Atlanta neighborhood classification question

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Atlanta neighborhood classification question

Anna Watkins
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes

I'm looking for some benchmarks for figuring out how different areas in intown and near OP Atlanta are classified (A, B, C, D areas).  I bought my personal residence 'across the tracks' in the City of Decatur 20 years ago (in the crack-house era), stay away from Buckhead as much as possible, and invest in Belvedere/East Lake, so my comfort-zone might be a bit skewed off average.  I can't figure out what's B, C, & D, or how to imagine those areas in other cities I might want to invest in.

So, how would you classify Oakhurst/Winnona Park? B? C+?  @Rick Baggenstoss -- what's Midway Woods now?  What was it 7 years ago? @Todd Whiddon -- how about the Northlake neighborhoods?

How is an area like Garden Hills or Peachtree Hills in Buckhead classified?  Are they A areas?  Is there even a classification concept for the MacChateaux on Riverside Drive, or Mt. Paran Rd?

What about Belvedere Park?  I'd live there in a minute, but I'm not everybody.  My plumber said he was nervous about the area, which made me really start to wonder!  Are we in C or D territory here?

And West End/Adair Park?  How about the areas west of GA Tech but south of the newly trendy Westside. It's so spotty now, but I still don't have a feel for how they compare to "war zones."

Any rules of thumb for figuring this out on my own?   Does it translate from city to city?  Thanks!!

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Michaela G.
Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
11y

As to plumber, I loooove my plumber: Toby Jones 770-572-0307. Originally found him on craigslist, but he's fantastic and inexpensive and reliable and he does all my houses.

I think neighborhood categorization can so differ between perspectives.

I moved into Grant Park in '91 and everyone that heard about it, but hadn't been there in a long time was asking whether I wasn't scared and whether I had a gun. The first night I spent in my new old house I woke up with loud gunshots. I was terrified. It was right behind my house and sounded as if a gang war was going on. I got dressed, grabbed my cat and my purse in order to drive to a hotel somewhere. As I came out my front door, I noticed all these people on the street, watching the fireworks from the stadium a few blocks behind my house, because the Braves had just won a game.

Some people thought it was a D neighborhood, I never saw it that way. I proceeded to renovate about a 10 Victorians in the following 15 years in the area. Never had the need to carry a gun. I always loved the neighborhood.

From Grant Park I moved into Adair Park in 2003. I saw the same housing stock, so close to Downtown and saw a neighborhood that was so due to shine. Unfortunately, mortgage scammers took on everything in 30310 and destroyed so many properties. And I did some research and turned a few larger ones over to the FBI - hehe.

Adair Park houses are in the +100K range , very different from West End. But West End has pockets that are gorgeous Victorians and there are pockets with rundown crackhouses, so, I think it varies a lot.

Right across from Adair Park, on the other side of Metropolitan, there's Pittsburgh. Most investors think this is a total war zone. But I started buying there in 2008, because I knew the neighborhood well (had been flipping lots there a few years before, when I lived in Adair Park) and knew that it really wasn't so bad. I got great deals and don't regret buying. I can live of the income now. And I lived in 1 of my houses for 1.5 years in 2011/12 , white, blonde, blue eyed with a red convertible. Never had anything happen to me. I walked all through the neighborhood daily, between my houses. Yes, there was a certain amount of racism against me by some, but I was never attacked or had anything happen to me. Most people are just hardworking people, who try to make ends meet. 

So, I think the best thing to get to know a neighborhood is to farm it. Not to work on 10 areas at the same time and be a jack-of-all-trades, but become a specialist in whatever neighborhood you want to work in. Walk it. Talk to people. Get to know the neighborhood. Introduce yourself. Give out your card with promise of reward for turning you on to a house. And make up your own mind. Perceptions may still be from some years before and the areas may have changed since.

Just my opinion ;-)

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  • Rick Baggenstoss
    Developer · Decatur, GA · Member since 2011 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    11y

    @Anna Watkins  Yes, I still buy in 30032.  Prices are continuing to recover, but they are far from recovered in this area.  Lots of vacants and poorly cared for houses.  I think we'll continue to see opportunities to buy low.  Retail buyer demand is still very slow in this area.  

    30310 is heating up as well.  Adair Park and West End have become very competitive.  However, there are plenty of distressed properties in the area.  Years of supply still out there.  It will be interesting to see how the completed Beltline will impact the area.  

    Hard to gauge whether demand will even approach O4W, Reynoldstown areas.  

    1Reply
  • Vincent Crane
    Realtor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 693 posts · 357 votes
    11y

    What type of appreciation impact do you guys see the beltline having and in what areas?

    0Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y
    Originally posted by @Vincent Crane:

    What type of appreciation impact do you guys see the beltline having and in what areas?

