How can I un-own a property ?

How can I un-own a property ?

Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes

I own an now long since abandoned house in NJ.  There was no mortgage but the taxes and W/S bills now far exceed any possible value of the property.  The town used to clean up the property and then put a lien on the property for the costs.  This proving generally ineffective to their purposes - they have adopted an alternative tactic now.  Now they do nothing but demand that the owner clean up the house, repaint it, and etc.  And then if the owner doesn't do it they issue a 'ticket' - which results in a summons to appear in municipal court, where the judge then revokes the owners driver's license.

My question is:  can I form a land trust or other entity, sell the subject property to the created entity, and then just let them chase that phantom?  Who, after all;  even if they do ever catch them, will not be at all inconvenienced by having it's driving privileges revoked in the state of new jersey.

Or can you all think of any alternative resolution to this issue?

stephen

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Jean BolgerPro Member
Aurora, CO · Member since 2012 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
12y

@Account Closed that is an uncalled for attack. Have you actually read this thread? do you know the area and the circumstances? To say that this property is unsaleable due to Stephen's being "unaccountable" is to ignore pretty much every relevant detail.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    As I stated above, a deed has to have delivery and acceptance. That doesn't mean that the   Grantee has to sign in most states.  Usually acceptance is in the form of consideration ie payment. 

    Additionally it would not erase any existing liens or judgements for the period of ownership.  Look at it this way, does buying a property subject 2 wipe out the existing mortgage ? Of course not

  • Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes
    12y

    But you can sell to a trust that you've set up. It seems important to "sell" it to the trust, rather than just deed it. In California we use a grant deed primarily to transfer ownership in a sale, and a quit claim for inter spousal, corrective deeds, amendments, etc. what would signal a sale in New Jersey? What are the different deeds available?  If you name the trust creatively, it should throw a wrench into their search. "Camden Revitalization Trust" or "New Jersey Corrections Department Trust, or "Fairview section 1845-192 Trust". 

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Derek W. 

    I am sure you could to try to insulate from future costs but it will not alleviate any liens , judgements or past fines. Using my example above, does a trust wipe out an existing mortgage ? 

  • Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes
    12y

    The Original Post said "how do I un-own a property."  It didn't say "how do I wipe out all liens and fines so I can continue to own a property." @Stephen S. Has already stated that the liens and fines attach to the property, not the individual.  So when they come after him he simply says "oh, I sold that house for $100 to the Camden Revitalization organization, and I paid the sales taxes on that money". 

    "Mr. Steven, do you have contact info for the group you sold it to?"

    "Of course I do.  It's po box xxx,  Camden New Jersey.  Please forward all bills and threatening letters to them and leave me alone. Thank you."

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    We are all getting off track here - I don't care about the back bills:  taxes, water, and sewer.  The property owes them and eventually some agreement will be reached in regard to them.  If the city was run by anyone with even a partial brain they would adopt the plan that I outlined to them 20 years ago.  Which is:  for every property on which more taxes are owed than the property is worth - offer the owner this deal:

    My Owner;  we will put all back property taxes on hold.  If you immediately begin paying all taxes on time, and continue to do that for five years - the back taxes on hold balance will then be zero'ed out and you will not owe them.  Any failure to pay the taxes when due will negate this agreement.  If you are unable or unwilling to take this deal - we will immediately foreclose on your house, remove you from it, and offer the same deal to the next owner of the house. 

    My logic is that no rational person will ever pay more in back taxes than the property is worth.  So the value of the back-tax balance is effectively zero anyway - as the city is never going to get that money.  My plan would sort out the well-intentioned from the unable/unwilling-to-pay people.  And shuffle in a gang of new willing-to-pay taxpayers.  And so re-establish a paying tax base in the city of Camden.

    Wait!  Now you're getting me off track! <g>

    What I do care about now is that the owner-of-record is me.  So the shiftless, the homeless, and the crackheads that the city allows to freely run amok happily tear up the property.  Then the city insists that the owner of record restore all the damage.  If I don't - they revoke my drivers license.  My interest is in having a different owner-of-record.  Say;  a separate company.  And preferably one without a drivers license. <g>

    stephen
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    Originally posted by @Darrell Shepherd:

    First off, this is why I hold nothing in my personal name and have more LLC's than houses right now...The "get insurance and be protected" just doesn't cover as much as the asset protection stuff does. You need both if you are doing higher volume. Not preaching, just saying that for the people that might be reading this...

