I own an now long since abandoned house in NJ. There was no mortgage but the taxes and W/S bills now far exceed any possible value of the property. The town used to clean up the property and then put a lien on the property for the costs. This proving generally ineffective to their purposes - they have adopted an alternative tactic now. Now they do nothing but demand that the owner clean up the house, repaint it, and etc. And then if the owner doesn't do it they issue a 'ticket' - which results in a summons to appear in municipal court, where the judge then revokes the owners driver's license. My question is: can I form a land trust or other entity, sell the subject property to the created entity, and then just let them chase that phantom? Who, after all; even if they do ever catch them, will not be at all inconvenienced by having it's driving privileges revoked in the state of new jersey. Or can you all think of any alternative resolution to this issue? stephen -------------

Do you, perhaps, mean Quit Claim Deed (which releases any interest you may or may not own but does not affirmatively assure that you own any interest)? You might consider checking these things out before posting. Just a friendly thought.

Drag a homeless guy down to the title company with you and sell it to him for $1 and give him the $100. I doubt they will pay to extradite a homeless guy for lawn charges.

Account Closed that is an uncalled for attack. Have you actually read this thread? do you know the area and the circumstances? To say that this property is unsaleable due to Stephen's being "unaccountable" is to ignore pretty much every relevant detail.

hey Account Closed , next time you teach the class "how to be a perfect investor and use my proprietary crystal ball to all avoid all mistakes" will you send me an invite? I need to go to that course!

I have a squatter in south jersey that I would love to trick into taking this off of your hands...

@Stephen S. I'd have to agree with Jay Hinrichs on this when he suggest you donate it to Habitat for Humanity. Either that or just sell it. Afterall, you don't really want it, its abandoned and you're an absentee owner. What's the point of doing the trust deed if you don't want anything to do with the house and its not even bringing in any monies? Help revitalize the community, give someone in dire need a place to stay via the HH. Kudos, Mary

