Property management advice please

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Property management advice please

Tom V.
IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes

So, I don't own any investment properties yet, but since I'm already very busy with my main business I'm considering using property management right from the start. The metro area I'm investing in is located in Iowa, and only has around 100,000 people, so the property management options are pretty limited.

There is one large realty company here that has a property management division. This realty company is the biggest in the area, and probably has 75% of all real estate listings for the area, both residential and commercial. I've seen their ads on Craigslist advertising properties for rent, and the ads look very professional with good photos.

I sent an initial inquiry email to the head of the division and also to his admin assistant (on Friday morning before Memorial day weekend). I got replies back from both of them within 2 hrs. The chief said he was out of the office until next week, but he would have the admin assist get me the info I requested, which she did. At this point I was very impressed with the speedy service.

Below the dotted line is the info that I received regarding how they operate. Obviously there are a lot of other more specific questions that need to be asked yet ( I have a list), but I'm looking for some feedback on whether the rates, fees, and policies seem to be in line with industry standards.

To my knowledge, it all looks pretty reasonable to me, but I'd love for some of you real estate wizards to have a look and confirm it. Thanks!!

--------------------------------------------

Thomas,

Our responses to your inquiry are below, and I have also attached a blank Residential Management Agreement for your review.

1. Rate and fee schedule / pricing model. We usually charge 10% of rents, and a one time additional 25% the first full month a new tenant is placed for all the screenings, calls, showings, etc. In addition, if the tenant signs a year lease extension, we charge a 10% fee for that. We pay the residential owners (by direct deposit is preferred) and send reports generally by the 15th of each month, provided all tenants have paid rents and there are no outstanding maintenance or utility bills. We pay all remaining residential and commercial owners at the end of the month, again, provided the tenants have paid and there are no outstanding bills. All reports are available on the Owner Portal to go back and review and print at any time.

2. Tenant screening processes. We use a screening service through our software that provides a criminal, rental/evictions and financial/collections background check. All prospective tenants are screened prior to showing property, and the applicant pays for that cost.

3. Property maintenance and repairs processes. We have a portal that tenants can report maintenance issues, or they can call us. We have someone on call 24/7 for after hours repairs, and that person gets ahold of Beau with any questions or approvals. We have a number of contractors and vendors available who provide timely repairs. We do charge a 7% upcharge for arranging and overseeing all the repairs needed and paying the vendors. Beau also does inspections two times per year so that anything not reported by the tenants can be addressed.

4. Rent collection and owner payment processes. We have online, in person, by mail, cash, money order or check payment receipts. If they bounce, they are required to pay by money order, cash or cashier’s check, not online. If they bounce more than once, they are not allowed to pay online.

5. Tenant turnover and eviction processes. We serve a 3 day notice on all tenants that are not paid by the 8th of the month. We do not accept ANY funds unless it is IN FULL and then file the FED the 8th day after if they have not paid in full. Beau goes to court on the FED hearing.

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Kevin FoxPro Member
Real Estate Agent · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 635 votes
10y

Hey @Tom V.

Every company/market will be slightly different, but my team and I manage slightly over 400 properties here in San Diego and our one and only fee is 8% of collected rents.

We aren't making money unless the rents are rolling in (aligning incentives), but more importantly we aren't incentivized to incur costs, increase turnover, or anything else of the sort at the expense of our clients.

Personally, I think this is the only acceptable fee structure for management. 

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joseph S.:
    Originally posted by @Tom V.:

    Hmmm this seems to imply that the responses are 50/50. In reality you have a lot of folks (including 1 PM himself!) who are telling you the fees are too high, and 2 PMs who seem to be just trying to protect their industry telling you that the prices seems fair.

    Both of those 2 PMs basic argument is that all you should care about is their service and then the price will be worth it. Doesn't this strike you as a bit odd? I don't know of many industries where people are encouraged to ignore price.

    As others have pointed out, more alarming to me than the total dollar amount you would pay this company is the incentive system that it sets up. The misalignment of incentives (e.g., the company being rewarded financially for finding the most expensive repair option) is what is most worrisome, though the total amount paid is too high as well.

     Hi Joseph,

    Thanks for responding. You're right, the majority opinion in this thread says the fees are too high, and I agree. I'm going to make some calls to the two smaller PM operations in the area and see what they have to say. I agree with you too, that the whole way the fee structure is set up results in a misalignment of incentives.

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  • Patrick LiskaPro Member
    Investor · Verona, NJ · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 832 votes
    10y

    Tom,

    you inspired me to post a blog, this is for you :

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/8121/50251-pro...

