Mortgage-Backed Bonds, Spurred 2008 Crisis Are in Trouble Again

Mortgage-Backed Bonds, Spurred 2008 Crisis Are in Trouble Again

Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Once again Mortgage Backed Bonds (Securities) are the only thing holding the housing market together. Why is this a big deal?

1. In 2008 the problem was sub-prime mortgages "guaranteed" by MBS, Mortgage Backed Securities and especially the ones that had adjustable rates. No one knew at the time what the level of risk was (ok, the average person didn't know, but the guys on Wall Street raking in the big fees knew). But it turned out that the average guy paid the price when the music stopped. Since that was 10 years ago, I don't expect the average property investor to remember or understand how it all came down. It wasn't pretty.

Enter 2022

2. So now, the Fed has $2.7 trillion in Mortgage Backed Securities, (MBS) which is way, way, too much and need I mention that the Fed was never designed to fullfil that role. It doesn't have a clue what to do now. Inflation or Recession or Housing Crash. (You don't have enough fingers and toes to count that high) If you wanted to count to 2.7 trillion, counting every secound of your 40 hour work week it would take you 375,000 years. Don't try it.

3. What we do know is that Wall Street always gets their fees, the Fed is not your friend, you don't control the housing market, in fact no one does. (Caveat: real estate is local)

The point is: Buckle Up Buttercup, we don't know where the equalibrium will be from or go to but something has to give.

I'm betting housing will drop 10% to 15% over the next year (for various reasons) . The Stock Market will continue to decline and Bitcoin will hit $10,000 from it's high today of $29,068. 


This does not apply to WA, CA, OR, IL, CO, or NC because investors from there continually post that their areas are immune from "corrections" and "burps" in the market place. Must be nice to have such assurances, the same way investors did in 2008.

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Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
4y

@Mike Hern are you going all-in on some inverse ETF’s or shorting some REITS then or what?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Account Closed:

    Once again Mortgage Backed Bonds (Securities) are the only thing holding the housing market together. Why is this a big deal?

    1. In 2008 the problem was sub-prime mortgages "guaranteed" by MBS, Mortgage Backed Securities and especially the ones that had adjustable rates. No one knew at the time what the level of risk was (ok, the average person didn't know, but the guys on Wall Street raking in the big fees knew). But it turned out that the average guy paid the price when the music stopped. Since that was 10 years ago, I don't expect the average property investor to remember or understand how it all came down. It wasn't pretty.

    Enter 2022

    2. So now, the Fed has $2.7 trillion in Mortgage Backed Securities, (MBS) which is way, way, too much and need I mention that the Fed was never designed to fullfil that role. It doesn't have a clue what to do now. Inflation or Recession or Housing Crash. (You don't have enough fingers and toes to count that high) If you wanted to count to 2.7 trillion, counting every secound of your 40 hour work week it would take you 375,000 years. Don't try it.

    3. What we do know is that Wall Street always gets their fees, the Fed is not your friend, you don't control the housing market, in fact no one does. (Caveat: real estate is local)

    The point is: Buckle Up Buttercup, we don't know where the equalibrium will be from or go to but something has to give.

    I'm betting housing will drop 10% to 15% over the next year (for various reasons) . The Stock Market will continue to decline and Bitcoin will hit $10,000 from it's high today of $29,068. 


    This does not apply to WA, CA, OR, IL, CO, or NC because investors from there continually post that their areas are immune from "corrections" and "burps" in the market place. Must be nice to have such assurances, the same way investors did in 2008

    ********************************************************************************************************************************************

    Does that mean a housing crash?

    Does it mean the economy collapses?

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y


    LOLZ

  • Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    @Mike Hern are you going all-in on some inverse ETF’s or shorting some REITS then or what?

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    @Mike Hern are you going all-in on some inverse ETF’s or shorting some REITS then or what?


     I asked the same thing to another doomsayer recently! 

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    @Steve K. The more I read Mike Hern's post the more he reminds me of Mike S. from a few years ago. Hmmm...

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Bill F.:

    @Steve K. The more I read Mike Hern's post the more he reminds me of Mike S. from a few years ago. Hmmm...


     Bingo. You win.

  • San Leandro CA · Member since 2020 · 13 posts · 1 vote
    4y

    ARMs do seem to be getting popular again but they’re actually hard to qualify for and are way different than the pre ‘08 arms. Feel free to correct me if I’m wrong but it 22 feels different than 08

  • Investor · Scottsdale Austin Tuktoyaktuk · Member since 2021 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Jon Martin:
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    @Mike Hern are you going all-in on some inverse ETF’s or shorting some REITS then or what?