    Anyway, I'd check the service requirements on the lawsuit stuff.  I don't know NJ law, and have never heard of a municipality pulling this kinda thing, but hey, that's NJ for you.  There has to be a duty of the city to serve you with the lawsuit so you have a chance to defend yourself, though.  If you reside in another county and get your tax bills mailed to there, I cant imagine a tack and serve at a vacant house is legal notification.   I think its lawyer time to check your options.  I'd also challenge the valuation of this thing if the taxes are that high.  Might wanna check with the state and see what oversight they have over municipalities overstepping their legal authority, too.  Again, you have to check the law, but it surprises me they can enforce criminal type action outside of the city for unpaid property taxes.  That wouldn't fly here in Georgia.    

    As stated, any transfer (create an LLC and sell it subject to existing liens...maybe a trust, but technically a land trust is a pass through entity so its technically still your tax unless you get into more sophisticated stuff. With the LLC they'd have to pierce the 'corporate veil', which could probably be done with this scenario, but its still way harder) should keep the future bills off of you, but that's not going to solve the previous ones if you were owner of record when they were assessed.

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    Yes;  that is exactly what I meant and what I said. <g>

    stephen
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     Originally posted by @Derek W.:

    The Original Post said "how do I un-own a property."  It didn't say "how do I wipe out all liens and fines so I can continue to own a property." @Stephen S. Has already stated that the liens and fines attach to the property, not the individual.  So when they come after him he simply says "oh, I sold that house for $100 to the Camden Revitalization organization, and I paid the sales taxes on that money". 

    "Mr. Steven, do you have contact info for the group you sold it to?"

    "Of course I do.  It's po box xxx,  Camden New Jersey.  Please forward all bills and threatening letters to them and leave me alone. Thank you."

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    it just is not that simple.  We just can't transfer a past liability.  So using this scenario, I can sell an underwater property to an entity and tell the mortgage company to go collect from xxxx ? 

    A city lien or judgement is against the owner but stays with the property meaning it isn't wiped out by a sale or foreclosure in most states.  A property cannot be used only an individual or an entity

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    Hit send too soon! This is a good example as to why a property should be owned by an LLC as the company with no other assets could be vacated.

  • Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes
    12y

    @Greg H. I don't think we are talking apples to apples. A mortgage is personally guaranteed by an individual and secured by the property. A code enforcement lien only attaches to the property.  There is no personal guarantee that goes beyond it. Their only remedy is to foreclosure on the property and take it as collateral for their lien. Also there are tax and credit implications with a mortgage. Not with a lien. 

    I had a friend who bought bulk property in Detroit for years. He had to buy the entire tape, the good, the bad, the ugly.  With the useless vacant lots and burn outs, he deeded them to a shell entity with only a po box as contact info, and let them rot. The city could come after that entity, but ultimately couldn't figure out who it was and just dropped the matter. I'm sure that po box is stuffed full of threatening letters, bills, notices and the like. But that's as far as they could go. 

  • Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes
    12y

    There are many reasons for many different entities, both good and bad. In this case, I would prefer a good 'ol Illinois Land Trust over an LLC. An LLC has yearly fees. It has to be set up with a state government branch (yuck). And there is paper work tracing it back to the managing member of the LLC. I can set up a trust in 5 minutes on my computer with no cost, no annual fees, and no way for anyone to ever know who the parties of the trust are. It's a private document that is held in my locked filing cabinet at home.

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    Greg Hall - you're not following the topic and are attempting to bifurcate the issue. 

    I agree with your delivery and acceptance of deed comment. This is consistent with both those states that take their real property laws directly from English Common law as well as those in western states, like CA, where I sort out attorneys' and government agencies' title and liquidity matters. 

    However, the topic at present is specific to the "un-owning" of real property in New Jersey. The OP has made it clear that the issue at hand is not the debt created to-date, but the ongoing exposure in future. My vote is to stay on topic.

  • Real Estate Investor · Encinitas, CA · Member since 2013 · 225 posts · 91 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @J Scott:
    Originally posted by @Derek W.:

    @Stephen S. Can you clarify why you couldn't just record your quit claim deed to someone else and no longer be the owner? 

    See my post above...it doesn't work that way...

