Atlanta neighborhood classification question

Atlanta neighborhood classification question

Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes

I'm looking for some benchmarks for figuring out how different areas in intown and near OP Atlanta are classified (A, B, C, D areas).  I bought my personal residence 'across the tracks' in the City of Decatur 20 years ago (in the crack-house era), stay away from Buckhead as much as possible, and invest in Belvedere/East Lake, so my comfort-zone might be a bit skewed off average.  I can't figure out what's B, C, & D, or how to imagine those areas in other cities I might want to invest in.

So, how would you classify Oakhurst/Winnona Park? B? C+?  @Rick Baggenstoss -- what's Midway Woods now?  What was it 7 years ago? @Todd Whiddon -- how about the Northlake neighborhoods?

How is an area like Garden Hills or Peachtree Hills in Buckhead classified?  Are they A areas?  Is there even a classification concept for the MacChateaux on Riverside Drive, or Mt. Paran Rd?

What about Belvedere Park?  I'd live there in a minute, but I'm not everybody.  My plumber said he was nervous about the area, which made me really start to wonder!  Are we in C or D territory here?

And West End/Adair Park?  How about the areas west of GA Tech but south of the newly trendy Westside. It's so spotty now, but I still don't have a feel for how they compare to "war zones."

Any rules of thumb for figuring this out on my own?   Does it translate from city to city?  Thanks!!

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Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y

As to plumber, I loooove my plumber: Toby Jones 770-572-0307. Originally found him on craigslist, but he's fantastic and inexpensive and reliable and he does all my houses.

I think neighborhood categorization can so differ between perspectives.

I moved into Grant Park in '91 and everyone that heard about it, but hadn't been there in a long time was asking whether I wasn't scared and whether I had a gun. The first night I spent in my new old house I woke up with loud gunshots. I was terrified. It was right behind my house and sounded as if a gang war was going on. I got dressed, grabbed my cat and my purse in order to drive to a hotel somewhere. As I came out my front door, I noticed all these people on the street, watching the fireworks from the stadium a few blocks behind my house, because the Braves had just won a game.

Some people thought it was a D neighborhood, I never saw it that way. I proceeded to renovate about a 10 Victorians in the following 15 years in the area. Never had the need to carry a gun. I always loved the neighborhood.

From Grant Park I moved into Adair Park in 2003. I saw the same housing stock, so close to Downtown and saw a neighborhood that was so due to shine. Unfortunately, mortgage scammers took on everything in 30310 and destroyed so many properties. And I did some research and turned a few larger ones over to the FBI - hehe.

Adair Park houses are in the +100K range , very different from West End. But West End has pockets that are gorgeous Victorians and there are pockets with rundown crackhouses, so, I think it varies a lot.

Right across from Adair Park, on the other side of Metropolitan, there's Pittsburgh. Most investors think this is a total war zone. But I started buying there in 2008, because I knew the neighborhood well (had been flipping lots there a few years before, when I lived in Adair Park) and knew that it really wasn't so bad. I got great deals and don't regret buying. I can live of the income now. And I lived in 1 of my houses for 1.5 years in 2011/12 , white, blonde, blue eyed with a red convertible. Never had anything happen to me. I walked all through the neighborhood daily, between my houses. Yes, there was a certain amount of racism against me by some, but I was never attacked or had anything happen to me. Most people are just hardworking people, who try to make ends meet. 

So, I think the best thing to get to know a neighborhood is to farm it. Not to work on 10 areas at the same time and be a jack-of-all-trades, but become a specialist in whatever neighborhood you want to work in. Walk it. Talk to people. Get to know the neighborhood. Introduce yourself. Give out your card with promise of reward for turning you on to a house. And make up your own mind. Perceptions may still be from some years before and the areas may have changed since.

Just my opinion ;-)

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  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Rick Baggenstoss  , so, I agree with most, but Grant Park really needs to be with Inman Park and Candler Park. It's way above East Atlanta, Reynoldstown or Edgewood. The average house in GP is 350K and many are higher.

    And Ormewood Park is much more like Kirkwood or Avondale or East Atlanta - Definitely not a D neighborhood. 

    I also don't agree with Adair Park being a D neighborhood......

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Rick Baggenstoss I'd agree with your assessment with the exception of Inman Park, which is clearly (to me) an A neighborhood now.  You can't find anything less than $500-$600K in Inman now.  