     I think at this time it's all sort of a controlled gamble. With that I mean that I buy low enough that it can't go anywhere but up, but we don't know how far up. 

    But I think it's more than just the completed beltline. I think the surrounding parks, that are already being built will have a big influence. Who doesn't like to live close to a park - whether it's jogging or walking your dog or just socializing with others. ?

    Also, for Pittsburgh, a lot will depend on what's going to be built on the big tract, that's owned by Annie E. Casey foundation.

    1Reply
  • Michael Cortazzo
    Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 1 vote
    11y
    Originally posted by @Jeremy Pace:

    It's all about the neighborhood, there are several for sale under $10k right now.

     Jeremy, what neighborhood(s) in Pittsburgh would you say generally has these low cost duplexes, and what is the best website to use to keep up with and search for these properties? Appreciate your input.

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    11y

    This post is about Atlanta Real Estate. Atlanta has an intown neighborhood, called Pittsburgh. This is not about Pittsburgh, PA

    1Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Ok, now that I closed, I can give out more particulars. 

    Asking price was 30K

    I offered 10K cash total, 10K earnest money, as is, where is, no contingencies

    They countered with 20K and were willing to do some owner financing

    I gave them a triple simultaneous counter:

    - 20K, 100% owner financing at 8%, based on 30 year amortization, 5 year balloon

    - 15K, 5k down, 10K owner financed, 10%, 30 yr ammort. , 5 year balloon

    - 12K cash

    They gave me 2 counters:

    - 20K, 10K down and 10 financed at 10%, 5 year balloon

    - 15K cash

    I took 15K cash, which I initially was hoping for anyway.

    2Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Some things are happening in Pittsburgh. This one just went contingent today: Asking is 150K. The really dolled up ones seem to be put under contract. I believe the support that Wells Fargo is giving is helping home buyers. Don't know whether that's going to pull everything up quickly or still longer process, but I've seen quite a few listings above 100K recently. 

    https://www.redfin.com/GA/Atlanta/505-Mary-St-SW-30310/home/24860639?utm_source=myredfin&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=instant24_listings_update&riftinfo=ZXY9ZW1haWwmbD01NzAwJnA9bGlzdGluZ191cGRhdGVzX2luc3RhbnRfMjQmdHM9MTQ0NDM4MTYxOTk0OCZhPWNsaWNrJnM9c2F2ZWRfc2VhcmNoJnQ9dmlld19kZXRhaWxzJmVtYWlsX2lkPTM3NjU3Ni01NzAwJnVwZGF0ZV90eXBlPTUmc2F2ZWRfc2VhcmNoX2lkPTczOTMxNzgmbGlzdGluZ19pZD01MDgyNTYxMiZwb3NpdGlvbl9udW1iZXI9MA==&reinfo=ZXhwSWQ9OTI3NjQxJmV4cEluc3RhbmNlSWQ9Mzc2NTc2NTcwMCZjYXRlZ29yeT1lbWFpbC5saXN0aW5nYWxlcnRzJmNvaG9ydElkPUNvbnRyb2wmdGFyZ2V0PWhvbWUuZGV0YWlscyZsb2dpbklkPTU3MDA=

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  • Patricia Joseph
    Realtor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 97 posts · 31 votes
    10y

    Wow! For a newbie looking to invest in properties in Intown Atlanta, this was a very eye-opening and educational thread. @Rick Baggenstoss Thanks for the list of area rankings. I'm currently looking at properties in the Grant Park area. The house in that picture has a lot of character for $45k. In what area is that house located? @Todd Whiddon Which areas are affected most by stolen ACs? I guess this is something to consider when buying in certain areas.

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Patricia Joseph 

    Grant Park being my stomping ground, it would not be something I would suggest for someone new to real estate. In fact, those Victorians are being bypassed by many experienced rehabbers, because it's very different from doing a basic, newer house. 

    You're dealing with +100 year old houses. Sure, the courthouse says they're built in 1920, but that's really the year the Atlanta court house burnt down and they had to start over and thus everything that was standing at the time they put as 1920. They're mostly built between late 1800's and 1905.

    There is no basic fix and flip. They all need major work. Have never done a Victorian there without having had to put in at least 50K. The most was 125K.

    The market is on the high end, with houses being 300-400K. Needs a lot of cash and you won't find many HML that will lend that kind of cash to a newbie.

    Whatever mistakes you make will be much more costly than in a 30-40K house. You need a big cushion in your savings account.

    You don't know what you're getting until you own. I've had 10 roofs on one. There is no insulation in the walls, but plaster and lathe. If you have too many cracks and holes in the walls, the building inspector will tell you to gut the house, because the integrity of the wall has been compromised. If that happens on the ceiling, he will, after you took down the plaster, say that since the ceiling is now open and the roof system is visible, you will have to bring the roof system to current code. That means having to cross brace every roof joist, that has stood 100 years without a problem. 

