Contractor using green board for shower
Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes
Contractor using green board for shower
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Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes
10yIt seems to me that you know the right answer, but will refuse to accept it. everyone has told you the answer to exactly what you asked of them. You've even reiterated the answer
"As to those who've said there's nothing wrong with green board, every how-to regarding tile placement recommends against it. One online tile guru says it's grounds for firing your contractor. There is a growing list of municipalities that forbid its use, but I am unable to find out if Philly is one of them. The argument is that it is water resistant, not waterproof and that a tile job done with it will have a lifespan of five years or less. It is also, apparently, a mold magnet. Of course there are exceptions, but these facts are often accompanied by horror stories and pictures of green board tiling projects gone wrong."
Then you started to throw a tantrum on here when no one came up with the magical solution you think is out there "Did no one see where I said I can't redo the job? I need a green board workaround stat."
Do yourself a favor and get out of your own way. You've read about this green board, people on BP have told you what to do, but yet you still want a different magical solution. For whatever reason, your head is up your rear end. Perhaps its because your over-budget on this project? You mention not having the means to rip it down and replace it with $15/sheet cement board. Why do a project if you can't have a buffer built in? That's just crazy.
You go ahead and rip down someone elses work? If I was the contractor, I would fire YOU! You think you'll get it started better than him? Then do the damn job yourself!! There is no magical solution. The facts are the facts and now you have to decide what to do with those facts.
47 Replies
- Rock Star Extraordinaire · Northeast, TN · Member since 2015 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes10y
I've seen it used. I personally only use cement board for tub & shower backer, but theoretically it probably wouldn't hurt anything. Want proof? I remodeled the master bath shower in my house about 2 years ago that was a whirlpool tub/tiled surround. When I pulled the tile down the backer was regular 5/8" sheetrock, painted. There was no rot or deterioration in any of the sheet rock despite almost 20 years of showers.
Nevertheless, cement board is a safer route to go in my opinion. I do the following: plastic sheeting over studs; 30lb felt over that; cement board over that (bottom doesn't touch shower pan or tub by about 1/4" or so); thinset or mastic depending on the tile; caulk all seams. No rot in any of the stuff I've ever done. I know a lot of guys don't like cement board because it has a little more tendency to pop screws. I just make sure they're all seated slightly below surface before I start tiling.
Skyline Properties - Developer · Austin, TX · Member since 2014 · 266 posts · 110 votes10y
Use the TCA Handbook for proper tile installation:
http://apps.laticrete.com/ag2.0/reference/TCA2003-2004.pdf
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
"rip it down"
Like I said, I don't have the means to do that, and there is only so much of my contractor's job I'm willing to do. Getting the tiles properly started is about my limit.
As to those who've said there's nothing wrong with green board, every how-to regarding tile placement recommends against it. One online tile guru says it's grounds for firing your contractor. There is a growing list of municipalities that forbid its use, but I am unable to find out if Philly is one of them. The argument is that it is water resistant, not waterproof and that a tile job done with it will have a lifespan of five years or less. It is also, apparently, a mold magnet. Of course there are exceptions, but these facts are often accompanied by horror stories and pictures of green board tiling projects gone wrong.
The main question I'm asking here is what do I do now that the green board is up and I can't take it down. Will Redguard afford any protection?
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
"Use the TCA Handbook for proper tile installation:"
Did no one see where I said I can't redo the job? I need a green board workaround stat.
- Rental Property Investor · Indianapolis, IN · Member since 2014 · 354 posts · 167 votes10y
@Mike Girard - green board works. There is nothing wrong with it. There are just newer techniques and materials, like cement board, that have proven to be better. I have used it for over 30 years and it does work. It is a matter of preference and what your local contactors use. You also need to make sure you match the local building code requirements.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
"I have used it for over 30 years and it does work."
Do the jobs last? The conventional wisdom at the moment suggests it's fine if you redo your bathroom every five years anyway but dicey otherwise.
Also, since I'm nervous about it, will Redgard afford any extra protection? Are there any other easy affordable measures I can take to offset the documented deficiencies that have set building codes in many cities against it?
