Partnership Gone Bad: What would you do?

Partnership Gone Bad: What would you do?

Shiloh LundahlPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes

Here are the facts. I'll try keep it as unbiased as possible to get some honest feedback from other investors.

Last year I met an investor who was flipping houses in Phoenix. I connected with him by email a couple of times and then by phone to ask him some questions. Later he sent me an email outlining a deal and stated he was looking for an investor. The email stated the following:

"Hello Investors! I have a couple deals that I am looking for some 50-50 partners. I will summarize in this email but I have attached the detailed formulas for you to look at. If you have any questions, please feel free to call, text, or email me.

I am looking for partners to help with funding these projects. We just need the gap money (down payment, remodel, and holding costs). For this investment, the investor gets 50% of the net profits at the Sale of the property. I need approx. $117,000 and your potential profit is about $22,000 in about 5 1/2 months. That is a 41% APR"

I am including the documents and contracts in case you want to see what I saw when I decided to invest with him.

Here is the projected ROI that I got in the email:

Now here is deed of trust and the contract that I got when I invested with him:

Now, I recognize that I made plenty of mistakes with this process.  This was one of my first partnerships and I didn't look at the fine print of the contract as I should have.  I didn't realize that this investor, acting as the realtor, would add in a commission when purchasing this from a wholesaler thus increasing the cost of the property.  Then he would get commissions again when selling the property.  And then he would split the leftovers "profit" at the end 50/50.  

Things seemed to be going well at first with the above property so when this investor sent out another property in Scottsdale with the following numbers I decided to invest again with him.

Total investor portion $127,000

Potential Return on Investment (ROI): $22,000

Annual Percentage Return: 35%

Projected Total Days from Buy to Sell: 174

The rehab seemed to go pretty quickly and the houses were on the market within a couple of months of being purchased.  And then they sat, and sat, and sat.  I called the investor regularly every couple of weeks to see the progress on the properties but there was very little progress made.  After several months on the market with very few showings on the property in Scottsdale and still no offers on the one in Phoenix, I started to get nervous and I called up this investor and I asked him if we were still going to be making a profit on the properties.  He said that it didn't look like we were.  Then I asked him if I would be getting all of my investor monies back as it stated in the contract.  He said that I probably wouldn't.  At this point, he was paid commissions on the buy side and he had very little money into the properties himself while I had a combination of 117k and 127k into them for a total of 244k invested with him.  The property in Phoenix had had some showings and one lowball offer.  The property in Scottsdale had only had about one showing in 7 months.  At this time I found out that he had 6 other properties out on the market that were just sitting there and he didn't have any other exit strategies.

Now I have already felt the sting of my mistakes, and there is no need to shoot a wounded man, so I am not so much looking for criticism for investing with him, rather, I would like to know what you would do if you were in my situation and you had just heard that you would not be getting all of your investor monies back and that he didn't have any other strategy besides waiting for them to sell.

Thanks for your comments.

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Linda WeygantPro Member
Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
9y

I would contact any other real estate agent in those markets and ask them to give you comps for these two properties and find out if the list price is anywhere close to market price.  The only reason a house doesn't sell is that it is priced wrong.  Real estate always moves, you just have to have the right price.    

Find out from that agent if these houses are even listed (I wonder....)

I can't think of a reason why this would be a good business model for this guy, but clearly he has some kind of system he's using to have so many projects sitting and not moving.  Trying to think of the scam or angle, but having a tough time coming up with something.

If the other agent says that the price is right, then ask your partner to relist the properties with this other agent (they should get something for the work they've done for you) because clearly this guy is either screwing something up intentionally, is a crappy marketer or something like that.

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  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 154 posts · 117 votes
    9y

    Sorry to hear about this. No matter how much money you have it still leaves a mark when something shady happens.

    You always need to pay the buyers agent but I don't take any listing commissions when I partner other than the $300 fee my brokerage charges per transaction and all the investors split it, including me. Matter of fact, I just painted the outside of the current group project since I have a sprayer just so I could net everyone more money. Sounds like he got paid several times throughout the projects.

    I don't know all of the events that took place but it's possible the Realtor may have violated the code of ethics if he didn't spell everything out to you up front and in writing. Best of luck and let us know how it turns out.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeff Schneider Thanks for your empathy.  I know that buyer's agents get commissions but this property was brought to me from him to partner up on.  If I had known that he was going to double dip then I wouldn't have done it with him.  