    If it did, wouldn't you be a little concerned that he'll quit claim it to YOU???  :-)

    He could. I don't understand this. I have never signed ANY deed as a buyer and I have signed EVERY deed as a seller. As a buyer the deed just shows up in the mail after recording.

    Maybe the process is different in NJ.

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Rick H. 

    I have followed the topic. I read it as the OP does not want to have his Drivers License suspended and my point is that any transfer now would not alleviate any past debt//judgement / summons which could get his licensed suspended. Am I missing something ?

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y

    This all started  (I thought ended <g>)  because a tenant complained to the board of health  (I think they were the first ones involved)  that their refrigerator did not work.  That was about July 1.  I was in Mexico at the time and was not alerted to fact that I was then given 24 hours to resolve the problem.  When I 'failed to comply' the tenant was then moved to a fairly nice hotel.

    When I got back from Mexico a few weeks later I saw a letter stating the above.  I drove out to the property and found that a back neighbor's massive tree had fallen across the back alley and taken down the arial line from the telephone pole to my house.  The city had come and removed the section of the tree trunk  (about 3' in diameter)  which had blocked the back alley - but had left all the rest. The neighbors refused to answer the door and only spoke Spanish through it.  When I responded in Spanish - they went silent. <g> 

    I called the electric company who said:  We'll send an inspector out to assess the required repairs.

    Two days later:  Replace the pecker-head and the anchor for it and for the arial feed.

    OK - I did that - put the overhead line back up and turn on the power.

    You should have called - it has to be inspected.

    Why can't the install crew check it?

    Nope;  has to be an inspector - two days.

    Result:  Oh; the pecker-head is fine but the service cable has to be replaced.

    Why?

    It's too old - you have to replace it.

    OK;  I did that.  Please come out to inspect and put the power back on.

    Nothing happened so I called:

    We can't turn the power on - the meter socket has to be replaced.

    Why?

    The inspector's report doesn't say why - it just does.

    So I got out and replace the meter socket and the service cable to the main breaker in the panel.

    OK;  it's all done - everything is new from the main breaker out to the new pecker-head - now please turn the power on.

    Result:  Inspection report now says that the main panel is too old, isn't up to code, and has to be replaced.

    1. How would the inspector know that without having any access to the house to see the breaker panel?

    2. The breaker panel, all the breakers, and all the wiring in the house were replaced two years ago - what makes it due for replacement now?

    3. I think I need to call the PUC and ask for your department to be investigated.

    Some various mumbo-jumbo talking to different people at the electric company goes on and I finally get a very nice guy who says:  We can't turn the power on - but we can't tell you why.

    What?  Why not?

    You will have to ask your tenant - we can't discuss it with you.

    (so, dumb as I am - a light finally goes on in my head)  Are you telling me that the power wasn't on Because The Bill Isn't Paid???

    I can't discuss that with you.

    OK;  I know you are just doing your job.  But how about this?  I will start saying words and you just say "stop" when you think it is the right time?

    He laughs and I begin:  "July, June, May, April"

    Stop!

    So the power has been shut off for non-payment for Four Months before the tree even fell!!!!!

    He laughs and says:  I can't discuss that with you sir - you'll have to ask your tenant.

    Meanwhile I have gotten a bill from some agency for  (I really forget the exact amount now)  for about $2000.  It's the cost of my tenant's "housing" in the hotel that I am apparently providing.

    I called the agency and asked about the bill.

    You failed to provide adequate housing conditions sir - and then failed to respond to our demands for repairs - so we had no choice but to remove the tenant and minor children to appropriate housing.

    What was inadequate about the housing I provided?  

    There was no working refrigerator in the home - that is a violation.

    1. It's an electric refrigerator.

    2. It requires electricity to operate

    3. The tenant is responsible for providing electricity - not me.

    Sir;  a tree fell and damaged the electric wires coming to the house - you refused to repair them!

    When did that happen?

    Your tenant filed the complaint on July 1.

    Did she mention to you that her electricity had been turned off for non-payment since April?

    What?

    I checked with the electric company - there has been no power to the house since April.  So when the tree fell the refrigerator had already been off for four months.

    What about the tree damage?

    I was in Mexico when it happened.  As soon as I became aware of it I immediately replaced it with all with new equipment and wiring.  The electric company won't turn the power on because the tenant hasn't paid the bill.  It has nothing to do with me.