- Investor · Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 807 posts · 475 votes10yMy opinion is that only cement board should be used. Green board would be the fallback option if cement board wasn't available but obviously that's not the case. Cement board actually becomes stronger when it gets wet so it's by far superior. The cement board is only around $15 a sheet so it's not as if it's a budget issue. I can only assume that either- 1. The contractor is an ammeter and doesn't know what he's doing. 2. He had green board left over from another job and decided to use it. Either way, I would dismiss this contractor and find someone who is qualified.
- Contractor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes10y
Originally posted by @Mike Girard:
My contractor's crew began tiling the bath/shower surround today. It was such a mess I pulled it all off before the mortar could dry resolving to at least get it properly started myself. In researching tiling, I learned that it is considered bad practice to use green board for shower and tub tiling Green board is what my contractor used. Now that it's all up, I don't want to have a confrontation about ripping it down and starting again, and I'm unwilling to do it myself.
Three questions: One, Is green board even allowed for shower/tub surrounds in the Philadelphia Building Code? Many municipalities have forbidden it.
Two, is there anything I can do to make the green board work, such as applying Redguard? I've seen a lot of people recommend Kerdi, but I don't have the budget for that.
Three, is this an error so bad that I should not work with this contractor on future projects?
You know, if you did your contract right, all you have to do is prove that he installed it the wrong way, or not up to code, terminate him and hire another one, his bond company should cover the difference between your new contractor and himself. Technically, he can ask for leniency for him to do his work. Tell him his work is not acceptable to you, that he will have to re-do them or you will go dor his contractor's bond. By ripping off their work, you have created a grey area now, you don't have any evidence that will prove that they have a faulty install.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
Originally posted by @Manolo D.:
I am unlikely to take the kind of measures you're suggesting, but I don't see how ripping down the first few tiles they put up changes anything, when the issue is the green board.
Since you're a contractor Manolo, I'd like to hear your thoughts on green board and contractors that still use it. I would also like to know what you think of using Redguard. Will it help at all?
- Rockford, IL · Member since 2015 · 343 posts · 95 votes10yI personally use cement board and red guard on all my tub and shower I am going to tile. My biggest concern would be moisture getting behind tile and creating a mold issue. I suppose if you red guard the green board that may help. I just looked up schulter systems. They have a membrane called kerdi that looks like u can put over any type of board. Google it and it came up on a you tube video. Hope this helps https://youtu.be/CYf1jHbER4o Here's the YouTube link hopefully you can click on it
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2013 · 177 posts · 80 votes10y
It seems to me that you know the right answer, but will refuse to accept it. everyone has told you the answer to exactly what you asked of them. You've even reiterated the answer
"As to those who've said there's nothing wrong with green board, every how-to regarding tile placement recommends against it. One online tile guru says it's grounds for firing your contractor. There is a growing list of municipalities that forbid its use, but I am unable to find out if Philly is one of them. The argument is that it is water resistant, not waterproof and that a tile job done with it will have a lifespan of five years or less. It is also, apparently, a mold magnet. Of course there are exceptions, but these facts are often accompanied by horror stories and pictures of green board tiling projects gone wrong."
Then you started to throw a tantrum on here when no one came up with the magical solution you think is out there "Did no one see where I said I can't redo the job? I need a green board workaround stat."
Do yourself a favor and get out of your own way. You've read about this green board, people on BP have told you what to do, but yet you still want a different magical solution. For whatever reason, your head is up your rear end. Perhaps its because your over-budget on this project? You mention not having the means to rip it down and replace it with $15/sheet cement board. Why do a project if you can't have a buffer built in? That's just crazy.
You go ahead and rip down someone elses work? If I was the contractor, I would fire YOU! You think you'll get it started better than him? Then do the damn job yourself!! There is no magical solution. The facts are the facts and now you have to decide what to do with those facts.
- Contractor · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 651 posts · 510 votes10y
@Mike Girard MR drywall ("moisture resistant-green board) is absolutely not suitable for active wet locations and topical waterproofing membranes, such as Redguard, will not adhere properly to drywall. Tear it down and start over using cementious backer board.