    1Reply
  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Patrick Liska:

    Tom,

    you inspired me to post a blog, this is for you :

    https://www.biggerpockets.com/blogs/8121/50251-pro...

    Fantastic, thanks for posting that Patrick! That information added several more questions to my already long list of line items that would need to be clarified with a PM company.

    Awesome, thank you!

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  • Paul Hextell
    Real Estate Investor · DeBary, FL · Member since 2011 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Tom,  I know you are busy with your "other business" but consider that you may be overestimating how time consuming it is to manage rentals on a monthly basis.  I purchased several duplexes a few years ago and have had them renovated and rented while also working a full-time job.   While I screened and placed my first few tenants myself I quickly realized that I really disliked that aspect of the business.  I wasn't all that good at it and I found it very time-consuming.  So, I stopped doing that and began contracting out tenant placement to a local realtor/PM, keeping the day to day management to myself. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well this has worked out for me.  My time investment is truly minimal and easily worth the monthly 10% standard PM charge.  Basically, all you need is a smart phone and the numbers of persons to call or text.  I say this because whatever issue that comes up can be resolved quite easily contacting the: plumber, electrician, handyman, painter, roofer, etc.  You mainly need to just develop a Rolodex that you can access from anywhere in the world.  However, you WILL need to periodically check up on your properties.  I prefer to do that myself but I suppose you could even pay a trusted friend or a contractor to do some (not all) of that as well.

    I agree with Jim M.  Unless it is impossible in your situation, initially try managing the properties yourself for a while and THEN make your decisions going forward.

    Good Luck,

    Paul

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Paul Hextell:

    Tom,  I know you are busy with your "other business" but consider that you may be overestimating how time consuming it is to manage rentals on a monthly basis.  I purchased several duplexes a few years ago and have had them renovated and rented while also working a full-time job.   While I screened and placed my first few tenants myself I quickly realized that I really disliked that aspect of the business.  I wasn't all that good at it and I found it very time-consuming.  So, I stopped doing that and began contracting out tenant placement to a local realtor/PM, keeping the day to day management to myself. I have been pleasantly surprised at how well this has worked out for me.  My time investment is truly minimal and easily worth the monthly 10% standard PM charge.  Basically, all you need is a smart phone and the numbers of persons to call or text.  I say this because whatever issue that comes up can be resolved quite easily contacting the: plumber, electrician, handyman, painter, roofer, etc.  You mainly need to just develop a Rolodex that you can access from anywhere in the world.  However, you WILL need to periodically check up on your properties.  I prefer to do that myself but I suppose you could even pay a trusted friend or a contractor to do some (not all) of that as well.

    I agree with Jim M.  Unless it is impossible in your situation, initially try managing the properties yourself for a while and THEN make your decisions going forward.

    Good Luck,

    Paul

    Thanks, Paul. I like your method of having the PM handle the "tenant relations" part of it, while you still act as the general contractor for repairs and maintenance. It's kind of a hybrid form of management.

    On the advice of several people in this thread and elsewhere, and on my own gut feeling, I've decided to go ahead and manage everything myself at least at the beginning for the first few properties. Cost savings aside, the education will be very valuable going forward.

    Thanks again.

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  • Paul Hextell
    Real Estate Investor · DeBary, FL · Member since 2011 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    10y

    Good luck, Tom.  In the interest of ensuring that I communicated my own situation correctly.... I do handle "tenant relations" myself.  Just not the initial placement. Once the PM advertises, screens and places the tenant, he/she is out of the picture and it's all on me.  A typical "tenant relation" issue interaction might be:  Tenant calls me.  I call the contractor.  Later I pay the bill.  (Often I WILL visit and look at the issue myself first but if you are too busy or on vacation that can be forgone.)

    But the important thing is that you MAY be able to customize a management solution that works best for you.   Even if the right solution for you proves to be paying someone else to manage 100%, at least you will know by experience that that is the correct solution for you. (BTW, it can never truly be 100% because you can't completely trust that the PM is doing their job right.  No one will care about your property as much as you!

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Paul Hextell:

    Good luck, Tom.  In the interest of ensuring that I communicated my own situation correctly.... I do handle "tenant relations" myself.  Just not the initial placement. Once the PM advertises, screens and places the tenant, he/she is out of the picture and it's all on me.  A typical "tenant relation" issue interaction might be:  Tenant calls me.  I call the contractor.  Later I pay the bill.  (Often I WILL visit and look at the issue myself first but if you are too busy or on vacation that can be forgone.)