    Well;  your tenant has been living in a hotel - you are legally required to pay the bill.

    Why is that? HUD normally pays for all her housing - send the bill to HUD.

    What?  She is on Section Eight!!!!!

    Yes she is.

    She never told us that!

    Maybe you need to talk to her. But HUD pays for her housing - not me. So send the hotel bill to them.

    Within 12 hours she was living at the property again. <g>

    She then made arrangements with the local church - explaining that I would pay any amount that the church's electric bill increased - if she could run an extension cord from the church to her house.  The pastor knows me as I used to rebuild and donate window box A/C units to the church.  They gave them out to elderly people in the neighborhood who would otherwise not have A/C.  I also helped the church raise money and did some repairs for them.  So the pastor agreed to the extension cord idea.

    A month or so later a HUD worker calls me and complains about something. I disagree and say I'll meet her at the property to see it in person. One of her several complaints is roaches. I have a copy of the lease - which clearly states that by signing it the tenant agrees that they have inspected the property and that there are no bugs or other vermin present. Therefore if any later appear it shall be the obligation of the tenant to correct their damage to the property by exterminating them.

    The HUD worker, a short, fat, belligerent, chicken-necking, black woman says, in her militant tone, that she doesn't Care what the lease says. The tenant shouldn't be responsible for roaches. "They just happen!" and later: "Landlords always blame the tenants for everything!"

    Roaches doesn't just happen - they never happen at my house.  Are you suggesting that I Brought roaches here to annoy my tenant?  A lease is a contract.  She shouldn't have signed a contract agreeing that she was to be responsible.  She did though - which makes me not responsible and I'm not paying to get rid of them.

    This HUD woman is the type who will not let you speak: cutting you off and screeching in some virtually unintelligible dialect before you can get a complete sentence out.

    BTW:  This is all taking place at the front curb and her performance may have been substantially for the neighbor audience.

    At some point she steps in, pokes me in the chest and starts says:  You Will Do . . . 

    I stepped back and said:  Poke me again and you'll need some new teeth.

    Are you threatening Me????

    Not at all - but if you attack me again like that I will massively defend myself - you decide.

     So she then starts in screeching and demanding and making the poking motions - but not touching me again.  All about how I only own houses so I can abuse poor defenseless poor people and steal money from the government programs and on and on and on.

    Finally I put on my Very Large Voice and say: Shut up! I am not her father (pointing to the tenant) and I'm not your servant. I don't give a damn if you have a job or if she sleeps in the gutter. I'm done with you, I'm done with HUD, I'm done with this city, and I'm done with this house. I will never set foot on this property or have anything to do with it ever again.

    Then I got in my truck and never went back for probably five or more years.  I don't know what happened to the tenant.  And I would never have gone back except that the city gets the state to revoke my drivers license for failing to maintain the house to their standards. <g>    

  • Real Estate Agent · Ivor, VA · Member since 2011 · 73 posts · 21 votes
    12y

    Can you get a Florida drivers license?

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    I would assume so and getting a Florida drivers license was on my list of things to do while I was there in FL for the last two months.  But one thing and another - I never got to it.  Houses and tenants came first in my priorities and I eventually had to get back to NJ to beautify the sole remaining defect in the otherwise fair city of Camden. <g>  

    And it's not really "my NJ driver's license"  which gets revoked.  Rather it is  "my driving privileges in the state of new jersey"  which get revoked.  So even having another state's drivers license does Not provide me the right to drive in the state of new jersey.

    So if I do drive in NJ, and get caught at it, I will be subject to large fines for  "driving on the NJ revoked list".

    The Law is a beautiful thing. <g>


    stephen
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                             Originally posted by @Stanley Crawford:

    Can you get a Florida drivers license?

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    I'm not sure if you mis-understand or not. <g>

     None of the taxes or other liens have any effect on me.  When I got back into my truck and drove away all those years ago I didn't want the house.  I have never changed my mind about it.  The future is my concern.  So long as I maintain the property - my NJ license is safe.  So in that sense I guess we could say that what I really want is to avoid being forced into maintaining the property - or being subject to fines or the eventual revocation of my NJ drivers license.

    There is nothing in the past which endangers my NJ drivers license.  And, as by this coming Monday I will have the property repaired and repainted, there in nothing in the immediate future which will endanger my NJ drivers license.