Based on this, I would not use this contractor for any other work. If you can't afford the $50.00 cost to make it right, than you have an even bigger problem.
- Urbana, IL · Member since 2012 · 1k+ posts · 425 votes10y
I gotta say that I'm on the @Account Closed team a bit. If you're concerned that redoing the backing behind tile for a bath tub surround is too expensive I think you've got a bigger concern. Now, since you've been hit with that already I will move on.
I did find this quote under a basic google search when I looked up green board
"NOTE: Green board is water resistant – it is not water-proof. Green board is highly efficient in bathrooms and kitchens where moisture is frequently in the air, but it is not the drywall that should be set behind tile in your shower surround or any other areas where it can come in direct contact with water."
I would highly suggest you spend the money on the shulter system. When installed correctly it is water tight and you can also market it as one of the newest water proofing materials you can use currently. We've used it in a rehab and the tiler said its the best thing to use currently. From what I remember it didn't matter what type of material you had it adhere to because when done properly its good to go; its just a matter of doing it properly.
As for the contractor you should apologize for pulling his work down (that enough to piss any craftman off even if its wrong) and you need to explain what you need. If he doesn't do it then he's out. Its not his call, unless its a code issue you are wanting to circumvent, to not do what you request.
Keep in mind, if you move past the dollar signs and move on with the right attitude you'll get the project done sooner.
- Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes10y
Unless your specs called for cement board , the contractor used normal building practices . Yes cement board is better , much better . BUT green board is acceptable . Unless you paid for cement board the contractor did his job . If you want cement board , pay the contractor to remove and re do the work . Contracting is a for profit business you dont do upgrades for the customer unless you get paid for it .
- Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes10y
Having done a number of shower stall tile installs I am amazed that anyone would expect the paper coating on green board would be sufficient to absorb the thin-set to ensure the adequate adherence of tile to a vertical surfaces vs that of cement board. I prefer Granite and Marble mortar as it has from my experience exhibited exceptional bonding. The best example was a 2x1ft wall tile in a shower stall I did a year ago. It bonded so well it literally required breaking a tile out piece by piece to correct an alignment error that a helper caused by removing the support line the night before.
The failed tiled shower stalls we have had to redo in rehab homes were predominantly either backed by uncoated drywall or the green board in question.
- Real Estate Investor · atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 456 posts · 237 votes10y
You absolutely don't install greenboard in wet areas anymore....PERIOD. The problems with most of us contractors is that we just do what our Dads taught us or what we learned years ago....most of us are never looking to learn new techniques. The issue with greenboard is two-fold..grout cracks over time, as does caulk and water will gradually get behind it. Using redguard over it will help with water from the shower side but I'd rip it out and redo it. As the others have said, if that cost breaks the bank, you're in much deeper trouble. Not sure where this job is but I thought pretty much everything in NY had to be permitted...which it seems like no permit here.
2nd issue is one we usually overlook....it's the condensation factor of air conditioned space abutting outside walls. Even using Redguard or a similar product, you run a pretty good chance of mold on the exterior facing face of the greenboard. When 75 degree air hits 100 degree air, moisture is pulled out of the air and condensates on the surfaces....wood/paper & drywall then become a food source for mold. Any moisture getting behind or condensation can also gradually rot the framing. We see a ton of this in Atlanta.....in most older homes that work on intown actually.
There's lots of good and bad advice on BP, you just have to sort out what works for you. Many investors make the mistake of going with the cheapest contractor to boost profit....especially true on flips. If it's a long term rental for you, you want to do it right the first time. If you're flipping it becomes a question of ethics...all of those short-cuts add up to big repairs bills for a new buyer. We just had a $400k housing in decatur area that was a total rebuild/redo 1.5 years ago...but lots of short cuts. They took a 2/1 and made it a 4/2. Builder didn't flash the valley or the inside corner where old house met new...resulting in rotted subfloor/framing, sheathing & oak flooring.....plus mold. A little extra time and $50 in materials would have saved several thousand. Sadly, this is just one of many issues with this home. Happy Investing!
