Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
New Water Heater Guidelines
National Appliance Energy Conservation Act (NAECA) -
On April 16th, 2015 the NAECA will require all manufacturers to make new water heaters to comply with the new standards. The change is not a big deal because this requirement has been coming for some time and manufacturers are already making water heaters to comply with the new standards. Due to energy requirements, water heaters 55 gallons and under will grow in size due to increased insulation and will need approximately 3 more inches side to side and 3 inches taller install height. The concern is replacing water heaters in tight locations, the openings may not be big enough to install a new water heater. Other options are to install a smaller capacity water heater. Or, install the water heater in a new location. Standard water heaters can be sold and installed after April 16th, 2015, but only as supplies last.
Rental Property Investor · Liberty Hill, TX · Member since 2014 · 285 posts · 166 votes
11y
Tankless will not be less expensive. You still need space, ventilation and a very expensive stainless triple wall vent pipe. The last one I installed the vent pipe alone was more than twice the cost of a new standard hot water heater. They also require significant maintenance if you follow directions.
Unless you install a very high end unit (hint HD doesn't sell them) your tenants will be very unhappy. You need at least 8-10 gallons per minute capacity for a family. If it is for a single person even a cheap one will work .
Scottsdale, AZ · Member since 2014 · 659 posts · 536 votes
11y
This will be tough to deal with. As it is, I have had to take off door jambs to fit them into places. If you have to go with a non-standard size, the price will go up significantly.
Rental Property Investor · Liberty Hill, TX · Member since 2014 · 285 posts · 166 votes
11y
Tankless will not be less expensive. You still need space, ventilation and a very expensive stainless triple wall vent pipe. The last one I installed the vent pipe alone was more than twice the cost of a new standard hot water heater. They also require significant maintenance if you follow directions.
Unless you install a very high end unit (hint HD doesn't sell them) your tenants will be very unhappy. You need at least 8-10 gallons per minute capacity for a family. If it is for a single person even a cheap one will work .
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
11y
Martin, my post was more of a joke than anything. That said, and since you brought it up, I agree that for rentals, it makes little to no financial sense. Then again, who said this was about rentals? For flips, it is a good up sell item in areas where it makes sense and often, the cost to install is more than made up in the resale value in upper end areas. The space it saves, the energy costs it saves, and the multiple installation locations all offer some great benefits. Again, for a rental unit, I would likely not install it unless it made financial sense or was the only option for some reason (repurpose the space of the old water heater).
Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
11y
This has been coming since 2010. The storage tanks we use have been meeting these performance measures for years now.
The standard mandates an improvement in the stand-by losses / energy efficiency factor of the tanks. This alone does not require an increase in the dimensions of storage tanks; that is a factor of the type of insulation being used. If a manufacturer is using a high density insulation (i.e. closed cell foam or vacuum insulated panels), they are likely meeting/exceeding the requirements already. If a lower density insulation is used (i.e. fibreglass batt), then the thickness of the storage tanks walls will need to increase.
We use a common solar thermal storage tank (~100usg) at a 6-unit property with each unit having it's own in-line water heater (electric at that) to provide the final lift. In the warmer months, the in-line heaters usually do not need to fire. In the dead of winter, the source water temperature is low enough that the solar thermal frequently does not lift the water temperature enough for consumption (usually 10-20 degrees low) under heavy load.
That post was not aimed at you. Sorry if it came across that way. I have had a couple of buyers ask me to take out new tankless and install standard units. They had bad experiences with older less efficient models and just hated them.
I think you are correct about their being more appropriate in upper value homes and areas with a "green" populace. I certainly wouldn't put them in a rental unless forced.
Residential Real Estate Broker · Chicago Suburbs, IL · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 594 votes
11y
I just replaced one in a rental unit, and a large one in my personal residence, specifically due to the EPA regulation change. The 40 gallon unit in the rental had no room to spare so it could not accommodate anything bigger. It was an 11 yr old tank anyway and now I have a drip pan under it plumbed to the drain. The one in our personal residence was 12 yrs old right in the center of the house, also got a pan put under that while we were at it. I was able to get a deal replacing multiple units at the same time.
Investor · Marion, IA · Member since 2010 · 177 posts · 117 votes
11y
I had a 75 gallon gas water heater go out last week. The hot stack cost $850 at Menards. The newer water heater is a power vent unit ($1300) that requires PVC vents to the roof/wall and a 115VAC outlet for the blower. The cost with install will probably be double the old unit.