This all started (I thought ended ) because a tenant complained to the board of health (I think they were the first ones involved) that their refrigerator did not work. That was about July 1. I was in Mexico at the time and was not alerted to fact that I was then given 24 hours to resolve the problem. When I 'failed to comply' the tenant was then moved to a fairly nice hotel. When I got back from Mexico a few weeks later I saw a letter stating the above. I drove out to the property and found that a back neighbor's massive tree had fallen across the back alley and taken down the arial line from the telephone pole to my house. The city had come and removed the section of the tree trunk (about 3' in diameter) which had blocked the back alley - but had left all the rest. The neighbors refused to answer the door and only spoke Spanish through it. When I responded in Spanish - they went silent. I called the electric company who said: We'll send an inspector out to assess the required repairs. Two days later: Replace the pecker-head and the anchor for it and for the arial feed. OK - I did that - put the overhead line back up and turn on the power. You should have called - it has to be inspected. Why can't the install crew check it? Nope; has to be an inspector - two days. Result: Oh; the pecker-head is fine but the service cable has to be replaced. Why? It's too old - you have to replace it. OK; I did that. Please come out to inspect and put the power back on. Nothing happened so I called: We can't turn the power on - the meter socket has to be replaced. Why? The inspector's report doesn't say why - it just does. So I got out and replace the meter socket and the service cable to the main breaker in the panel. OK; it's all done - everything is new from the main breaker out to the new pecker-head - now please turn the power on. Result: Inspection report now says that the main panel is too old, isn't up to code, and has to be replaced. 1. How would the inspector know that without having any access to the house to see the breaker panel? 2. The breaker panel, all the breakers, and all the wiring in the house were replaced two years ago - what makes it due for replacement now? 3. I think I need to call the PUC and ask for your department to be investigated. Some various mumbo-jumbo talking to different people at the electric company goes on and I finally get a very nice guy who says: We can't turn the power on - but we can't tell you why. What? Why not? You will have to ask your tenant - we can't discuss it with you. (so, dumb as I am - a light finally goes on in my head) Are you telling me that the power wasn't on Because The Bill Isn't Paid??? I can't discuss that with you. OK; I know you are just doing your job. But how about this? I will start saying words and you just say "stop" when you think it is the right time? He laughs and I begin: "July, June, May, April" Stop! So the power has been shut off for non-payment for Four Months before the tree even fell!!!!! He laughs and says: I can't discuss that with you sir - you'll have to ask your tenant. Meanwhile I have gotten a bill from some agency for (I really forget the exact amount now) for about $2000. It's the cost of my tenant's "housing" in the hotel that I am apparently providing. I called the agency and asked about the bill. You failed to provide adequate housing conditions sir - and then failed to respond to our demands for repairs - so we had no choice but to remove the tenant and minor children to appropriate housing. What was inadequate about the housing I provided? There was no working refrigerator in the home - that is a violation. 1. It's an electric refrigerator. 2. It requires electricity to operate 3. The tenant is responsible for providing electricity - not me. Sir; a tree fell and damaged the electric wires coming to the house - you refused to repair them! When did that happen? Your tenant filed the complaint on July 1. Did she mention to you that her electricity had been turned off for non-payment since April? What? I checked with the electric company - there has been no power to the house since April. So when the tree fell the refrigerator had already been off for four months. What about the tree damage? I was in Mexico when it happened. As soon as I became aware of it I immediately replaced it with all with new equipment and wiring. The electric company won't turn the power on because the tenant hasn't paid the bill. It has nothing to do with me. Well; your tenant has been living in a hotel - you are legally required to pay the bill. Why is that? HUD normally pays for all her housing - send the bill to HUD. What? She is on Section Eight!!!!! Yes she is. She never told us that! Maybe you need to talk to her. But HUD pays for her housing - not me. So send the hotel bill to them. Within 12 hours she was living at the property again. She then made arrangements with the local church - explaining that I would pay any amount that the church's electric bill increased - if she could run an extension cord from the church to her house. The pastor knows me as I used to rebuild and donate window box A/C units to the church. They gave them out to elderly people in the neighborhood who would otherwise not have A/C. I also helped the church raise money and did some repairs for them. So the pastor agreed to the extension cord idea. A month or so later a HUD worker calls me and complains about something. I disagree and say I'll meet her at the property to see it in person. One of her several complaints is roaches. I have a copy of the lease - which clearly states that by signing it the tenant agrees that they have inspected the property and that there are no bugs or other vermin present. Therefore if any later appear it shall be the obligation of the tenant to correct their damage to the property by exterminating them. The HUD worker, a short, fat, belligerent, chicken-necking, black woman says, in her militant tone, that she doesn't Care what the lease says. The tenant shouldn't be responsible for roaches. "They just happen!" and later: "Landlords always blame the tenants for everything!" Roaches doesn't just happen - they never happen at my house. Are you suggesting that I Brought roaches here to annoy my tenant? A lease is a contract. She shouldn't have signed a contract agreeing that she was to be responsible. She did though - which makes me not responsible and I'm not paying to get rid of them. This HUD woman is the type who will not let you speak: cutting you off and screeching in some virtually unintelligible dialect before you can get a complete sentence out. BTW: This is all taking place at the front curb and her performance may have been substantially for the neighbor audience. At some point she steps in, pokes me in the chest and starts says: You Will Do . . . I stepped back and said: Poke me again and you'll need some new teeth. Are you threatening Me???? Not at all - but if you attack me again like that I will massively defend myself - you decide. So she then starts in screeching and demanding and making the poking motions - but not touching me again. All about how I only own houses so I can abuse poor defenseless poor people and steal money from the government programs and on and on and on. Finally I put on my Very Large Voice and say: Shut up! I am not her father (pointing to the tenant) and I'm not your servant. I don't give a damn if you have a job or if she sleeps in the gutter. I'm done with you, I'm done with HUD, I'm done with this city, and I'm done with this house. I will never set foot on this property or have anything to do with it ever again. Then I got in my truck and never went back for probably five or more years. I don't know what happened to the tenant. And I would never have gone back except that the city gets the state to revoke my drivers license for failing to maintain the house to their standards.