    But the important thing is that you MAY be able to customize a management solution that works best for you.   Even if the right solution for you proves to be paying someone else to manage 100%, at least you will know by experience that that is the correct solution for you. (BTW, it can never truly be 100% because you can't completely trust that the PM is doing their job right.  No one will care about your property as much as you!

    Thanks for clarifying, that is the way I understood your situation, I guess I didn't really phrase it well in my reply.

    As for the level of management I"ll want/need when I eventually get to that point, I think I'll definitely have a better idea what I want out of a management company after I've actually done some management myself. Even after that point, I'll still have to manage the management!

    Have a good one,

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    Lots of turnover and lots of repairs = a great year for them. Fundamental goals and purpose between the owner and PM are not aligned. Manage yourself if it's in your area.

    How is high turn over good for the PM when they are only charging a 25% lease up fee? On $1000 rent, that only $250. No one is making money at that rate.

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Tom V.:
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:

    @Tom V. Assuming they do a good job, their fee's seem more than reasonable to me. A 25% lease up fee is well below industry average. I wouldn't be concerned with a 10% renewal fee with just a 25% initial lease up fee. Be careful of hammering your PM on fee's. The most important thing is to get good management at a reasonable fee. I see people quibble over 1 or 2 percent if the PM does a good job. Is it worth it for about $20 a month?

     I agree, the most important thing is getting GOOD management at a reasonable fee. I would not want to learn this the hard way by just going with the cheapest option I can find. However, I also want to make sure I'm not paying more than I should be. I'm getting mixed answers from the forum, some say these PM fees are reasonable, and some say they are overpriced.

    For those that say they are overpriced, what components of their fee's do they think are two high? I don't know your market but I would be surprised if anyone is doing lease up for 25%. I would be more concerned that they are underpriced and can't be profitable with that pricing structure. They'll have to make it up somewhere or they won't be in business for long.

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  • Joseph S.
    Investor · Lynchburg, VA · Member since 2016 · 37 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    I have a lot of problems with your analysis, but let me just address your question directly and succinctly: "what components of their fee's [sic] do they think are two [sic] high"? The most egregious is charging 7% of the cost of repairs. That's what the 10% management fee is already paying for and it gives the PM the incentive to find the most expensive repairs possible. 

    Can you find a way to justify the 7% add on fee for cost of repairs?

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  • Steve Vaughan
    Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Mike D'Arrigo:
    Originally posted by @Steve Vaughan:

    Lots of turnover and lots of repairs = a great year for them. Fundamental goals and purpose between the owner and PM are not aligned. Manage yourself if it's in your area.

    How is high turn over good for the PM when they are only charging a 25% lease up fee? On $1000 rent, that only $250. No one is making money at that rate.

     25% placemey is the lowest I've seen (if just of the 1 month) but still 2.5 months of mgt. The biggest flag for me is the repair overrides. Make ready at turnover is now 8% more. That's on  top of whatever high price that was to begin .

    I've seen the invoices from my motivated sellers. Stacks of them. Keep it up! More deals for me.

    "My stove is broke" just costed $250 + 8% because they sent over the Maytag Man at $300/hr.  They didn't bother to find out over the phone it was just 1 burner, and pushing  it in tighter towards the center  of the stove top fixed it. 

    Why would they? This service call just made them extra $. Tell me where their incentive to reduce your costs are ? To ask the tenant a simple question or 2 when a service call comes in like a normal owner is asking too much and that's just fine for me. Crummy high priced mgt is still my best lead.

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Joseph S. First, thank you for pointing out my typo's and punctuation error's. I'll certainly try to do better. Secondly, I don't have a horse in this race. The OP asked for thoughts and I shared mine. Can I find a way to justify the 7% add on fee for the cost of repairs? Sure. When they're only charging a 25% lease up fee, they have to make their money somewhere. Most PM's charge 1 months rent for lease up. On a $1000 rental, that is a $750 savings on the lease up fee. In order for the PM to make that up on a 7% mark up on repairs, they would have to incur  $10,714 in repairs to come out even. How often do you have $10,714 in maintenance and repairs? I'll trade a 7% mark up on repairs for 25% lease up fee all day long, especially on a well renovated property that may or may not have any maintenance in a given year.

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Steve Vaughan I think we're on the same page. The point I was making about the low lease up fee is that they need to make it up somewhere and they either will or they will go out of business. However, as I pointed out in my previous post, it would take a lot of maintenance and repair costs to offset the low lease up fee. Personally, I think their fee structure is not sustainable which makes for unstable management.

