Is August 1 the next D Day? (Disaster, Disappointment, Depression

Is August 1 the next D Day? (Disaster, Disappointment, Depression

Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes

Ladies and gentlemen...I POUR myself into being a student of this game. I talk to ANYONE who will l talk to me who FAR outweighs my experience and intelligence. I have felt as though this is our LAST summer of love for real estate investing...unless you plan to sell that appreciated property in the next few months. I stated my career in real estate WATCHING prices skyrocket from the sidelines in 2008-2012. I was FRUSTRATED and mad because I couldn't afford anything that made sense. I knew the north side of Chicago and the suburbs on a block by block intimacy! That is NOT a joke. 

That's why it took me YEARS to buy a duplex to move into. In 2012, I bought in a prime location, a duplex 6 houses from Northwestern University's football stadium. Walking distance to two different train systems into Chicago and a mile from Lake Michigan I had a 6/4 duplex w a three car garage and a parking pad. I paid $280K. It currently rents for $5200/m and it is under market rent.

Last year I had it appraised for $700k. Four days ago I had a broker (with a master's degree in Real Estate, a Partner in a commercial loan brokerage, and real estate license in multiple states) pull comps for me and he said it should SELL at $875K.

What!? HOW could it have gone up based on the comps of SOLD properties $175k in less than 6 mos.?????

Guys, I had been saying that there is going to be a MASSIVE reset on property. I have never sold a property before and I am looking to liquidate majority of my inventory. And, that is my income.

I even started throwing around August because...it would allow for a buyers surge because of great stock market returns (FAKE), appreciating properties (FAKE), general faith in the economy under our new business bullish president (FAKE), and the number of buyers with returned credit scores after their last loss married to a historic interest rate starting to climb!  IT IS A GREAT STORM COMING. I've been scared to say it, to too many people, I don't want to be looked at as chicken little...BUT I've had enough intelligent people echo what I have been feeling.

I spoke with my commercial loan banker and told her my feelings (its a weird relationship, I tell her every time I think I have made a costly error, been screwed by a contractor, or think I should back out of a deal). Most people want to preserve a feeling of being the supreme investor who is all put together, feels confident in how they run their whole business, and to me...puts on a good show. I don't know how to be ANYTHING but brutally honest and I don't hide things from people, as a former firefighter/paramedic you quickly learn how to have VERY hard conversations. Telling a child their father has died or a daughter that her father has passed and we won't be taking him to the hospital because I had pronounced him dead at the scene QUICKLY makes you learn that ripping off a bandaid and quickly exposing yourself as vulnerable WORKS. This lead me into a conversation about her recent investing moves. I told her that I fully expect interest rates to DROP. She looked at me crazy. I told her to watch for trends of the smart money buying into bonds....I went on with the rest of my theories and she maintained an unusual blank stare at me until she had a moment to speak up (I talk quickly). "I just took all my money out of the stock market and put it all in bonds," she stammered. I asked her why and she told me the financial adviser that also advises the moves of my local bank encouraged her to do so. 

I bought a few more points of legitimacy in that moment. I told her what I had been thinking based on listening to and observing the data that some of the countries MOST brilliant economic minds are quietly saying in closed door meetings. The reset is coming. It has to. No one knows what will cause it, but as Kathy Fettke (if you don't know who she is go and start listening to her podcast and look up her website STUFFED with brilliant people https://www.realwealthnetwork.com/learn/real-wealt...

has said, "Bubbles don't slowly leak...they burst." 

Today I listened to yesterday's podcast, she and Salvatore Buscemi said even commercial residential will have a bubble due to the number of products that people have purchased and their ARM's are coming due. Banks are going to call those loans due and MANY are under water. This shook me to my core and has me quickly taking action. Sell in my hot localities and stay steady in my strong cash flowing market that I have a majority of my investments in. Feel free to ask me questions, but understand I just study everyone else's answers who have followed the data. There is no room for emotion today. Flip whatever you have no quickly and get it out of your hands. Sit on your cash and be ready to pounce later this year. Good luck out there.