    These houses have gone through multiple owners and often repairs were done on a whim and you may have to redo things, that you thought had been fixed. And once you tear things open, you'll find more surprises. 

    All of these houses have had termite infestation at some point, either dead or still live. So, expect termite damage  in every house, even if it looks fine on first glance. 

    Grant Park is a Historic District and that requires you to follow certain guidelines, if you renovate. 

    If you're planning on wholesaling, you will have a smaller pool of buyers, because of the above mentioned specifics to a Historic Home. 

    So, my suggestion would be to start off with a lower priced, newer neighborhood

    1Reply
  • Patricia Joseph
    Realtor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 97 posts · 31 votes
    10y

    Thank you @Michaela G. for the advice and suggestions. It's great to have insight from a seasoned investor. I wish I had the risk and tolerance level to rehab and flip houses, but I don't. My husband and I are looking to purchase tenant-occupied properties, for passive income. At this point in our lives, we're not looking for more stress, but rather more cash flow to enjoy in retirement. You mentioned lower-priced, newer neighborhoods; which areas would you suggest we look at?

    0Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Patricia Joseph , you're in Snellville, so, why not look in your suburbs? The houses there are newer and won't need as many repairs and they're much easier for you to get to than intown Atlanta. Find a neighborhood that you want to have rental property in and farm it. Get to know everything. Go to open houses on Sundays, to see what's offered for which price range. Look for vacancies and find and approach those owners.

    1Reply
  • Patricia Joseph
    Realtor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 97 posts · 31 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G. - great suggestion! I would hate to buy a property and spend most of our cash flow on repairs. So, this is something we will really need to think about as we get closer to buying. I like Gwinnett County. I've seen many areas grow to become much more culturally diverse.

    0Reply
  • Chen Chang
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G. I have SFRs in West End, Westview, Beecher Donnelly, Oakland City, and Cascade Heights.  All were bought between 2008 and 2010.  I got burned out working 60+ hour weeks at my fulltime job and getting properties ready for rent on the side and am finally getting back into buying again.  I want to pick up another handful of properties before the numbers stop making sense in the area.  I have found inventory slim in my old territory and have therefore expanded out.  Just landed a deal in East Point but would still prefer to acquire properties in 30310 where I live.

    My realtor is suggesting I take another look at Pittsburgh.  Last time I drove through there was in 2010 and it looked very, very, very rough to me.  Still boggles my mind that you were walking through that neighborhood alone.  As you mentioned, homes have recently started listing AND selling for $100k+ which is a huge surprise to me.  I tried to remain open minded so I did some research and found this video promoting the neighborhood:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEMYR6HjPW0

    However, just 20 seconds into the video, a guy is talking about how much he loves living in his new house there and I see the all too familiar telltale signs of crime around the back entrance of his home where it looks like the door jamb was just replaced, the wall was just freshly mudded and a force entry deterrent was newly installed.

    Given that, the recent listing and selling prices in Pittsburgh seem outrageous to me.  I understand that the Beltline is coming and Annie E Casey is supposed to bring development but that seems like pure speculation at this point.  As you stated in a post, you can't count on getting tenants because even section 8 won't approve the homes there due to neighborhood condition.

    Am I missing something about Pittsburgh?  Why are homes listing AND selling for these prices?

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Chen Chang , I don't know any more than what I wrote. I do know that Annie E. Casey was in discussions with 2 developers in April, deciding on who's going to develop the property. I have not been able to find any announcement on the final selection and what exactly is going to happen there, but they're working on it. I'm willing to speculate and build on that hope ;-)

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  • Chen Chang
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G.

    Ok, so I guess your strategy is to just buy properties at land value and are not planning on putting anything more into them while you wait.

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Chen Chang , I have a couple of assemblages going, which are properties next to each other. The total will be worth more than the sum of its parts. 

    I suspect that the recent high sales were sold by Annie E. Casey foundation, who had bought a bunch of houses, together with the Pittsburgh community association. They got large government grants to renovate them. And in conjunction with Wells Fargo, who gives large grants to new buyers, they likely converted potential renters into buyers, by selling them on the payments per month part.

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  • Chen Chang
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2015 · 4 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G. Thanks for the info.  Good idea on the assemblages since the lots there tend to be on the small side.  Will be interested to see how this strategy works out.

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Chen Chang , it's not actually about the small size of the lots. 40' is conforming road frontage for a lot. And anything that is presently a lot can be built upon, even if it's 25' road frontage. Those have setbacks of 2' on either side and have some nice 21' wide houses. But getting 5 or 6 lots next to each other, that will allow for better and higher purpose, due to the size. And those are much rarer than single lots and will be more in demand. But it also depends on the location.

