Bridgeport, CT · Member since 2017 · 116 posts · 19 votes
Dear BP Members,
I am renovating my house with a completed demo, drywall on the walls and ceilings, and electrical wiring for the whole floor. The problem is that the electrician does not want to wait until the sheet rock up 2-3 weeks later then come back to finish the wires and plugs. He doesn't want to wait that long to get his final payment. He said that he will put the wires and plugs in and tape it then contractor can put the sheet rock up, later contractor can just put the face plate over. My contractor said no way. It will make his job 10 times harder. He said that the correct way is to put the sheet rock up first, then electrician return to put the wires and plugs in. He said that I need to tell electrician "my contractor needs to have his rodozip in" - I am confused about the process. What is the correct way to do this? My electrician is such a pain and he doesn't want to wait that long to get paid. Isn't that necessary if that is the right process to get job done? What should I say to the electrician? Please advise. Thank you!
I don't know how it is in other parts of the country but I have never seen switches and receptacles installed before Sheetrock and I have been in hundreds of new construction houses. Tell the electrician that you will pay half upon completion of rough in and the remainder upon the completion passing inspection. Be firm.
Electrical inspection comes later ... the rough-in inspection is separate ... around here, at least.
I think it is time you stop pretending that you know what you are talking about, you don't!
There are not two electrical inspections, there is the rough electrical inspection and then the finish electrical is looked at at final inspection. For rough inspection, the wires must be in and the boxes made up, period.
My house was built in Joliet, not Lemont. I can only tell you what I saw.
That was 13 years ago, also. the rules may have changed.
What a joke, what you "saw" 13 years ago has nothing to do with what is correct or to proper code or standard electrical install practices across the country. Now you back peddle because you have been wrong and we're called on it.
In addition, you have now given everyone on BP evidence that you are a phony and a liar. Your posted photo of your supposed house 13 years ago is a fraud.
BP Nation: This poster is nothing more than a marketer and affiliate for a very expensive real estate mentoring program who passes himself off as an investor. It is clear by this thread that he is not. Please take his posts with a gain of salt and know that anybadgice regarding construction or Nvestmnets may likely not be accurate.
... in YOUR opinion.
The photo is an original taken by me in the house being built for me and my then wife in Joliet, IL. See the "website" link in my response to another respondent. I'm actually a bit flattered that my non-professional pix are being used on other websites.
Sorry to burst your bubble. At the risk of sounding like tRump, "WRONG!!!"
You need to calm down, Will - you're embarrassing yourself. This is behavior unbecoming a moderator. It seems that, like "John Smith", you also have an axe to grind. Please take it elsewhere.
Fine, the photo is an original, but that's not the main point. The point is, and by your own admission, you took a photo or multiple photos, read into the order and process of the electrical work which clearly is a misinterpretation on your part, and then posted advice on an issue that you really have very little to no experience with from an experience 13 yeas ago which you did not disclose initially, only after you were called out.
The problem with that is, some newbie can read your post, take what you say as fact, and then go do things wrong not realizing you are a rookie yourself. Based on your profile, you have done less than 5 deals in your career and you are in your 60's. I have done hundreds of deals, I have built homes and small multi family apartments from ground up, and the list goes on. Several others in this thread have similar resumes yet you pass yourself off as a knowledgeable investor providing poor advice. That is the only axe I have to grind in this thread and it is quite clear to everyone but you that the embarrassment is on your end, not mine,
I have never seen electrical rough inspection without wiring in place after sheetrock is up. If it's NMb cable they need to make sure the holes are not too close to the stud face, and nail protectors are in place, cables are secured to the framing every X inches, and the proper connectors are used. If it's conduits whether EMT or rigid or PVC the rough inspection involves proper conduit sizing and box fill and max capacity. How would the inspection know whether the conduits or boxes are sized correctly if there is no pre-knowledge of what wiring is going in there? One can have dedicated ground even with EMT conduits for certain devices, and many older circuits can have MWBC where neutral conductors are shared on opposite leg circuits, so it's impossible to pass or fail an inspection with unoccupied conduits and boxes only.
The OP seems to be doing the job of the GC is she is actually dealing with the logistics of the different trades. If the electrician is installing everything before the sheetrock are hung, sanded and painted, I would ask the GC to remove them all so that the sheetrock can be installed properly. You said "blue boxes" so it's plastic junction boxes and they are typically installed say 1/2" proud of the stud face, the rotozip would need to hit the OUTSIDE of the blue box and go all the way around. The receptacles or switches being there would have "ears" that interfere with the rotozip. I would want the hole to be cut neat and snug, and not overcut or worse pounded into place and rely on someone to come around and patch the mess.