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Russell BrazilBusiness Member
Moderator
Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
9y

Everyone thinks they are the one person who can see a coming crash....and some of the bears are bound to be right simply because they always predict a downturn, but they are wrong most of the time as the markets spend a much higher percentage of time going up than going down.

Peter Lynch, one of the greatest investors of modern times though astutely pointed out that far more money has been lost by people trying to anticipate market corrections than has actually been lost in market corrections.

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  • Investor · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2015 · 6k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Meghan McCallum, congrats on getting in as early as 2012.

    Now, you've got a 1 in 365 chance (per year) of getting the next D day correct. I won't give you any odds on August 1 being more likely than ANY other day.

    The herd will do what the herd does, when it does. But YOU are safe, either way!

    ie. Even if your Rental return HALVED (which it wouldn't), you'd still cover your mortgage!

     If you're inclined to cash in - why wait? ie. Don't try to time the very TOP of the market! My 2c.

  • Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes
    9y

    @Brent Coombs I picked August 1 because I referenced "D Day". August is what Kathy Fettke and Sal both said. I'm getting out now. Getting back in there, repainting, tidying up, adding a bedroom buy putting a closet in a nonconforming bedroom and BOOM...money out. It is in a neighborhood that has 0 month's inventory. Prime time. Chicago(land) is blowing up right now and I'm afraid all the wrong people are getting in.

  • Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 39 posts · 33 votes
    9y
    I agree with you in the fact that something is going to burst soon and for this reason I am finishing up my last rehab that I just purchased to rent out. My plan is to save up as much cash to be able to pickup some of these deals after the reset happens. The party is about to end and it probably won't look good as the government doesn't really have many options left to juice up the economy again. I owned property before and after the 2008 crash and was able to get some of my best deals a year after that mess. I also saw a lot of friends and colleagues who were over leveraged lose everything. So my advice to anyone is if you are over leveraged find a way to change that. Leverage is good when you have control of it but once you lose control you could possibly lose it all.
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    nice post... .nothing wrong at all with taking cash when you can.. I did it personally in the Bay area 4 times over 20 years each time was HUGE tax free gain  talking about selling my personal resi when it got to 500k of equity and no tax.. this one move over those years set up my entire business life.

    so if your smart enough lucky enough blessed enough to live in an area were you have massive appreciation .. then by all means turn it to cash and look for the next great thing.. as long as you use that cash wisely.. myself I started different business's some went well some cratered  LOL.

  • Investor · Orlando, FL · Member since 2012 · 183 posts · 155 votes
    9y

    NOBODY knows. Everyone has a guess and a "feeling" and they all have data to point in every single direction. Don't over leverage yourself, that's about the only piece of advice that matters. 

    I also feel like something has to give but if I stop flipping houses because I think things are overpriced I won't have an income. Just have to buy right so I can still get out of them if things take a turn. 

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    PS I had lunch with Kathy in oh about 2011 ish we were both climbing back from the ruins of 08 her moving from bay area to Malibu  and myself starting a new gig.. Nice lady done very well.

    also Geraldine Berry is working with here she is a very nice lady as well if you know her.. there are smart investors in every market.

  • Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2014 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    @Meghan McCallum,

    The part I think you got right pertains to needed refi's in the days to come.

    Now that interest rates are finally rising after such an extended period at record lows, any properties depending on Cap rates are going to see a significant change in value.

    In general, of course, my belief is that the housing shortage will support residential properties and maintain the demand for rentals. The availability of financing will impact the market for properties being sold or refinanced. Commercial multis will likely see some changes in Cap rates and, hence, selling prices / values.

    I'll go along with the idea of disappointment. 

    Disaster may be a bit extreme. 

    Depression will likely be more psychological, I think. Folks don't take very well to major changes in their net worth due to such changes.

    My $0.02 ...