    I think a good play right now if you had access to the financing is to rehab a shuttered house in many of the areas you've named in your C neighborhoods and convert to rentals. Anyone have access to 6-9 month short term rehab funding that converts to a 80% LTV 5/20 note after renovation is completed?

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Michaela G.:

    As to plumber, I loooove my plumber: Toby Jones 770-572-0307. Originally found him on craigslist, but he's fantastic and inexpensive and reliable and he does all my houses.

    I think neighborhood categorization can so differ between perspectives.

    I moved into Grant Park in '91 and everyone that heard about it, but hadn't been there in a long time was asking whether I wasn't scared and whether I had a gun. The first night I spent in my new old house I woke up with loud gunshots. I was terrified. It was right behind my house and sounded as if a gang war was going on. I got dressed, grabbed my cat and my purse in order to drive to a hotel somewhere. As I came out my front door, I noticed all these people on the street, watching the fireworks from the stadium a few blocks behind my house, because the Braves had just won a game.

    Some people thought it was a D neighborhood, I never saw it that way. I proceeded to renovate about a 10 Victorians in the following 15 years in the area. Never had the need to carry a gun. I always loved the neighborhood.

    From Grant Park I moved into Adair Park in 2003. I saw the same housing stock, so close to Downtown and saw a neighborhood that was so due to shine. Unfortunately, mortgage scammers took on everything in 30310 and destroyed so many properties. And I did some research and turned a few larger ones over to the FBI - hehe.

    Adair Park houses are in the +100K range , very different from West End. But West End has pockets that are gorgeous Victorians and there are pockets with rundown crackhouses, so, I think it varies a lot.

    Right across from Adair Park, on the other side of Metropolitan, there's Pittsburgh. Most investors think this is a total war zone. But I started buying there in 2008, because I knew the neighborhood well (had been flipping lots there a few years before, when I lived in Adair Park) and knew that it really wasn't so bad. I got great deals and don't regret buying. I can live of the income now. And I lived in 1 of my houses for 1.5 years in 2011/12 , white, blonde, blue eyed with a red convertible. Never had anything happen to me. I walked all through the neighborhood daily, between my houses. Yes, there was a certain amount of racism against me by some, but I was never attacked or had anything happen to me. Most people are just hardworking people, who try to make ends meet. 

    So, I think the best thing to get to know a neighborhood is to farm it. Not to work on 10 areas at the same time and be a jack-of-all-trades, but become a specialist in whatever neighborhood you want to work in. Walk it. Talk to people. Get to know the neighborhood. Introduce yourself. Give out your card with promise of reward for turning you on to a house. And make up your own mind. Perceptions may still be from some years before and the areas may have changed since.

    Just my opinion ;-)

    That is a great post.  I hope you are going to the meet-up next week.  

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins @Rick Baggenstoss @Michaela G. @Todd Whiddon 

    Thank y'all for the best thread on ITP investing I've ever read!

  • Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    Agreed @Michaela G. and @David Begley .  Inman Park and Grant Park should have been higher. 

    West End and Adair Park are moving up.  They could easily be up higher and will certainly be higher in the near future.  You can't discount their being so close to D class areas.  It's hard for an area like this to really emerge without some halo effect of a nearby neighborhood.  

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Rick Baggenstoss , it actually boggles my mind to have Adair Park, with +$100K houses (sold my house for 200K in 2006) and Pittsburgh just on the other side of Metropolitan with very different values. I've always hoped that Adair Park helps pull Pittsburgh up. Metropolitan is still a very clear demarcation. I also see Adair Park different from West End, which still has pockets, but Adair Park doesn't. And West End and Adair Park don't really run into each other, but also have clearly defined boundaries through rail/Beltline etc.

    @Cal C.  , I live on the Westcoast now, so, won't be at any Atlanta meetings.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Begley:

    @Rachel Leonard @Anna Watkins  As an aside, I'm always interested in following these demographic related conversations as they relate to Atlanta.  External investors and those new to Atlanta tend to view Atlanta through lenses based on their past experiences and aren't used to analyzing as a minority.  Most don't realize that Whites are about 35% of the population, African Americans approximately 60% with a strong Hispanic population.  

     And in Atlanta you'll have to do demographics for each neighborhood independently. Pittsburgh, for example, is about 99% black and Morningside probably has a white majority. 