It would be great if people could actually take time to read a thread before commenting. (I'm not trying to be a grouch, but it's just a trend I'm noticing that I think detracts from the forums)

Let me expand - I will happily give this house to anyone. In fact; I'll pay anyone $100. to take it. How about you? Be a quick $100. for you, eh? I have already quit claimed it to people. But no one has ever taken it. No one wants it. Tax liens and water/sewer liens are probably double the ARV and running at 18%. This city is the barely walking dead. It really has no reason to exist. It has tens of thousands of houses in the same and worse situations. The city itself refused to take this house back. And told me point blank: Why would we want it? We're not letting you off the hook - then who would pay us? They tried passing a law which made the owners of the houses personally liable for all liens. That was later struck down by a higher court - so they countered with "enforcement of untidy lawn ordinance" punishable by whatever the judge decrees. Which can include jail time, garnishee of wages, or . . . revocation of the owner's driver's license. That has already happened to me. All notices went to the property. The tickets went to the property. The summons to go to court was served at the property. All obviously went unanswered and I was eventually convicted in absentia. One day I was stopped for driving on the revoked list - there was a warrant out for my arrest. Crime? An untidy lawn. Fines: $5500. plus court costs. stephen -------------

Yes, you can! When municipalities use tactics to extract money from you that you have abandoned any hope of receiving corresponding benefits, you need to change your own tactics to protect your own interests. After all, city and all government is supposed to work and represent you. Yes, I've found it necessary to employ and implement the very strategy you mention. The only difference is that I found a relative of my former borrower (I regrettably foreclosed on a TD note and got an alligator property) to happily act as trustee. Perhaps you could name the city or agency as trustee (!) and maintain some level of control of designation of trustee as bene of your irrevocable trust : )

How can I un-own a property ?

Derek W.

Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes

12y

@Steven Potter you raise a really good point. In California, only the seller has to notarized and sign a grant deed or qc deed. There is nowhere the buyer signs in order to record the deed. So I could very easily deed my property to the city, or grandma, or anyone else without their knowledge or permission. But reading the thread our OP has said that he has quit claimed the property a few times, but they never did the paper work on their side to accept it?

0 Reply

Steven Potter

Investor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 8 votes

12y

@Derek W.

I read what the OP said to mean that the quit claim deed was never recorded.

I have never heard of a state where the Grantee is required to sign the deed.

0 Reply

Stephen S.

OP

Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes

12y

I didn't fail to make a profit. I maintained the property and made a nice profit right up until I decided to walk away from it. I'm not unaccountable - I was fully willing to give a property with zero encumbrances back to the city of Camden - and I did so. I am not "sitting on a debt" - taxes and related liens attach to the property and not to me. I didn't write the laws - I am just playing by their rules as they exist.

I am not legally or even morally obligated to pay the city a single dime and have told them so ever since they started this fight. The law says if I don't pay they can have the house in lieu of payment. And I agree.

BTW: I'll do as I choose - thank you. Don't get on your preachy high horse with me.

stephen
-----------

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

you are sitting on a debt. The liens and such is what you're trying to give away. You make it sound like you're trying to sell or give away a house when really it's just a debt. Why would or should the city take a debt from you lol. Have fun paying that back. Maybe next time maintain your properties instead of trying to be unaccountable for your properties when u fail to make a profit.

0 Reply

Derek W.

Investor · Kern county Riverside County, CA · Member since 2008 · 494 posts · 261 votes

12y

@Stephen S. Can you clarify why you couldn't just record your quit claim deed to someone else and no longer be the owner?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Steven Potter:

@Stephen S.

I don't know about NJ, but in MN all you have to do is Create a quit claim deed, deeding the property to whoever you choose. Record the deed in the county recorders office. Visit the county assessors office with a copy of the newly recorded deed and update the taxpayer information to the new owners. In my neck of the woods, you can bequeath your property to anyone for a $46 recording fee. For a little more money you can have a local title company do it for you.

It doesn't work that way -- Quit Claim Deeds only have power over those who sign it. If a Grantee doesn't sign the deed, and refuses to take responsibility for the property, the Grantor still retains all responsibility for his share of ownership.

Think about it -- if that weren't the case, Stephen could quit claim the property to YOU tomorrow...do you think you'd then be responsible for the liens/encumbrances?

And just to be clear, Stephen COULD quit claim to you tomorrow, but unless you signed the deed and/or took responsibility for the property, you have no liability. And for reference, in many states, the Grantee must sign the quit claim deed as well.

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Derek W.:

@Stephen S. Can you clarify why you couldn't just record your quit claim deed to someone else and no longer be the owner?

See my post above...it doesn't work that way...