    He may have violated some realtor code of ethics but I am not a realtor so I am not sure about their specific code of ethics.  But from what he did say to me I know was that he intended to break his portion of the contract where it states "At final sale of said property, investors will receive 100% of all investor monies."

    After 8 months of nothing really happening with the properties and I started to ask if I would be getting my investor monies back, he stated that he didn't think so.  Then he stated that he had started to use his own monies to pay some of the holding costs because the holding period was longer than anticipated and he wanted me to reimburse him for those costs because it stated in my portion of the agreement that I would "provide additional investor monies if needed to cover unforeseen expenses."

    At this point what would you do?

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    I would contact any other real estate agent in those markets and ask them to give you comps for these two properties and find out if the list price is anywhere close to market price.  The only reason a house doesn't sell is that it is priced wrong.  Real estate always moves, you just have to have the right price.    

    Find out from that agent if these houses are even listed (I wonder....)

    I can't think of a reason why this would be a good business model for this guy, but clearly he has some kind of system he's using to have so many projects sitting and not moving.  Trying to think of the scam or angle, but having a tough time coming up with something.

    If the other agent says that the price is right, then ask your partner to relist the properties with this other agent (they should get something for the work they've done for you) because clearly this guy is either screwing something up intentionally, is a crappy marketer or something like that.

  • Rockaway, NJ · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    9y

    I have no experience in this situation, but my first thought would be to tell him that I would not send him any money. He can pay any holding costs out of pocket, and then deduct anything that is DOCUMENTED from your portion when house sells. If he is coming out of pocket, he may work harder to sell.

    The above does not constitute professional advice. Perhaps someone with more experience can weigh in.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2016 · 154 posts · 117 votes
    9y

    That's a tough call. I've never known anyone is this position. Your only recourse may be getting him to price drop, sell and retain as much of your investment as possible or seek council. I hate the lawyer option though because it seems nobody ever wins, they just shell out more money to possibly get a judgment that may never get paid. If you can prove he violated the code of ethics, you may be able to put pressure on him but at some point he will get pissed off enough to not work with you at all. It would be better to get a good chunk back if possible.

  • Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    My question would be why these properties are sitting for so long in an area that has good demand. 

    Are they overpriced?

    Is the rehab really bad quality/

    Were these houses actually purchased by him, or just a long con?

  • Investor · Hendersonville, NC · Member since 2016 · 138 posts · 71 votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl I'm not an attorney, but I'm really curious to see what an attorney says.  Assuming the documents in your post were all properly executed, it seems like you stand to receive your investment back regardless of the sale price...even if the properties sell for less than the amount you put in!

    Knowing that he has to make you whole, the investor may be unwilling to reduce the price to a level that will generate more traffic, because he knows he will take a loss. May be worth a conversation between the two of you about pricing strategy. If it's not going to sell at the expected ARV, you may need to negotiate some mutual concessions in order to get out of the deal and minimize your losses.

    Before sending any more money, however, make sure both parties are clear in writing that upon any sale at any price, you get 100% of your money back including additional "investor monies".

    May not be a bad person...just doesn't know how to forecast ARV.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Linda Weygant I talked with my realtor buddy that are usually partner up with on deals and he said that the homes were just priced way too high.

  • Linda WeygantPro Member
    Investor and CPA · Arvada, CO · Member since 2015 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @Linda Weygant I talked with my realtor buddy that are usually partner up with on deals and he said that the homes were just priced way too high.

    Tell him he needs to drop the price and get these sold or cash you out now.  Your contract may not have the teeth for it (I am not an attorney), but you need to start riding this person.  Hard.   Squeaky wheels get the grease!

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Kyle Blake  yes the properties were priced too high and there was a couple of unpermitted additions that could have deterred some buyers. Also when I was able to send somebody up to take a look at the property they found some issues with some of the rehab.

    I am pretty sure this guy is not a con man or trying to scam me. I think he probably just didn't comp out the properties very well.  Then as things weren't selling he didn't have any other good exit strategies so he was just left with properties that he didn't know what to do with other than just dropping the price.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Jeff Schneider, @Pearce G., @Linda Weygant I  did consult with my attorney. He told me that I should try to get the investor to deed the properties over to me. 