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  • Sam Valme
    Rental Property Investor · Arlington, VA · Member since 2015 · 160 posts · 53 votes
    10y

    Hey @Tom V., Pretty sure you've gotten all the feedback you need on this question but I figured Why not show in my two cents. You actually answered the question in your original post. 100,000 population 1 major contender and two other smaller players (if i followed the thread correctly). Why is their fee structure the way it is? Because it can be and because people are willing to pay. At the end of the day, thats all that matters. 

    As a smaller shop we get away with charging a fixed monthly fee, leasing fee, and thats it. We also live in one of the most expensive areas in the country (Northern VA). However, every market is different. If our business model only had us bringing in <$50 per door and all our competitors marked up their maintenance expenses then we'd have to consider changing our model.

    My point is, we can go back and forth all day on whether its "too high", "too low", or "Just right". But just like property sales. It doesn't matter what a home is going for in San Fransisco, Atlanta, or Boston if I live in DC. They only thing that matters is what for sale next door. Whats available today. Thats my competition. If this company owns the town and you have 2 smaller options. Ask the tough questions to the smaller guys. See if they can offer a similar/better value. If yes, give them a shot. If no, either fold and go with the big guy or self manage. 

    Some PMs will probably roll in their grave but I'd advocate educating yourself on property management and consider managing yourself if you really can't swallow the fees. Property Management does not have to be hard. It doesn't have to be a full-time job if set up correctly. I'd personally rather charge someone a one time fee and run them through our management practice and have them cashflow. Then charge them monthly and see them lose money.

    ... I started this post telling myself I'd give a quick answer lol.

    At any rate. Good Luck!

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Sam Valme:

    Hey @Tom V., Pretty sure you've gotten all the feedback you need on this question but I figured Why not show in my two cents. You actually answered the question in your original post. 100,000 population 1 major contender and two other smaller players (if i followed the thread correctly). Why is their fee structure the way it is? Because it can be and because people are willing to pay. At the end of the day, thats all that matters. 

    As a smaller shop we get away with charging a fixed monthly fee, leasing fee, and thats it. We also live in one of the most expensive areas in the country (Northern VA). However, every market is different. If our business model only had us bringing in <$50 per door and all our competitors marked up their maintenance expenses then we'd have to consider changing our model.

    My point is, we can go back and forth all day on whether its "too high", "too low", or "Just right". But just like property sales. It doesn't matter what a home is going for in San Fransisco, Atlanta, or Boston if I live in DC. They only thing that matters is what for sale next door. Whats available today. Thats my competition. If this company owns the town and you have 2 smaller options. Ask the tough questions to the smaller guys. See if they can offer a similar/better value. If yes, give them a shot. If no, either fold and go with the big guy or self manage. 

    Some PMs will probably roll in their grave but I'd advocate educating yourself on property management and consider managing yourself if you really can't swallow the fees. Property Management does not have to be hard. It doesn't have to be a full-time job if set up correctly. I'd personally rather charge someone a one time fee and run them through our management practice and have them cashflow. Then charge them monthly and see them lose money.

    ... I started this post telling myself I'd give a quick answer lol.

    At any rate. Good Luck!

     Hi Sam, thanks for the advice, I appreciate it!

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  • Joseph S.
    Investor · Lynchburg, VA · Member since 2016 · 37 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Mike D'Arrigo

    Thanks for your response. I do apologize if my previous remark came across as snarky -- I do get a little passionate when IMHO I see other investors potentially getting ripped off.

    I think what it really comes down to is that you and I have a fundamental difference in belief over what is fair or reasonable (perhaps this is because of the regions we are familiar with). In my experience the standard management fee ranges from 5 - 10%. If someone is being charged at the top of this range (10%), then to add on all the ticky-tack other fees (10% lease renewal fee, 7% upcharge on repairs fee, 25%finder fee) seems both too high and sets up a misalignment of incentives.

    I don't think the 25% finder fee in isolation is too high. But when you say you'd be worried that fee is too low and they will go out of business, that seems overly dramatic and extreme. I've found tenants on my own places and done background checks, and in today's world of free online posting through hotpads, trulia, etc., the biggest expense involved is your time (and it often doesn't require an extreme amount of time).

    Another PM in this thread posted that he charges a flat 8% management fee and nothing else. Obviously that pricing structure can succeed. 

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  • Mike D'ArrigoPro Member
    Turn key provider · San Jose, CA · Member since 2010 · 4k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    @Joseph S. thanks for your reply. I'm not a PM so I'm not in the PM camp on this. The point I was making is that when PM's fee structures are significantly lower than industry standards, and in this case, 25% lease up fee appears to be much lower than most, the PM is going to make it up somewhere. That somewhere is either in other higher, less visible fees (until you get the bill) such as maintenance  or lousy management. True, you can easily do online background checks and post properties but keep in mind that the properties don't rent themselves. Someone has to screen and weed out the applicants and then show the property to prospective tenants. It can take multiple showings before you get a tenant. That's not such a big deal when you're doing it for a few of your own properties but when you're trying to make it a profitable business, that changes the dynamics when you have overhead and salaries to pay.