If you have an old water heater now is the time to replace it while the hot stack are still available!
I had a 75 gallon gas water heater go out last week. The hot stack cost $850 at Menards. The newer water heater is a power vent unit ($1300) that requires PVC vents to the roof/wall and a 115VAC outlet for the blower. The cost with install will probably be double the old unit.
If you have an old water heater now is the time to replace it while the hot stack are still available!
Sounds like your new heater is direct vent - pulls its air from outside rather than from the conditioned space. Is it also a condensing unit? If so, it will considerably more efficient than an older draft/convectional flue heater and will not suck warm air from the conditioned space for combustion. A modern, power-vented, condensing water heater is 20% more efficient than an older draft/convectional flue water heater.
The upfront sticker price is normally <10% of the lifetime operating costs ... if you compare an older convectional flue gas water heater (EFT 0.60 - 0.75) to a new sealed-combustion, direct vented, condensing water heater (EFT 0.85 - 0.90), the newer should more than make up for the sticker difference over its life.
Mechanicsburg, PA · Member since 2013 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
11y
A real estate investor I know with 50 units ( sfh with own HWH) is buying 10 old reg hot water heaters and storing for future use.
Last year in my experience we replaced 10% of our HWH due to failure.
I've had a power vent HWH that only lasted 6 years, and a hot stack last as long as 35 years. one of the ones I replaced last year wa a hot stack that was only 12 years.
I had a 75 gallon gas water heater go out last week. The hot stack cost $850 at Menards. The newer water heater is a power vent unit ($1300) that requires PVC vents to the roof/wall and a 115VAC outlet for the blower. The cost with install will probably be double the old unit.
If you have an old water heater now is the time to replace it while the hot stack are still available!
Sounds like your new heater is direct vent - pulls its air from outside rather than from the conditioned space. Is it also a condensing unit? If so, it will considerably more efficient than an older draft/convectional flue heater and will not suck warm air from the conditioned space for combustion. A modern, power-vented, condensing water heater is 20% more efficient than an older draft/convectional flue water heater.
The upfront sticker price is normally <10% of the lifetime operating costs ... if you compare an older convectional flue gas water heater (EFT 0.60 - 0.75) to a new sealed-combustion, direct vented, condensing water heater (EFT 0.85 - 0.90), the newer should more than make up for the sticker difference over its life.
Yes the new heater is power vent. I realize it saves money over the lifetime, but my monthly gas bills are about $30, $10 of which is a service charge. It will take many years to recoup the extra $700 for the power vent.
Have you taken any usage measurements on the existing tank? $20/mth in gas sounds cheap for an older style 75usg natural gas storage heater ... perhaps you could get away with a 60usg tank and save a little upfront money and have lower standby losses.
Have you taken any usage measurements on the existing tank? $20/mth in gas sounds cheap for an older style 75usg natural gas storage heater ... perhaps you could get away with a 60usg tank and save a little upfront money and have lower standby losses.
That's what I was wondering too! My concern is that that it would run low during peak demand. It's a 4 plex so there could be 4 people in the bathroom at once, but not likely. Thoughts?
Have you taken any usage measurements on the existing tank? $20/mth in gas sounds cheap for an older style 75usg natural gas storage heater ... perhaps you could get away with a 60usg tank and save a little upfront money and have lower standby losses.
That's what I was wondering too! My concern is that that it would run low during peak demand. It's a 4 plex so there could be 4 people in the bathroom at once, but not likely. Thoughts?
Mike:
4 x 1-bdrm, 4 x 2-bdrm ?
A 60 usg tank is typically good for 5 - 8 persons. We use a 60usg tank in our student houses and duplexes (5 - 9 students) ... the building with 9 do occasionally exceed the recovery of the 60usg tank (but it is electric, not gas ... if it were gas, we would never have that issue).
Note: we also use low-flow (1.5usg/minute) shower heads.
Investor · Marion, IA · Member since 2010 · 177 posts · 117 votes
11y
Thanks for the info Roy! It's (4) two bedrooms, but they are small units. The tenant mix is 1 person, 2 people, 3 people, 3 people. So there are 9 people total, but I know they don't use the shower all at once. There are dishwashers in each unit and a common washing machine which might be a factor too. The 60 gallon sounds like a good solution.