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl Sucks that this guy put you in this position.

     I agree with @Jeff Schneider, involving attorneys probably should not be your first course of action. I think your goal should be to get the most amount of your investment back in the shortest amount of time. You need to have a tough conversation with your partner that ends with both of you agreeing on the way forward. This may mean making some concessions that sting. If this situation turns adversarial, than you won't see your $200k+ for a long time.

     I'd get him to sign an addendum that gives you the power to sell the properties/deeds them to you and lays out distribution of funds. Get another agent to handle the sale even if that meant paying yourself.  Your "partner" may be working an angle or doesn't have the skills needed to close the deal.

  • Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl

    Being you are the money, I would push to get these sold as soon as you can. I'm kind of shocked this wasn't addressed early on instead of him dragging this out for months on end. Sounds like the guy is a bad agent (way overpriced and oblivious to this) and cut corners on his rehabs. From the sound of things, there is zero chance of these selling around this price point, and would be looking to get out of them as soon as you can. 

    Between holding cost (ridiculous he wants you to pay addition) and money being lost by the day, I would demand it be lowered. Maybe you can locate an agent that would give you an honest price assessment on these places. 

    Edit, if you can get the deeds, I would certainly go that route and either sell or turn them into rentals if the areas support this.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Paia, HI · Member since 2016 · 479 posts · 311 votes
    9y

    Consult a lawyer. Even if you pay a couple hundred bucks, his/her advice will be valuable. Definitely don't give any more money. The guy is taking no responsibility for the fact that the property has sat. Have there been any price reductions? Has he provided you with comps??

    Also, if he can't give you your original investment as contracted, perhaps you can recover this amount from him personally over time, plus interest? You really need a lawyer. 

    It appears this person has no accountability for written agreements, and having been scammed, I can tell you unscrupulous people will sign anything with no intent to abide by the agreed-upon terms. 

    Do you absolutely need the money now? Another strategy might be to rent the properties, hold them, wait for the market to improve. Or do this simultaneously with the sales to cover carrying costs.

    Have you googled the agent, checked the board of realtors, real estate licensing division to see if he has complaints? Figure out who you're dealing with. 

    Keep us posted. 

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    Thanks for your comment @Kyle Blake I agree with you.  

    @Bill F. My attorney encouraged me to try to take back the properties rather than to go the legal route because the legal rout would ultimately be more costly and painful.  So I went to one of my hard money lenders for advice.  He told me to set up a meeting with the investor, him, and I together and to have the title company prepare deeds of trust for the properties.  

    On the day of the meeting, the investor came into the office with my hard money lender/mentor and me and we talked about the plan for the properties.  Because he didn't have a really good answer on how he planned to sell them my hard money lender said, "since there isn't any money left in the properties to be made, why don't you just sign the properties over and we will pay off your hard money lender and we will take over the properties."  The investor said ok and signed the deeds that the title company had created and the investor left.  

    A little while later the investor called me and said that I should reimburse him for the money that he had put into the properties to help cover some of the holding costs.  He said that I still owed him $11,767.17.  When I pointed out that he had already been paid around 20k through commissions for the purchases of the properties and that I would likely be losing money on the properties, he still insisted that I should pay him according to the contract.  I asked him if he could guarantee that I would would get all of my investor monies back if I paid him the additional $11,767.17 that he paid in holding costs.  He wasn't able to commit to that.  

    What would you do now in this situation?  This question is for anyone reading this post.

  • Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl

    Without question I would tell him to get bent. He took advantage of you and created these additional cost. He can deal with that himself. I would have laughed and hung up on him. 

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Kyle Blake I hear your frustration and can appreciate it having been the person in the situation.  But I really do think that his intention was for both of us to make money (albeit for him to make more money than me) but he just didn't do the comps very good and he got into a place that he didn't know what to do so he kind of just froze.  I don't think he is a bad person, but I do think that his mentality was different than mine.  He believed that he should be paid regardless if the properties made money or not or if I got my investor monies back or not.  My belief system is different.  When I do a deal with an investor, the investor always gets paid first because they trusted me and I would rather they get made whole according to the agreed upon terms of the deal, even if I have to come to the closing with my own money to make it close.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Loren Clive So the attorney encouraged me to see if the investor would deed the properties back into my name and he did.  Later he became upset that he deeded the properties over to me.  He wanted me to pay him another 11k to reimburse him for the money he spent on holding costs.  He was also behind in hard money payments that I had to pay on including the late fees - which was a violation of his side of the contract as well.