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 101 posts · 28 votes10y
Just rip out the green board and replace it if you ask me. It only takes 15 minutes and what have you lost, $50 maybe.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
Originally posted by @Mark Redmann:
It seems to me that you know the right answer, but will refuse to accept it. everyone has told you the answer to exactly what you asked of them. You've even reiterated the answer
Then you started to throw a tantrum on here
Do yourself a favor and get out of your own way. . .For whatever reason, your head is up your rear end. Perhaps its because your over-budget on this project? You mention not having the means to rip it down and replace it with $15/sheet cement board. Why do a project if you can't have a buffer built in? That's just crazy.
You go ahead and rip down someone elses work? If I was the contractor, I would fire YOU!
And a happy thanksgiving to you too, Mark!
Noting that people are not responding to the question I asked -- something that happens on here constantly -- is not throwing a tantrum. You, however, seem to be in the midst of one.
People who are telling me to rip it all down and start from scratch are not answering the question, which is, what do I do now since ripping down the green board isn't an option. People who have responded to that by offering suggestions like Kerdi or just living with it because green board isn't bad are answering the question. People who tell me to consult a 100-page standards guide and start from scratch, aren't.
I was using "means" in the broad sense. That is, not all about money. I have enough to buy it. What I lack are knowhow to do cement board, something to haul it in and the willingness to do that much of a job I'm paying someone else to do. If green board really won't just do -- a statement that would also answer my question -- I will have to confront the contractor, which is what I'm trying to avoid.
As for tearing down his work, I guess that's a glass half-full and half-empty question. The job done so far was suggestive of knowing absolutely nothing about tiling. Somone was going to have to tear it down. whether it was me or them, and I did it before the mortar dried to save everyone trouble. That this isn't obvious enough to you to discourage offering an overwrought, really rather ridiculous litany of insults really tells me all I need to really know about you, and you are most welcome to acquit yourself and leave me with my head up my **s. I would, by the way, be very grateful if the contractor fired me. It would save a lot of this headache. He's welcome to go.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
Thanks for this very helpful answer which unfortunately corresponds to a lot of what I've read. The $50.00 isn't what's getting in the way, since I didn't mean *financial* means. I guess I should have made that more clear.
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
Originally posted by @Matthew Paul:
Unless your specs called for cement board , the contractor used normal building practices.
Normal perhaps - though I doubt that it exceeds cement board in use -- but acceptable is another question. As I mentioned, many municipalities forbid its use as tile backing for showers. In those municipalities, the onus is by no means on the customer to stipulate it in the contract, which is why I asked if anyone knew what the status is in Philadelphia. It's very hard to find information about our code online it seems.
- Investor · Coppell, TX · Member since 2008 · 2k+ posts · 646 votes10y
Originally posted by @Mike Girard:
My contractor's crew began tiling the bath/shower surround today. It was such a mess I pulled it all off before the mortar could dry resolving to at least get it properly started myself. In researching tiling, I learned that it is considered bad practice to use green board for shower and tub tiling Green board is what my contractor used. Now that it's all up, I don't want to have a confrontation about ripping it down and starting again, and I'm unwilling to do it myself.
Three questions: One, Is green board even allowed for shower/tub surrounds in the Philadelphia Building Code? Many municipalities have forbidden it.
Two, is there anything I can do to make the green board work, such as applying Redguard? I've seen a lot of people recommend Kerdi, but I don't have the budget for that.
Three, is this an error so bad that I should not work with this contractor on future projects?
Hello! Backer board made with water resistant material is the best but green board should be
- Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 81 posts · 7 votes10y
Thanks, everyone for being so generous with your knowhow and experience! Very helpful discussion (mostly).
I'm forced to conclude my two choices under the circumstances are to accept the green wall or give my contractor a talking to. I'm disinclined to fire him for this. The other work seems fine and finishing a half-done job would be simpler. I won't, however, use him for anything but the bathroom and bedroom I contracted with him for. This is my first time hiring a contractor so put it down to growing pains. I wish we all got a free trial run at this before we started.
By the way, if there's anyone reading this in Philly who can replace the green board by end of day Friday, PM me.
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