     I asked the same thing to another doomsayer recently! 

     I'm actually a pretty simple guy. I don't do ETF's or REITS or futures or Crypto, etc. Although just for kicks we bought our first "stock" ever a while back. It's a SPAC for a service I believe in. Just for fun, casino money if you will. We've never ventured into the stock market before and have no future plans to do so.

    I'm stil buying properties.

    I stick to the adage "if I can't hold it, I won't buy it". I prefer cashflowing real estate (I don't bet that properties will go up) but if they cashflow I'm happy. I buy a little silver, a little gold (Not ETF's though) and a little land.

    I'm adding a minus10% premium to the properties I buy. If it's a deal at 90% of asking, (projecting the price in 6 months), I'll buy for 100% now expecting the drop in value. The cashflow, writeoffs and tax depreciation are worth it to me.

    So, I'll buy a $500,000 property today if it cashflows even if it will be worth about $450,000 in the future. Since I'm not selling, I don't really care. Again I'm looking for cashflow, not appreciation.

    And since I buy "off market" using "Subject To" and "owner financing" I can actually do some purchases that wouldn't make sense to do if they were on the MLS and required paying a realtor's fees. I'm happy to buy a property that needs a little love to make it respectable again. This doesn't really work for a passive investor, but I'm involved in the process and enjoy it thoroughly so to me, it's simply playing monopoly.

    I enjoy macro economics on the side. ;-)

  • Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Account Closed:
    Quote from @Jon Martin:
    Quote from @Steve K.:

    @Mike Hern are you going all-in on some inverse ETF’s or shorting some REITS then or what?

     I asked the same thing to another doomsayer recently! 

     I'm actually a pretty simple guy. I don't do ETF's or REITS or futures or Crypto, etc. Although just for kicks we bought our first "stock" ever a while back. It's a SPAC for a service I believe in. Just for fun, casino money if you will. We've never ventured into the stock market before and have no future plans to do so.

    I'm stil buying properties.

    I stick to the adage "if I can't hold it, I won't buy it". I prefer cashflowing real estate (I don't bet that properties will go up) but if they cashflow I'm happy. I buy a little silver, a little gold (Not ETF's though) and a little land.

    I'm adding a minus10% premium to the properties I buy. If it's a deal at 90% of asking, (projecting the price in 6 months), I'll buy for 100% now expecting the drop in value. The cashflow, writeoffs and tax depreciation are worth it to me.

    So, I'll buy a $500,000 property today if it cashflows even if it will be worth about $450,000 in the future. Since I'm not selling, I don't really care. Again I'm looking for cashflow, not appreciation.

    And since I buy "off market" using "Subject To" and "owner financing" I can actually do some purchases that wouldn't make sense to do if they were on the MLS and required paying a realtor's fees. I'm happy to buy a property that needs a little love to make it respectable again. This doesn't really work for a passive investor, but I'm involved in the process and enjoy it thoroughly so to me, it's simply playing monopoly.

    I enjoy macro economics on the side. ;-)


    Finally, after eight years of reading market correction posts!  This is a first on many fronts.  A market correction poster that is describing what they are doing (which is what matters) rather than what is going to happen.  And, more importantly, that there are ways to buy and mitigate risk for all market conditions.  Every market correction poster should read this post.

  • Specialist · Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 626 posts · 700 votes
    4y

    @Account Closed mentioned, good to see you share your plan as well. IMHO, I think you will likely be right on all those predictions...it's just a matter of timing.  

    With respect to sub-prime mortgages, the problem is not created when those products become popular, rather the problem occurs when those loans become due. Adjustable rate mortgages (ARMs) with short term maturity (3-5 yrs) will be popular when fixed interest rates are high. Like last cycle, buyers want to get into a home and to qualify for the DSCR they will need a lower payment, hence the attractiveness of an ARM. Those payments will adjust in 3-5 years and a high % of those buyers will default. When the defaults get too high, the bubble will pop. Looking back at history as a comparison, we are in the early stages of creating that bubble as interest rates have been extremely low and these ARMs have not been necessary.

    Speaking of history, for those of you who'd like to gain perspective from one of the best historic real estate cycle authors, spend $40 and pick up a copy of Philip J Anderson's book called the "secret lives of real estate and banking". That will give historic perspective and help with understanding macro real estate markets. History would suggest the RE market has more legs, even if the upward trajectory in interest rates prove to cool off the market temporarily. 

    As it relates to the other predictions, I would tend to agree. Conditions don't look good for risk assets. 

    All the best, 

    Jack

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