I have never seen electrical rough inspection without wiring in place after sheetrock is up. If it's NMb cable they need to make sure the holes are not too close to the stud face, and nail protectors are in place, cables are secured to the framing every X inches, and the proper connectors are used. If it's conduits whether EMT or rigid or PVC the rough inspection involves proper conduit sizing and box fill and max capacity. How would the inspection know whether the conduits or boxes are sized correctly if there is no pre-knowledge of what wiring is going in there? One can have dedicated ground even with EMT conduits for certain devices, and many older circuits can have MWBC where neutral conductors are shared on opposite leg circuits, so it's impossible to pass or fail an inspection with unoccupied conduits and boxes only.
It certainly did and often happens when someone pretending to have experience gets proved wrong but still wants to argue their position to save face. Pretty much everybody here knows and agrees that a rough electrical inspection anywhere in the US needs to have wires ran.
@Peace Lily Sounds like you are having a multitude of issues on the project. This is true of most projects. How these issues are managed is key. Sounds like you're somewhat behind schedule and you subs want to get paid. As others have stated before, it's your GC's responsibility to manage his subs. The GC may be asking you for money to pay his guy because he doesn't want to come out of his own pocket for fear of not being paid at the end of the job. As long as the contract dollar figures are not changing at all, I don't see a reason why you can't pay him up to 90% completion if his work is 90% complete. It's up to the GC to let the electrician install his devices before drywall on his job. Not the way installs are typically done but it sounds like you're having schedule / relationship issues and the electrician wants to be paid and off your job ASAP. He pulled permits on his license and if he's comfortable doing the install that way, that's fine. Means and methods of construction are up to the electrician and GC to decide on whats the best path forward. This isn't a decision you should be involved in necessarily, which falls back on the GC to manage effectively.
At no point should you pay any contractor ahead of the work currently in place for a given month. A contractor gets paid once per month and it is common for the GC to frontload the payment application and it is the responsibility of your architect or you to verify the amount of work in place matches the amount requested for payment. If the electrical sub is asking for payment upfront, that is a red flag.
The process that you originally described is trimout. It sounds like they did the rough in and wanted to do the trimout in one shot making it much more difficult for the GC to finish drywall install.
You need to support your GC by telling the elec sub what to do.
You need to support your GC by telling the elec sub what to do.
A contractor gets paid based on the contract payment terms, it is not necessarily once per month, it can be once per week if that is what was stipulated and agreed to.
As to supporting the GC, we all believe part of the problem here is the GC. The electrical sub was hired by the GC and therefore, it is the GC's responsibility to deal with his sub, not the homeowner. The electrician trying to get paid for rough and finish before drywall is done is the silliest part of all. The GC should be telling him hell no and to do it the right way or this is the last job he gets from him.
Peace Lily
It's amazing what some contractors try and pull. There is a reason that inspectors have rough in inspections and final inspections. The reason is because if you use the correct process, then this is a non-issue.
Process is this:
1. Electrician installs rough wiring and boxes on the studs (no receptacles)
2. Drywall is installed and finished.
3. Paint is completed
4. Electrician comes back to complete his final work (install receptacles and face plates)
Hi All, thanks for all the insights! Just give you all an update. Please bear with me. It is a bit long....
After rough in inspection passed, I was so upset and disappointed about this GC. I paid him all the work he initiated/contracted to the electrician which is 70% of the final. Note that the agreement between GC and I is 1/3 deposit - 1/3 mid way - 1/3 final job complete. Also, no invoice or contract have been signed between us although I have all the proof of payment records. I also have work of scope. Now, I don’t want him neither the electrician to come back and finish the final job.
The electrician said that the GC told him that I didn't pay him(GC). He gave the electrician (who I never met) my phone number. Now, the electrician kept calling me and demanded for more payments and wanted to complete the final job/put spectacles and faceplates. The electrician also mentioned about possible lien against my house.
A bit background info about GC:
Electrician told me that this GC is well known for his bad reputation and lier in Connecticut. Electrician had worked with him and had problems in the past. Unfortunately, I didn't know that until after I worked with This GC. He said that This GC got fired by other home owners in the past. If it was not because This GC kept begging him, he wouldn't take this job.