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  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G.  - do you have any reservations about gentrification and pricing longtime residents out of the neighborhood?  There are lots of "No Displacement" signs in yards in Pittsburgh.   I know that I was part of the early wave in Oakhurst (in 1996) that's led to the $700k asking prices on gigantic new construction here now and a major whitification of the neighborhood.  My neighbors from then have all been pushed out by the tax hikes and/or developer lures.  I'd like to somehow be a part of renovation and renewal without displacing the current homeowners.  Any thoughts on that?  Does the AECF have a plan?

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Anna Watkins

    Yes and no. 

    I believe that for everything we want to get, we'll have to be willing to give something up. But many people want to get and not give. 

    If the 20K house stayed 20K forever, what were to happen, if the roof needed to be replaced, because of some major leak? Prices of Roof work didn't stay the same. 

    So, with the increase of value of the neighborhood, the homeowner would now be able to maybe get a loan to get the roof fixed. They'd have enough value to leave something to their children. They could get a reverse mortgage and have extra income and live the same way they always have, but not having to worry about money.

    The issue is more complex than 'they're getting priced out of the market'. They don't have to . The increase in value gives them options and benefits. Would they rather be in a crime-ridden neighborhood, which many low-income neighborhoods are? 

    There will always be change. We can't stop that. But we can look at the benefits that those changes bring us, instead of complaining that things aren't the way they used to.

    1Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    10y

    @Michaela G. -- I'm with you, I do understand it's more complex that maybe my first post reflected.  Class and race, and the often-related education and financial sophistication levels, are huge variables in the neighborhood revival equation.

    Yes, if housing appreciates, homeowners can sell for a huge profit (like my down my street who bought her house in the 60s for $11,000 and sold in 2012 for $210k -- but she had to move, in her 70s, to realize the profit). The problem with loans is that you have to have the reliable monthly income to pay it back, on top of the other expenses you have. Reverse mortgages are a fairly sophisticated financial transaction that goes against the grain for many folks who bought houses as investments -- it leaves nothing to hand down to your kids.   And if you've managed the upkeep of your house just fine over the years, but the taxes have tripled, well, nuff said.

    I'm more thinking about the revitalization of all the boarded-up scary places in the neighborhood, where nobody lives and lower the overall neighborhood vibe.

    What I'm specifically wondering is if it's possible to buy a vacant house in Pittsburgh or Mechanicsville, restore it to its original attractive and decent livable-though-perhaps-small condition, and sell it under some sort of neighborhood program to a person who maybe rents there now, or who used to live there, or would like to live there who's not a middle-class white yuppie (and I totally include myself in this category), and make a small profit ($10,000 maybe, for a 2-4 month flip).

    And a more philosophical question -- is it possible to revitalize a neighborhood without changing it (from the way it was before decline)?

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  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Anna Watkins , the problem with keeping the same people in Pittsburgh - which they're working hard on right now - is that those same people were part of the decline, by not acting or standing up to drug dealers or pimps or gangs, until they're in control of the neighborhood. 

    And converting those renters , who have gotten used to the crime, even when they become owners, they won't speak up. It's the crime that will hold a neighborhood like pittsburgh back. Nobody sees anything or anyone. The minute a house is vacant, they come in and tear everything out. It's the same people and they're being protected by the present residents. They may not think of it as protecting, but by not saying anything and not speaking to the police, they are doing just that. 

    Last week I had a resident get broken in and everything taken. The church behind the house has a video and the pastor knows they guys who did it, but he refuses to give names, because he doesn't want to make waves or have it backfire on him.

    I believe for a neighborhood to change for the better, it takes new blood, people that come from the outside and who are going to be houseproud and who want to protect this new investment and who are looking at it with new eyes.

    I really believe that Pittsburgh has a ton of potential, because of location (2 miles south of Downtown, right on 75/85 and 20, right next to the Beltline, but that it will only be able to get better with major change, like the Beltline and property values going up, because people move in and speak up.

    1Reply
  • Anna Watkins
    OP
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2014 · 389 posts · 250 votes
    10y

    Fair enough -- thanks for all the great experiences and insights you have and share.  Nothing's ever easy or straightforward when it comes to change.

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  • Heather W.
    Rental Property Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 128 posts · 64 votes
    10y

    The local news just did a piece on Pittsburgh and a $500/m incentive for 3 years for City of Atlanta police officers to live in the area and attend the neighborhood meetings. 

    http://m.wsbtv.com/videos/news/organizations-offer...

    2Reply
  • Michaela G.
    Investor · Atlanta, GA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Thank you, Heather, that's good news. I hope some police officers take them on, because it will be a challenge, but it could really help the neighborhood.

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