  • Investor · NOVA, VA · Member since 2014 · 99 posts · 101 votes
    9y

    Cashing out that appreciated equity could also mean refinancing now and holding both cash and the properties into the future.  Your cash flow will of course tank but with a fat bank account who cares.

    Edit: I agree with your conclusion overall.  QE infinity and fiscal shenanigans have consequences.  All financial assets seem overvalued and highly risky.  

  • Investor · Saint Charles, MO · Member since 2016 · 118 posts · 91 votes
    9y

    1. How do you feel about low unemployment, low interest rates, rising wages, more people entering the upper class?  

    2.  What makes you think stock market "returns" and appreciating property values are "fake"?  

  • Russell BrazilBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes
    9y

    Everyone thinks they are the one person who can see a coming crash....and some of the bears are bound to be right simply because they always predict a downturn, but they are wrong most of the time as the markets spend a much higher percentage of time going up than going down.

    Peter Lynch, one of the greatest investors of modern times though astutely pointed out that far more money has been lost by people trying to anticipate market corrections than has actually been lost in market corrections.

  • Johnson City, TN · Member since 2014 · 586 posts · 705 votes
    9y

    sounds like the best thing for the op is to sell her rental immediately even if sold 10% below market then taking the money and start shorting stocks.

  • Investor · Rochester, NY · Member since 2016 · 477 posts · 426 votes
    9y

    I'm 100% behind the idea that a correction is coming - we're just at that point in the cycle. But I'm not making any decisions thinking a repeat (or worse) of 2008 is coming. Unless banks have started doing No-Doc loans on a massive scale again, I see the residential sector as having a fairly sound foundation. 2008 is still fresh in the minds of many lenders, and everything I've seen says they're still being appropriately restrained. Maybe just starting to lean a bit loose.

    Commercial and Commercial MF especially, I've been hearing a lot of the same things as you: there's a lot of debt coming due on properties that are now, or soon will be, upside down. And people continue to buy properties at the top of the cycle, based on future rent growth and pie in the sky expense ratios. I think there will be a bit of a correction in this sector, but with all the demand from outside the US for these types of properties, I think it will be muted.

    As long as you're paying attention to the demographics (which is going to be dominated by the increasing age/wealth of the 'average' American for quite a while still) and/or don't play in the boom/bust sandboxes, you'll be fine. I'm definitely sitting on cash right now, because I can't find anything to get excited enough about to pull the trigger on. That could change tomorrow, or next year, regardless of the economy as a whole. 

    I don't think it's a time to be scared, just disciplined.

  • Loan Officer / Processor / Life & Health Agent · Rancho Cucamonga, CA · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 757 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Meghan McCallum:

    Ladies and gentlemen...I POUR myself into being a student of this game. I talk to ANYONE who will l talk to me who FAR outweighs my experience and intelligence. I have felt as though this is our LAST summer of love for real estate investing...unless you plan to sell that appreciated property in the next few months. I stated my career in real estate WATCHING prices skyrocket from the sidelines in 2008-2012. I was FRUSTRATED and mad because I couldn't afford anything that made sense. I knew the north side of Chicago and the suburbs on a block by block intimacy! That is NOT a joke. 

    That's why it took me YEARS to buy a duplex to move into. In 2012, I bought in a prime location, a duplex 6 houses from Northwestern University's football stadium. Walking distance to two different train systems into Chicago and a mile from Lake Michigan I had a 6/4 duplex w a three car garage and a parking pad. I paid $280K. It currently rents for $5200/m and it is under market rent.

    Last year I had it appraised for $700k. Four days ago I had a broker (with a master's degree in Real Estate, a Partner in a commercial loan brokerage, and real estate license in multiple states) pull comps for me and he said it should SELL at $875K.

    What!? HOW could it have gone up based on the comps of SOLD properties $175k in less than 6 mos.?????

    Guys, I had been saying that there is going to be a MASSIVE reset on property. I have never sold a property before and I am looking to liquidate majority of my inventory. And, that is my income.