Also, this GC hired another sub contractor did some jobs on my 1st floor and 2nd floor demo for me. He delayed the timeline for more than 2 months (very unreliable and unresponsive) and did a bad job. I had to pay extra and hired another contractor to fix problems on the 1st floor. Although all of this has caused my emotional and financial burden, I paid him in full on all the work he completed up to date.
Questions:
1. I don't want this Electrician nor him come back to finish the final job. I wanted to hire another reliable Electrician on my own. I already made 70% on ALL work this GC initiated/contracted to this electrician up to date. I am not obliged to have This GC or Electrician continue the final job, am I?
2. Can the electrician put the lien against my house or pull the original permit? He also threatened about removing all the wires he did in my house. I already paid the GC and did what I am supposed to do!
3. To make things simpler, if I let the electrician back to finish the final job and pay him directly( the final payment) and have him sign the waiver. Electrician told me I should do that. Would that be ok? Am I still tied to this GC? This GC seems to disappear, no contact, hide away since he didn’t pay electrician the portion the electrician supposed to get.
This is such a nightmare.
Thank you for your advice in advance!
@Peace Lily Either of them can put a lien on your house and you will then have to defend yourself. I forget if you mentioned it, but how much are we talking is due to the electrician? If its a small amount, putting ego/morals aside, it might be cheaper to pay him IF he places a lien. But certainly call that bluff first, or negotiate a smaller amount before he has to get his atty involved. Or if you trust his work, pay him the balance for him to finish once he does.
The GC likely won't do anything being that he walked with his sub's $. And on that note, be cautious that other subs may remain unpaid and come after you in the future for payment.
Matthew Olszak it is about $1000 for the final payment. How can other subs to come back to me asking for payment? I paid all the jobs the GC initiated/subcontracted. It is so frustrating with a bad GC!
Also, the electrician mentioned he didn’t want to go through the lawyer to sue the GC because it will cost him money. He did threaten to put the lien, or pull the permit and remove all wires in my house so my house won’t be able to rent etc
@Peace Lily At least here in Illinois, it doesn't matter that the GC did the hiring, if a sub wasn't paid who did work on your property or delivered materials to your property, they can put lien on it and then its your responsibility to pay them and go after the GC. Which is why a number of posts back I suggested the lien waiver in the future which lists all subcontractors, amounts due to them, and amounts paid to each to date. And to require waivers from each of the subs.
Now, this talk about taking back "his" wires - I'd change the locks immediately and tell him to shove it unless he said that during an emotional argument. I highly doubt he'll sue over $1k, which he'll have to do to keep his lien (again, at least in Illinois). He already said he doesn't want to involve the attorney, which will likely cost him a $5k-$10k retainer for a construction case. If you trust he'll do quality work, have him finish and pay him all that is due and get a lien waiver, but don't pay until its finished.
Matthew Olszak I only need to pay him the remaining part right? Whatever he didn’t get from the GC, that would be between them? I will definitely have him sign the waiver? Do you have a sample copy? Am I still tied to the GC after I have electrician complete the final job?
I am not sure if the electrician will do a good job. I just wanted this to be over. He said it will take him 3 hrs to finish the spectacles and faceplates. Then he will make an appointment for final inspection.
@Peace Lily If he has a contract for $10k worth of work, and has been paid $4k from the contractor, he is owed $6k once the job is finished, irregardless of what you paid the contractor, unless you have a lien waiver from him. Which is why its best to use him and pay the balance he requests as long as that amount is reasonable and you trust the work he'll do. The GC likely budgeted 30% as his profit, and took that first, which is why is subs are starving. So I highly highly doubt the GC will want to make this a legal battle with you, and you'll have the defense that he didn't complete the project as agreed due to the unpaid subs.
Search "New York Lien Waiver" for examples, or call a local title company and they can provide what they use (for free likely).
In CT (I believe you stated the property is in New Haven) I have always used the CATIC lien waiver form. It is 3-4 pages and have places for signature from each trade. They sign it when paid (I have never had any of my subs balk at this).
Brian Pulaski the GC is licensed. He is such a trouble. Thank you very much for your CT lien waiver form. Question for the future: does GC sign this form or sub contractor? Thanks.
Hi @Peace Lily honestly I have only ever hired subs, so I had each trade sign the form. I imagine that might be the same process with a GC, have each sub sign as they are paid off. Do you have a RE attorney? If so, I would ask him (that is always my go to for anything legal related).
Brian Pulaski yes I asked my RE attorney about this case. He said the simplest way is to have this electrician come back and finish the job and pay him the final payment. He must sign the release form and then he can just GO AWAY!