If it did, wouldn't you be a little concerned that he'll quit claim it to YOU??? :-)

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Account Closed

Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 688 votes

12y

Give it away for free?

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Account Closed:

Give it away for free?

He offered $100 to anyone who would take it. Do you want it? Just let him know. In fact, I bet you could get him up to $200... :-)

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Steven Potter

Investor · Duluth, MN · Member since 2014 · 22 posts · 8 votes

12y

@J Scott

Like I said, I have no idea about NJ, but it MN it it definitely possible to bequeath property to someone without their knowledge.

Am I concerned about this? Not not really, because for the same $46 recording fee, I can give the property back.

In reality it rarely happens because most properties have some value. However I know of several cases where people no longer want to pay the taxes on a property and quit claim it to the city, county or state.

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Steven Potter:

Like I said, I have no idea about NJ, but it MN it it definitely possible to bequeath property to someone without their knowledge.

I'm not arguing that technically a quit claim deed can be recorded without the Grantee signing. As you indicated, it certainly can be (in some states, not all).

What I'm saying is that just because you might file that quit claim deed, it doesn't transfer ANY responsibility to the Grantee without his signature and/or consent. If you file a quit claim of one of your properties to me (without my signature), I don't need to quit claim it back to you in order to avoid the liabilities that come with the property. All I have to do is ignore the fact that you even filed it.

If you don't believe me, feel free to quit claim something to me and never tell me about it... :-)

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Rick H.

Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes

12y

Gee - I've never seen a transfer deed that requires the Grantee to sign, denoting acceptance, I presume?

Is this a requirement in New Jersey? Recorder's office? Mis-information?

2 Reply

David Krulac

Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes

12y

I'm with @Rick H.

on this, I've only owned hundreds of properties in 7 states but I've never seen a deed with a Grantee signature, only Grantors. To be a valid conveyance a deed must be "signed, sealed and delivered." I don't recall any acceptance, unless that means the same as delivered. Not an attorney.....

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Greg H.Pro Member

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Broker/Flipper · Austin, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 4k+ votes

12y

A deed is not valid without delivery and acceptance . You cannot just deed a property to anyone and it be valid unless the person accepts the deed. Acceptance is usually acknowledged by consideration($$$)

Like others have said, even if he could find someone to take the property it would not release the debt. My understanding is that even if the buyer agreed to assume the debt, he would not be released from liability unless the government bodies agreed to do so

To me, the only option would be to treat it as a short sale. Find a buyer the will pay the highest price and take that number to city to see if they will accept as payment in full. Tough situation ! I wish you the best

2 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@Rick H.

This is interesting and probably should be a different thread.. But yes what happens when unbeknownst to you some one quit claims a property to you? As you state only one person signs the quit claim deed. from my experinces in many states.. some title companies will insure others don't like them.. Like here In Oregon quit claims and you play hell getting title insurance down the line.. But down in MS were I do some work Quit claims are the deed de jour and no issue.

Same with some one who is under water.. does this mean they can just prep a deed In lui and run down and record it... there must be some case law on constructive receipt of said document. but its an interesting thought

But who would have thunk we have so many properties in the good OLE us that are worthless and worse than that beyond worthless.

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Hattie Dizmond

Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Stephen S.:

Or can you all think of any alternative resolution to this issue?

-------------

The one that comes to mind immediately is to be a responsible property owner and take care of your obligations.

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@Hattie Dizmond

that is a nice sentiment.. But I have unfortunately been in the same situation in Detroit.. When these cities go under and 8o to 90 % of the homes are boarded up on your block and the thugs are running wild.. NO one in their right mind would put a dime onto those properties. One property In Detroit its common for the Policed to relocate the elderly or those that have lived on one of these blocks for years that has turned Ghetto. they don't have the man power or resources to protect the innocent.. so they pay to move them.

Its a very sad commentary on the war zones of the us inner cities.. and the poor people that have lived in the neighborhood for 30 years or more only to see it turn and decay to an extent that the government can not protect you anymore.

And then you take the lovely Flippers that buy this crap for nothing and sell it to unsuspecting out of state investors or foreign investors and the cycle of greed and is complete. I wrote and E book for AU investors that got sucked into the inner city and the BAD TK operators.. Its a hit on BP I give out 4 ot 5 an hour and that's because the mods moved it to the market place even though I am not selling it just giving it away... :)

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J ScottPro Member

Moderator

Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes

12y

Originally posted by @Rick H.:

Gee - I've never seen a transfer deed that requires the Grantee to sign, denoting acceptance, I presume?