    I even started throwing around August because...it would allow for a buyers surge because of great stock market returns (FAKE), appreciating properties (FAKE), general faith in the economy under our new business bullish president (FAKE), and the number of buyers with returned credit scores after their last loss married to a historic interest rate starting to climb!  IT IS A GREAT STORM COMING. I've been scared to say it, to too many people, I don't want to be looked at as chicken little...BUT I've had enough intelligent people echo what I have been feeling.

    I spoke with my commercial loan banker and told her my feelings (its a weird relationship, I tell her every time I think I have made a costly error, been screwed by a contractor, or think I should back out of a deal). Most people want to preserve a feeling of being the supreme investor who is all put together, feels confident in how they run their whole business, and to me...puts on a good show. I don't know how to be ANYTHING but brutally honest and I don't hide things from people, as a former firefighter/paramedic you quickly learn how to have VERY hard conversations. Telling a child their father has died or a daughter that her father has passed and we won't be taking him to the hospital because I had pronounced him dead at the scene QUICKLY makes you learn that ripping off a bandaid and quickly exposing yourself as vulnerable WORKS. This lead me into a conversation about her recent investing moves. I told her that I fully expect interest rates to DROP. She looked at me crazy. I told her to watch for trends of the smart money buying into bonds....I went on with the rest of my theories and she maintained an unusual blank stare at me until she had a moment to speak up (I talk quickly). "I just took all my money out of the stock market and put it all in bonds," she stammered. I asked her why and she told me the financial adviser that also advises the moves of my local bank encouraged her to do so. 

    I bought a few more points of legitimacy in that moment. I told her what I had been thinking based on listening to and observing the data that some of the countries MOST brilliant economic minds are quietly saying in closed door meetings. The reset is coming. It has to. No one knows what will cause it, but as Kathy Fettke (if you don't know who she is go and start listening to her podcast and look up her website STUFFED with brilliant people https://www.realwealthnetwork.com/learn/real-wealt...

    has said, "Bubbles don't slowly leak...they burst." 

    Today I listened to yesterday's podcast, she and Salvatore Buscemi said even commercial residential will have a bubble due to the number of products that people have purchased and their ARM's are coming due. Banks are going to call those loans due and MANY are under water. This shook me to my core and has me quickly taking action. Sell in my hot localities and stay steady in my strong cash flowing market that I have a majority of my investments in. Feel free to ask me questions, but understand I just study everyone else's answers who have followed the data. There is no room for emotion today. Flip whatever you have no quickly and get it out of your hands. Sit on your cash and be ready to pounce later this year. Good luck out there.

     I would put my cash into Annuities rather than bonds.  Either way it's a must to keep your money diversified.  If you're top heavy on RE or anything else for that matter you're at risk.  Spread your wealth!

  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    @Meghan McCallum , Regarding the bedroom you're putting a closet into, please note that a closet is not indicative of a bedroom. It must have at least 7 foot ceilings, two points of egress and be at least 70 sq ft to be a bedroom. http://sacramentoappraisalblog.com/2014/09/09/the-4-requirements-for-a-room-to-be-considered-a-bedroom/

  • Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes
    9y

    @Mindy Jensen in this city...you must ALSO have a closet. HOME RULE RULES!!! 

  • Westmont, Illinois (IL) · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    Thanks, I am following. My husband and I have been trying to find the next deal. Yesterday, he was on the train scrolling through the details of a new listing. He came home 20 minutes later and said, let's look at it, it might be something, so we went back to the website, and the house was already contingent! 6 hours on the market. And it was not even something we would be interested in after we analysed it!

  • Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes
    9y

    @Yulia J. I am not telling people to stop investing. I am telling them to be aware of their surroundings. Good job! Some of the best deals we ever have done are the ones we didn't get. :)

  • Westmont, Illinois (IL) · Member since 2016 · 53 posts · 15 votes
    9y

    @Meghan McCallum , I totally get it! It's smart to know what's going on.

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