magical solution you think is out there "Did no one see where I said I can't redo the job? I need a green board workaround stat."
Do yourself a favor and get out of your own way. You've read about this green board, people on BP have told you what to do, but yet you still want a different magical solution. For whatever reason, your head is up your rear end. Perhaps its because your over-budget on this project? You mention not having the means to rip it down and replace it with $15/sheet cement board. Why do a project if you can't have a buffer built in? That's just crazy.
You go ahead and rip down someone elses work? If I was the contractor, I would fire YOU! You think you'll get it started better than him? Then do the damn job yourself!! There is no magical solution. The facts are the facts and now you have to decide what to do with those facts.
@Mike Girard Google is your friend. Here's my search on building code ..
and what is building code in Philly ...
Philly code search lead me to this
BTW, I doubt your contractor would mind much about replacing the green board if you pay for materials. Call you local tile supplier (not Home Depot or like) and get a tile installation referral. If the contractor got this part wrong, I'll bet you $20 the tile job will not go well since your contractor didn't know the proper backer.
A good tiler will very diligently make sure the tile surface is smooth, plumb, etc. Since the surface was wrong in the first place, that's probably indicative of other significant issues. Just guessing.
Best of luck!
Rick
Is the contractor a relative or something? Not sure I get why you don't want to have a chat with them. Whenever you get a bid, get as detailed a bid as you can right down to specs on materials. It isn't always possible...some of the best 1 or 2-man contractors barely put anything in writing and they do great work. It's winter time up north and I bet there are plenty of skilled workers to jump on your tiling job and do it right for you.
Network with some others working in Philly...other investors and see who they might recommend. I did try to explain to you why it's a bad idea to use greenboard. We redo a lot of 80s bath in the suburbs of atlanta and most of them with greenboard are molded throughout. If you tile it out the way you are headed just periodically recaulk the corners and edges...most tilers will grout these locations and they end up cracking with a little time.
The RIGHT thing to do is change it out because that's what is best practices right now. Otherwise, you're sticking the new buyer with a likely problem down the road (which is a dick move) or if you're gonna hold onto it, setting yourself up for future unexpected expenses.
That's a really great way of putting it. I can understand why people are mystified by my approach. I'm becoming frustratingly non-confrontatonal generally and since this is a new area for me, the boundaries aren't exactly clear. We also had an unpleasant skirmish at the beginning I'm overcompensating to keep peace.
The absolute best remedy, I think, is to ask him to do it over and pay for the extra materials. The right thing to do as you say.
@Mike Girard Google is your friend. Here's my search on building code ..
and what is building code in Philly ...
Of course I used Google, which is why I know about the problems with green board in the first place and that cement backer board is becoming standard practice. I also found the Philly code, and if you can find anything in there that clearly states what material is supposed to be used for tile backing, I give you an unlimited pass to "Let Me Google That For You" til the cows come home, but not before.
I ratify your suggestion to offer to pay for the materials and have it redone.
These are really awesome tips. I feel like I've taken a week's course in working with contractors *and* tiling.
Getting the specs in writing is a great suggestion. Unfortunately until this happened, I didn't know what the specs should be and I expected a licensed contractor to know. It seems to me that green board has been discussed enough that any good licensed contractor will know about it, so it seems reasonable grounds to give him the heave-ho after this job finishes. However, it doesn't seem that most investors in Philly have a contractor they like enough to recommend, and all the ones who bid were scary in one way or another. I could go out of the frying pan and into the fire by switching.
@Mike Girard Google is your friend. Here's my search on building code ..
and what is building code in Philly ...
Apologies for misreading this. To be good at Googling, one has to know the turf in which one is Googling, which I clearly don't. The two things you provided do, in fact, answer the question about Philly. I had read varying accounts of what the IBC said about green board, and also had not found the useful info you did about Philly's use of the IBC. Really helpful. You now have a lifetime pass to "Let me Google that for you" in my direction.
Now if only I could understand what it all says. I get that I should use cement board. A little confused on the waterproof membrane bit. Seems like overkill considering that cement board is waterproof already. If we just swap out the green board cement backer board, have we done enough? This is a shower, after all, not a steamroom.
Here are some answers to your membrane question ...
http://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php...
Seems Red Guard is not proven for green board and Kerdi is.
Greenboard is an acceptable substrate in a shower "ONLY" if it is Waterproofed correctly. Schluter Kerdi is your workaround for the greenboard. You say you cant afford Kerdi? Can you afford to replace the entire shower in a few years or less instead?
It's clear that I have to have the contractor either put kerdi over what he's got, or replace it with cement board. Since a membrane is recommended for both, leaving the green board up and using kerdi seems the most practical solution.
I wish I got this many useful, knowledgable answers for all my other questions. This is BP at its finest.