I was under the impression that some states required quit claim deeds to be signed by both the "buyer" and "seller"...though it's quite possible I'm completely wrong on that...

I do know for certain (based on discussions with my RE attorney) that quit claiming a deed to someone who doesn't acknowledge it (either through consideration or through some reasonable act indicating acceptance of the property) will hold no weight in a court of law. It may be a perfectly valid deed, but it won't have served to transfer ownership without acceptance from the grantee.

As was indicated above, that's the "delivered" part of "signed, sealed and delivered"...

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@J Scott

exactly why In Oregon you play hell getting title insurance on a property that has been quit claimed to you .. AND the transfer was not done through a title company .. IE hand written deed even if it was a warrenty deed....

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Stanley Crawford

Real Estate Agent · Ivor, VA · Member since 2011 · 73 posts · 21 votes

12y

Simple. Find a judgement proof person and quit claim the deed to them. There has to be 50k people in this country that would sign ANYTHING for $100.

1 Reply

Jay HinrichsBusiness Member

Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes

12y

@Stanley Crawford

more like 5 million !!

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Karen MargraveBusiness Member

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Realtor, General Contractor, and Developer · Redding, CA · Member since 2009 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

12y

@Stephen S. Offer to let the local fire department use it for training purposes if they will agree to haul off the debri when finished, then donate the parcel to a local charity.

1 Reply

Darrell Shepherd

Rehabber · Smyrna, GA · Member since 2013 · 864 posts · 510 votes

12y

First off, this is why I hold nothing in my personal name and have more LLC's than houses right now...The "get insurance and be protected" just doesn't cover as much as the asset protection stuff does. You need both if you are doing higher volume. Not preaching, just saying that for the people that might be reading this...

Anyway, I'd check the service requirements on the lawsuit stuff. I don't know NJ law, and have never heard of a municipality pulling this kinda thing, but hey, that's NJ for you. There has to be a duty of the city to serve you with the lawsuit so you have a chance to defend yourself, though. If you reside in another county and get your tax bills mailed to there, I cant imagine a tack and serve at a vacant house is legal notification. I think its lawyer time to check your options. I'd also challenge the valuation of this thing if the taxes are that high. Might wanna check with the state and see what oversight they have over municipalities overstepping their legal authority, too. Again, you have to check the law, but it surprises me they can enforce criminal type action outside of the city for unpaid property taxes. That wouldn't fly here in Georgia.

As stated, any transfer (create an LLC and sell it subject to existing liens...maybe a trust, but technically a land trust is a pass through entity so its technically still your tax unless you get into more sophisticated stuff. With the LLC they'd have to pierce the 'corporate veil', which could probably be done with this scenario, but its still way harder) should keep the future bills off of you, but that's not going to solve the previous ones if you were owner of record when they were assessed.

1 Reply

William Hochstedler

Broker · Logan, UT · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes

12y

Grim, but funny.

What about internationals? Can't you make some sort of deal with a Nigerian exiled royal?

Wm

1 Reply

Stephen S.

OP

Wholesaler · Holiday, FL · Member since 2013 · 571 posts · 221 votes

12y

I am not an attorney - but logically; this idea just has to be patently false. Because if true - what would stop me from changing the ownership into Your name? Or the mayor of Camden's name for that matter?

One day the tax bills for a property you had never heard of would start showing up at your house. Then a summons to court -

But, but, but, Your Honor I had no idea that Stephen put that property in my name!

Too bad - the property is now in Your name and by the way; you now owe us a stack of money - get your checkbook.

Come on - it just cannot be true. <g>

stephen
------------

Originally posted by @Derek W.:

@Stephen S. Can you clarify why you couldn't just record your quit claim deed to someone else and no longer be the owner?

0 Reply

J Benoit

Residential Real Estate Agent, Investor and Mentor · Birmingham, AL · Member since 2013 · 257 posts · 61 votes

12y

If you have quit claimed the house already all you have to do now is record that at the courthouse. The city is working off of public info and that QCD will change the public info to the new buyer.

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How can I un-own a property ?

How can I un-own a property ?

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