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  • LuAnn MillerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Sigourney, IA · Member since 2016 · 8 posts · 6 votes
    10y

    What other PM companies have you vetted?  I believe with the majority of these responses, there is no incentive to retain the current tenants.  I would suggest looking for a PM that is smaller and hungrier for the business.  They generally have your interest at the forefront and are quicker to respond to the tenant's issues.  I have viewed several properties that have been managed by a property manager and have been surprised with the subpar appearance on the inside of the units - outside looks great.  Ask for references and check them out in person - inside and out.  Good luck to you.

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @LuAnn Miller:

    What other PM companies have you vetted?  I believe with the majority of these responses, there is no incentive to retain the current tenants.  I would suggest looking for a PM that is smaller and hungrier for the business.  They generally have your interest at the forefront and are quicker to respond to the tenant's issues.  I have viewed several properties that have been managed by a property manager and have been surprised with the subpar appearance on the inside of the units - outside looks great.  Ask for references and check them out in person - inside and out.  Good luck to you.

     Thanks, LuAnn!

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  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Joseph S.:

    @Mike D'Arrigo

    Thanks for your response. I do apologize if my previous remark came across as snarky -- I do get a little passionate when IMHO I see other investors potentially getting ripped off.

    I think what it really comes down to is that you and I have a fundamental difference in belief over what is fair or reasonable (perhaps this is because of the regions we are familiar with). In my experience the standard management fee ranges from 5 - 10%. If someone is being charged at the top of this range (10%), then to add on all the ticky-tack other fees (10% lease renewal fee, 7% upcharge on repairs fee, 25%finder fee) seems both too high and sets up a misalignment of incentives.

    I don't think the 25% finder fee in isolation is too high. But when you say you'd be worried that fee is too low and they will go out of business, that seems overly dramatic and extreme. I've found tenants on my own places and done background checks, and in today's world of free online posting through hotpads, trulia, etc., the biggest expense involved is your time (and it often doesn't require an extreme amount of time).

    Another PM in this thread posted that he charges a flat 8% management fee and nothing else. Obviously that pricing structure can succeed. 

    That person also manages in an expensive area in CA.  If rent is $3,000/month, the PM is earning $240/month.  If he manages 80 doors, he's making 19,200/month.  I manage 80 doors, and I make no where near that amount of money, even when you include lease up fees of 1/2 month's rent.   I don't charge any maintenance overrides, but there are many in my market who do.  I can be a little less expensive because I have very little overhead.  

    My point is that you should call around and see what the going rate is in your area.  This particular PM sounds a little high to me in all areas except the lease up fee seems very low.  It probably all evens out.  

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  • Tom V.
    OP
    IA · Member since 2015 · 304 posts · 152 votes
    10y
    Originally posted by @Dawn Brenengen:

    That person also manages in an expensive area in CA.  If rent is $3,000/month, the PM is earning $240/month.  If he manages 80 doors, he's making 19,200/month.  I manage 80 doors, and I make no where near that amount of money, even when you include lease up fees of 1/2 month's rent.   I don't charge any maintenance overrides, but there are many in my market who do.  I can be a little less expensive because I have very little overhead.  

    My point is that you should call around and see what the going rate is in your area.  This particular PM sounds a little high to me in all areas except the lease up fee seems very low.  It probably all evens out.  

     Thanks, Dawn. That's a great point about how it depends a lot on how expensive (or not) the particular market is. It makes sense that in a more expensive market, PM companies can earn just as much or more without having to charge any lease up fees or maintenance markups.

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  • Joseph S.
    Investor · Lynchburg, VA · Member since 2016 · 37 posts · 24 votes
    10y

    @Dawn Brenengen

    Yes I do think that generally the more expensive the area the less (as a percentage) PMs can charge. 

    I still think that charging a "maintenance override" fee is absolutely ridiculous no matter the market. First, isn't that what the base (5-10%) management fee is supposed to be covering? Second, and more importantly, it sets up a horrible incentive for the PM to find the most expensive repairs.

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  • Dawn BrenengenBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Raleigh, NC · Member since 2014 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    10y

    @Joseph S. Agreed!  The maintenance uncharge seems crazy to me too.  I think handling maintenance is just part of the job.  That's what I'm already collecting 8%/month to handle!

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