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Michaela G.:

    @Rick Baggenstoss , it actually boggles my mind to have Adair Park, with +$100K houses (sold my house for 200K in 2006) and Pittsburgh just on the other side of Metropolitan with very different values. I've always hoped that Adair Park helps pull Pittsburgh up. Metropolitan is still a very clear demarcation. I also see Adair Park different from West End, which still has pockets, but Adair Park doesn't. And West End and Adair Park don't really run into each other, but also have clearly defined boundaries through rail/Beltline etc.

    @Cal C.  , I live on the Westcoast now, so, won't be at any Atlanta meetings.

     We do have the world's busiest airport you know?  :)

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    @Cal C.  , Have a problem dog and nobody who can sit him. So, Atlanta won't see me in the foreseeable future ;-)

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Michaela G. That is an issue.  I know what you mean by a road dividing house prices.  We have watched as Irwin street has been doing something similar when we have been driving to Rathbun Steak (mmmm!).  It is obviously going to explode with the Krog street Market (another mmmm!) there now.  

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 646 posts · 392 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins this is a great post. Enjoyed learning about Atlanta neighborhood from seasoned investors.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    One thing that's fascinating is that the whole classification thing is 'in the eye of the beholder', as the disagreements show, especially in the middle rankings. And these are folks (@Rick Baggenstoss @David Begley @Michaela G. ) who have Intown experience and know what they're talking about!  Michaela's point about perceptions being outdated is a good one --  I had great tenants in my East Lake Terrace house for 3.5 years so didn't go over there much.  When they moved and we were spending time working on the house last summer, I drove around and was amazed at the rapid changes in the area just in those 3 years -- my own perceptions of that neighborhood were behind the times.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 112 posts · 15 votes
    11y

    Hi @Anna Watkins & @David Begley. Thanks for the response. We have some ethnically diverse areas in OTP too. My kids go to Peachtree ES in Norcross which is 45% Hispanic so they are definitely in the minority. But I know what you mean when I go out to visit some friends who live in Suwanee. 

    I probably would have preferred to live ITP but my husband's office is in Norcross so we ended up out this way. Before we moved to Atlanta we lived in Singapore and didn't even have a car so I had to get used to not being able to walk to shops etc..

    Thanks to everyone else who contributed to this thread also. I have a friend who lives in Kirkwood and another in Decatur so I'm familiar with those areas but it's good to get local viewpoints on surrounding areas that I don't know as well. Hopefully I'll get to meet some of you at the BP Meet up.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard My children went to Simpson Elementary, an excellent school, when we lived in Norcross.  Peachtree Corners has some nice, established neighborhoods and fairly decent dining/shopping within walking distance.  Not exactly in-town living, but housing is 1/3 to 1/2 the expense as living in a good ITP neighborhood. 

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 112 posts · 80 votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins  This is a great thread - lots of solid local insights

  • Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2015 · 176 posts · 48 votes
    11y

    so glad I found this thread! I'm considering buying a multifamily rental property in Atlanta, and I'm super unfamiliar with the area (i live in Los Angeles).

    What are your guys' thoughts on the numbers in this images? 

    How does the crime, job stability, community, and tenant-demand coincide with each number?

    I'm heavily considering investing near downtown, which is why I ask :) Would love to hear your guys' thoughts 

    Thanks in advance!

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard  -- I hope to talk with you at the lunch next week too.  To be honest, I am thoroughly clueless about OTP areas -- I've only ever lived in Virginia Highland and Decatur, and work in between.  I run around a very small track in my daily goings, and a trip 'outside' is a real trek sometimes!   It's good to have the variety of experiences shared even within a single Metro area.

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y

    @Rohan J.   IMHO, you blocked out the most attractive area in Atlanta as not being considered.  If you draw a rectangle between your boxes 3 and 6, you'll find East Atlanta neighborhoods, which Refin calls the 3rd hottest neighborhood in the country right now:   http://www.bizjournals.com/atlanta/news/2015/01/22...

    If you are wed to your boxes, I would suggest #3 first, but draw a line down the middle and stay on the west side of the line, and then #2 (depending on the block/neighborhood).

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Rachel Leonard:

    Hi @Anna Watkins & @David Begley. Thanks for the response. We have some ethnically diverse areas in OTP too. My kids go to Peachtree ES in Norcross which is 45% Hispanic so they are definitely in the minority. But I know what you mean when I go out to visit some friends who live in Suwanee. 