Curious what all the up-to-date contractors think of giving this guy the heave-ho based on this gap in knowledge?
...
I wish I got this many useful, knowledgable answers for all my other questions. This is BP at its finest.
Sorry, but that comment is offensive and uncalled for with respect to those who posted on those other questions. Keep in mind that many people contribute here on BP strictly as a goodwill gesture - even if you don't appreciate the input, when you ask for input here on a public forum you will get all sorts of commentary, good and bad, wanted and unwanted ...
I hear a lot about it being the contractors fault ,or incompentence . But the description of work and materials should be listed in detail in the contract . Now I dont know Philly bldg codes , but where I live green board is acceptable by code , yes cement board is better . But unless stated otherwise in the contract , the customer gets green board . Contractors dont give upgrades out of their pocket at no charge or with out a change order . Thats not how to make a profit . If you get a price for a new roof , and when the contractor is done , you find out he used 20 year shingles , when you assumed you were getting 30 year shingles . Unless its written on the signed contract , you will get the bare minimum . Depending on the job , my contracts are a minimum of 5 pages and have been as many as 40 pages .
Geez, all you have to do is say, "I'm sorry that I didn't specify this in the beginning, but I want to use cement board for the surround. Obviously I will pay for the material costs to replace the green board. My bad. Thanks."
Just take the high road with him if you want to keep using him, and move on with your life.
You don't have to read the guy the riot act- you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Geez, all you have to do is say, "I'm sorry that I didn't specify this in the beginning, but I want to use cement board for the surround. Obviously I will pay for the material costs to replace the green board. My bad. Thanks."
Just take the high road with him if you want to keep using him, and move on with your life.
You don't have to read the guy the riot act- you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Dude, you are so behind in this conversation. But thanks for helping us more than reach the gratuitously condescending guy quotient. To those reading: No more needed, thanks!
As to your advice, I am happy to pay extra to keep peace, but it really isn't obviously "my bad" if the code stipulates cement board or green board with a membrane. It seems to me that since Philly uses the International standard and that standard calls for a membrane, he should have done the membrane without me asking or paying, by virtue of being a licensed contractor, and correct his error now without other incentives.
Geez, all you have to do is say, "I'm sorry that I didn't specify this in the beginning, but I want to use cement board for the surround. Obviously I will pay for the material costs to replace the green board. My bad. Thanks."
Just take the high road with him if you want to keep using him, and move on with your life.
You don't have to read the guy the riot act- you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Dude, you are so behind in this conversation. But thanks for helping us more than reach the gratuitously condescending guy quotient. To those reading: No more needed, thanks!
Are you always this much of a jerk? I don't understand why you have to act that way towards people. maybe that's why you have a sub-par contractor and no one wants to respond to your other posts... Making enemies on a forum where it could decide your future really isn't a good idea. you never know where you'll find your next opportunity!
Geez, all you have to do is say, "I'm sorry that I didn't specify this in the beginning, but I want to use cement board for the surround. Obviously I will pay for the material costs to replace the green board. My bad. Thanks."
Just take the high road with him if you want to keep using him, and move on with your life.
You don't have to read the guy the riot act- you catch more flies with honey than vinegar.
Dude, you are so behind in this conversation. But thanks for helping us more than reach the gratuitously condescending guy quotient. To those reading: No more needed, thanks!
Are you always this much of a jerk? I don't understand why you have to act that way towards people. maybe that's why you have a sub-par contractor and no one wants to respond to your other posts... Making enemies on a forum where it could decide your future really isn't a good idea. you never know where you'll find your next opportunity!
You're funny. Perhaps you should reread the litany of insults you introduced yourself with and the ones you're spewing now. There is no cause to give advice here in any form but straight up, as a peer. When it comes some other way, I'll respond accordingly.
@Mike Girard - if you do not install the tile correctly and you do not maintain the tile (i.e. caulking, sealing, etc), it is going to fail. The difference is that the concrete board will not fail as easy because of what it is made of. The concrete board will allow leakage just like the green board but you will not have to replace it.
Secondly, concrete board costs about double than the greenboard. It not the most costly part of the job though. The finish work is.
Good luck.
No! You are not suppose to use grrenboard on areas with direct moisture. For all the people who said that it's ok to use..... Get a new profession. Horrible!
Hello there :). Doing the install the right way is very expensive. There are all kinds of foam / cement boards. I have been doing tile work for over 30 years. Check out my Facebook photos. Anyways, I say go for it! Get you a paintable waterproof and coat rhe **** out of it. Mesh tape all the seams. If this is a tub surround you will be fine. If it’s a full walk on shower with a tiled pan let me know. Haha
Drywall turns to mush when it gets wet. Water always finds a way. Use cement board or GoBoard.