    Also, he was still expecting to get commissions on the sales side of the transaction too.

  • Fort Collins, CO · Member since 2016 · 45 posts · 23 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Shiloh Lundahl:

    @Kyle Blake I hear your frustration and can appreciate it having been the person in the situation.  But I really do think that his intention was for both of us to make money (albeit for him to make more money than me) but he just didn't do the comps very good and he got into a place that he didn't know what to do so he kind of just froze.  I don't think he is a bad person, but I do think that his mentality was different than mine.  He believed that he should be paid regardless if the properties made money or not or if I got my investor monies back or not.  My belief system is different.  When I do a deal with an investor, the investor always gets paid first because they trusted me and I would rather they get made whole according to the agreed upon terms of the deal, even if I have to come to the closing with my own money to make it close.

    He's an agent, and also a (supposed) experienced flipper and yet he did everything wrong or half ***. He caused you a loss and really doesn't seem to care the bind you were put in. He failed to meet the terms and when that happens, you don't reward bad behavior. Good intentions don't mean anything when you're too lazy to run comps (when you're a realtor, let alone a flipper, this is ridiculous), and produce a poor flip. He should be grateful he got to walk with those commissions. 

    I would have the houses completed correctly, get their true sale value, and when they are sold, and you're a 100% reimbursed (as stated in the contract) then maybe (and only maybe) should you consider giving him another dime. Business is just that business.

  • Residential Real Estate Broker · Paia, HI · Member since 2016 · 479 posts · 311 votes
    9y

    Yeah for you @Shiloh Lundahl!

    If I didn't need the cash, I would  keep the properties and rent them, or sell them if I could break even doing so. Sounds like you could also use the properties as leverage--you bought them free and clear, right?--via refinancing if the rents are high enough.

    As far as the investor's (the investor is also the realtor, right?) demand for the $11k, that gave me a good laugh. Getting paid commissions implies he actually SOLD the properties, which he didn't right? Regardless of his intent, he simply didn't get the job done.

    I too work with investor partners, and like you, I would take a hit rather than expect to get paid if the deal didn't pay out as projected.

  • Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl

    Sounds like your partner is thinking more like a real estate agent and less like an investor by asking for the $11k in "expenses" Don't get worked up about it or argue try and show him why he's wrong. Mark Twain said it best: "Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience"

    I'm assuming that when he signed the properties over to you the attorney had you two sign some document that ended the partnership? I'd either ignore him or tell him you'll the $11k out of the promised returns he owes you. After that, capture your lessons learned to ensure this doesn't happen to you again and move on.

  • Member since 2016 · 13k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    9y

    I would set my lawyer on him with the intent of having both properties deeded over to me. I would not waste time with any other options. Let the legal system run it's course.

    You want to be first in line since there are 4 other investors in your same boat. Likely hood is he will be declaring bankruptcy soon.

  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    9y

    @Shiloh Lundahl your lawyer and HML in this instance gave you great advice you know control the deal I would not communicate with the other guy at all.. he is not going to sue you for 11k .. this deal is done.. get what you can get and move on.

    GAP funding is by far the riskiest you can do and especially with someone you met over the internet..

    when and if you do this again.. you need to go kick the dirt meet the person look at past performance compare huds... see projects in process.. and under stand true values you cannot just take their word for it.. you need to act just like HML which you are in this instance only worse your in 2nd position..

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Kyle Blake  I appreciate what you said. I did end up doing just that. I asked him at what point he is ok with me losing money on the investment before he loses any money on the investment. He told me that I was the investor on this investment and that all investments have risks  and that I should have known that I could have lost money in this investment. However the contract states that I will be getting all of my investor monies back. So I told him that as soon as I recoup all of my investor monies, that I would make sure that he is made whole before I take any profits.

  • Shiloh LundahlPro Member
    OP
    Rental Property Investor · Gilbert, AZ · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    9y

    @Jay Hinrichs Great advice Jay. That is almost exactly what I did. I still needed to get the repairs that were made on the properties for the new buyers that I would have for the properties. So after a couple of emails he was willing to give me the list of repairs that were made.

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