    But this is my last time being pushed around.  Something is going to change and it's not going to be me. <g>

    stephen
    -------------


    Originally posted by @Greg H.:

    @Rick H. 

    I have followed the topic. I read it as the OP does not want to have his Drivers License suspended and my point is that any transfer now would not alleviate any past debt//judgement / summons which could get his licensed suspended. Am I missing something ?

  • Greg H.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Stephen S. 

    Yes I did interpret that wrong. If only the future maintenance matters then deed that thing to UCA Land Trust(Up Camden's A$$) and be done with it ! 

  • Investor · South Jersey, NJ · Member since 2013 · 338 posts · 22 votes
    12y

    @Stephen S. 

    Is the property in movable condition?

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    12y
    It's a townhouse so detaching it from the joining properties might prove troubling to the neighbors.

    Why do you ask about moving it?

    stephen
    -----------


    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Stephen S. 

    Is the property in movable condition?

  • Investor · Fort Wayne, IN · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 515 votes
    11y

    @Stephen S. Ok this is an old post but do you not have to have back taxes paid to record a deed? All back taxes and fines must be paid before a new deed can be recorded here, otherwise run an ad on CL or Ebay and be done with it. 

  • Jerry W.Pro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Thermopolis, WY · Member since 2012 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    11y

    @Stephen S., I know nothing about NJ law and do not want to but here are my thoughts if you are interested.  First you have 2 problems, one is civil, one is criminal.  The civil one is unenforceable so the passed a criminal law to in effect blackmail you.  It stinks but is legal.  To fight back do something just as legal, but with a bad smell to get out of it.

    Forma legal NJ LLC or or corporation. Fund it with money, buy the property. Do your minutes, get your tax ID number, pay your income taxes, and try to sale the property. When you cannot, let the Corporation lapse for lack of income to pay taxes. It is legally sold. If the corporation is legal they cannot hold the officers personally liable. NP has GREAT corporate laws that favor corporations. It will not do away with your old tax liability, but you will no longer legally own it. The town cannot hold you criminally liable for not mowing the grass or fixing it up so no more tickets. You cannot throw a corporation in jail but they can revoke the charter, so what. I would not suggest such a distasteful tactic but the city has obviously resorted to it. To be fair to them they are trying to help, but using criminal powers to extort money is just wrong. I spend too much time using criminal law to get truly bad people not line the pockets of government.

        This plan might have problems, everyone is welcome to criticize it or ignore it.  It is worth exactly what was paid for it.  I wish you luck on this.  I would suggest not ignoring the problem.  there is a non violator compact suspension law that most states have adopted that causes any member state to revoke a license in their state of anyone revoked in a different state.  You could even do the unthinkable and hire attorneys in both states to sort it out and fight it out.  Again good luck bud!

  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    11y

    Wow! If ever there was a cautionary tale worth telling, surely this is it!  A pity that the OP isn't getting paid for this endeavour, because I don't recall the last time I was so entertained by a thread.  Keep it going, because surely I am not the only one who is keen to hear the outcome? Beats Bold&Beautiful hands down...

    My favourite quote so far from @Stephen S. :- "I eventually had to get back to NJ to beautify the sole remaining defect in the otherwise fair city of Camden"...

  • Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes
    11y
    This is true and a number of BP people privately expressed a keen interest in having this property for their very own.  But somehow or other, after expressing that interest  (and perhaps looking into the matter <g>)  all fell strangely silent and unresponsive. <g>

    stephen
    ------------------


    Originally posted by @Thomas Weir:

    What part of NJ is it in? there's quite a few people in BP that are from the Garden State that may be able to do something with it. It's kind of strange that the city won't take it or do a tax sale on it! Hope you can get it off your hands soon.

  • Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2015 · 89 posts · 30 votes
    11y

    This  I've read through this - here is a suggestion not made before: Assuming that the city does want the house inhabited,find a potential buyer who is willing to negotiate terms with the city before the sale. Terms should  include releasing past liability and setting up expectations going forward. City is already mad at current owner, so is not going to give him a break, but the potential buyer is an innocent who has the city's best interests at heart. Buyer can't buy (or even contract to buy, to the city's knowledge) first then deal, as the city then has the upper hand. If the city is not willing to deal under any circumstances, it's time to sue them.  Current  owner needs to hire an attorney. He's too emotionally involved to resolve anything at this point.

    This is not intended as legal advice.

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