    I probably would have preferred to live ITP but my husband's office is in Norcross so we ended up out this way. Before we moved to Atlanta we lived in Singapore and didn't even have a car so I had to get used to not being able to walk to shops etc..

    Thanks to everyone else who contributed to this thread also. I have a friend who lives in Kirkwood and another in Decatur so I'm familiar with those areas but it's good to get local viewpoints on surrounding areas that I don't know as well. Hopefully I'll get to meet some of you at the BP Meet up.

     I go to the Jay Bird Alley Starbucks a couple of times a week when it is open.  If you see a guy looking at his cell phone with a Guinness or STL cardinals hat that is probably me, so just say hello.  There is a Pommie woman that goes there daily so we can't bash them.   :)

    BTW that is actually Peachtree Corners, not Norcross.  

  • Investor · Peachtree Corners, GA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @David Begley:

    @Rachel Leonard My children went to Simpson Elementary, an excellent school, when we lived in Norcross.  Peachtree Corners has some nice, established neighborhoods and fairly decent dining/shopping within walking distance.  Not exactly in-town living, but housing is 1/3 to 1/2 the expense as living in a good ITP neighborhood. 

     I'm curious what you think is decent dining in Peachtree Corners? 

  • Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 415 posts · 299 votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Cal C.:
    Originally posted by @David Begley:

    @Rachel Leonard My children went to Simpson Elementary, an excellent school, when we lived in Norcross.  Peachtree Corners has some nice, established neighborhoods and fairly decent dining/shopping within walking distance.  Not exactly in-town living, but housing is 1/3 to 1/2 the expense as living in a good ITP neighborhood. 

     I'm curious what you think is decent dining in Peachtree Corners? 

     I said decent, not fine dining! lol  J Alexanders isn't bad; or Paizanos and Grace or Ted's in The Forum.  There is also a sushi place there that I heard wasn't too bad.  I haven't lived there since 2006.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Southeast · Member since 2014 · 175 posts · 63 votes
    11y

    @Rachel Leonard

    We are a full service Property Management Company, Real Estate Brokerage and Turn-Key Provider in Birmingham, AL. I'd love to speak with you about your investing goals. We have a large portfolio on hand and it's growing daily. Let me know how we can help.

  • Wholesaler · Marietta, GA · Member since 2014 · 78 posts · 10 votes
    11y

    Great post, everyone! From someone who lives OTP (Cobb Cty) this has been very helpful. I used to be with a company that built houses off of Cascade ITP, and that subdivision almost put us out of business!  Dealing with Atlanta building inspectors = NOT fun!

  • Wholesaler · FL · Member since 2013 · 120 posts · 40 votes
    11y
    Great thread everyone. Thanks Anna Watkins for getting it going.
  • Kevin PolitePro Member
    Investor · Decatur Atlanta, GA · Member since 2011 · 610 posts · 232 votes
    11y

    Good thread here. I'll comment on "transitional' class C/lower B in Atlanta. What I've found is that many investors will purchase in these neighborhoods and wait for appreciation and rent to class D/lower C tenants, when if you put a little more money you'll find better tenants who like living in these areas because they are close to more desirable areas with restaurants/etc, but can't afford those areas. Many don't have good schools, but most of the renters and buyers don't have kids yet or are single or gay, so that isn't so much of an issue for them.  Along with better tenants you get higher rent. Now this is a totally different animal than suburbs where it's easy to compare House A with House B, C & D.

    You'll have a neighborhood with $500k and $100k on the SAME block. I think it's difficult to purchase in these areas, but can be very profitable.

    I have a home in East Atlanta all of my tenants have been under 32 with good jobs (current one works at Delta in IT) and they love living in this area. On the otherhand I had a someone coming from Alpharetta who once they got near the n'hood called and made an excuse why they couldn't come. Perception of crime is as much of a factor as crime itself.

    Stay out of Belevedere Plaza 'cause I want at least 2-3 more homes there and the prices have already risen about 20-30% on investor grade homes in the last couple of years.

    The time to buy in transitional homes are when they are exactly that, but you must be very careful because for instance off Glenwood/Candler there is one street even I was a little nervous, but go 2 blocks and you have $400k homes. I think that's why it's so fun to invest in these areas.  Plus the neighbors will love you and watch out for your homes if they see you are improving their neighborhood. I give them my number and encourage them to call if they see anything during or after renovations.

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