Is lender entitled to this info - ex's refi
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Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes
9yThe lender is no more entitled to any particular paperwork than the borrower is entitled to any particular mortgage.
You are completely free to reject that request, @Diane G.
58 Replies
- Baton Rouge, LA · Member since 2017 · 7 posts · 2 votes9y
I am not sure about ca. being a community property state but I'm assuming it is, regardless if underwriting needs a cancellation of mortgage, they should be able to get it from the court house... The cancelled note(s) "paid in full" should be retained for your records... The only other reason I can see ur bank wanting this is actually to do with the income/ debt ratio.. Jay
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes9y
The lender is no more entitled to any particular paperwork than the borrower is entitled to any particular mortgage.
You are completely free to reject that request, @Diane G.
- 9yDiane G.CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesOP
@Account Closed
Your comments are seriously off mark... If you have good knowledge on my question, I welcome your comments..
What you just said is a complete waste of everyone's time....
Just because I dont want to pay cash does not mean my question is invalid....
- 9yDiane G.CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesOP@john Anderson - just becasue they are putting out money does not mean they get to invade other people's privacy.... in this case my ex.... and it is not I like to defend ex....it is a principle issue to me... I am not going to ask ex for that info.... So I told BNC that, and yes, I will absolutely no problem walk and go with another lender.... BNC can go and grab borrowers who will bent backward to please.... Chances are these borrowers won't have a 25% DTI and $500k cash in the bank
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Diane G.:
Guys - thank you for your inputs... My DTI is 25% ish....
Wells Fargo did provide a letter stating the joint mortgage is now paid off, which I sent to BNC... So they know it is paid off.... Their question is what if the ex took out a new loan and has my name on it....To me, that is no different than asking any random person in the street to prove that they did not use your name to take out a mortgage...
And yes, I did tell BNC that I take it as invasion of other people's privacy... I, fortunately, have a lot of choices in terms of which lender I want to go with...So they can go fxxx themselves if they insist on that request....
I just wanted to know if that is a out of place request....I dont want to be un-reasonable... They should not be either...
It's possible that the refinance's Deed of Trust will hit one of the public record databases, or MERS, before this transaction closes, which amounts to the same invasion of privacy, but requires no work on your part and might occur without your knowledge. Mortgage records aren't private in California, they are in the public record. Here's the signature page from a Deed of Trust from a random home in my neighborhood:
- 9yDiane G.CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesOP
@ chris mason - BNC was NOT asking for Deed, they asked for ex closing statement, which would show his loan amount, which property he took the loan against, so on and so forth, which I dont believe is public info at all....That is why I feel upset because I were to go up to anybody (as unrelated as an ex) and ask for his financial, guess which finger he is going to give??
AND it is really none of BNC business... you can't randomly go up to anyone and ask to see his financial just to prove that he did not use your name...
To me, it is ignorant and unthoughtfulness on BNC part... They just ask for anything they want without thinking... That is how i looked at this...
- Lender · CA · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 10k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Diane G.:
@ chris mason - BNC was NOT asking for Deed, they asked for ex closing statement, (1) which would show his loan amount, which property he took the loan against, so on and so forth, which I dont believe is public info at all....That is why I feel upset because I were to go up to anybody (as unrelated as an ex) and ask for his financial, guess which finger he is going to give??
AND it is really none of BNC business... you can't randomly go up to anyone and ask to see his financial just to prove that he did not use your name...
To me, it is ignorant and unthoughtfulness on BNC part... They just ask for anything they want without thinking... That is how i looked at this...
Hi Diane,
You can actually walk down to the county recorder's office to find those things out. Title companies aggregate the data and give access to it to real estate agents and mortgage lenders as a way of bribing us for business. "Wholesalers," etc, generally have to pay for it.
Loan amount, who took the loan out, and which property were mentioned. Here are those details for former Chairman of the Federal Reserve Ben Bernanke, along with who did the mortgage, if it was fixed or an ARM, government or conventional (which is correlated with FICO score), dates, term (30 v 15 year), etc. I looked it up for the first time years ago when his refinance application was denied. I've left his wife off since she is not a public figure, and left his address off as a courtesy.
When the refinance didn't just close five seconds or ten days ago, the request you got would have been less likely. The title company databases do not instantly update.
For purchase mortgages, you can see loan amount and price, which tells you down payment - if you pair this with gov't v conventional, you can sometimes guess about the rest of the person's financial picture. For example, 80% LTV FHA purchase mortgage tells you that someone had bruised credit. REI often value this information when door-knocking and mailer-mailing.
"I wonder if Ben Bernanke needs to refinance. Maybe I should send him some junk mail." <--- automate and aggregate that, and that's how all the junk mail from the real estate and mortgage industries sometimes ends up being so particular and accurate. (Actually rates in Q4 2011 were in the high 3s/low 4s, and he took that as a fixed rate at the time, so Mr. Bernanke does not need to refinance)
- 9yDiane G.CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesOP
Lol @ Chris mason... This is all too funny... Guess none of us really have much of any privacy!!!!!
OK that is pretty fun... At any rate, I am not going to ask ex to provide that info as I can roughly imagine what I will get back... So I am going to tell BNC they can and should get it themselves...
Thanks a lot
- Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
@Diane G.
I'm with you. It's a stupid request. Why do they need to see some unrelated party's (ex-husband) closing statement? The lien release of the loan that you took jointly is all they need. You have lots of choices in lender and it seems worth availing yourself of other ones.
When I closed on my first home 19 years ago, I took a fancy Mont Blanc pen that my wife had given me for an anniversary to the closing. The title company said I couldn't use it because it was blue and black pen was required to copy better... I came very close to just standing up and walking away. I'll bet my (large company) builder would have changed the closing official's mind, but given I was young and it was my first house, I put up with it. I'm closing on two investments in the next 30 days. I guarantee if title company or seller's agent try the same thing this time (I will bring a blue pen), I will walk out, and if they push it, I will sue to get my earnest money back too, even though it will probably cost more than the deposit amount. :-)
- Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
If they say to jump up and dance a jig I won't do it either. There were no bank, federal, state or county regulations that say I can't sign in blue ink. Technically could have been purple crayon if it was legible. This was the title company not the lender. The lender was the builder's captive lender and it was a VA loan too, so there were rules about adding arbitrary qualifications. Maybe they've had an issue with people signing in disappearing ink and welshing on their loans...
- Investor · Buckeye, AZ · Member since 2017 · 1 post · 0 votes9y
Diane - Mortgage lending is nothing more than a process or checks and validating. It sounds like either the underwriter reviewed fraudguard or the lender selected your file for a qc review. The request is very standard and you have to ask yourself if the terms and hassle to date are worth flushing only to restart the process. You typically cannot utilize the existing appraisal if you switch lenders so redundant cost could influence your decision. I would ask the loan officer if they could escalate this condition to the underwriting manager and provide alternative options, they need to document the liability you were contractually obligate to has been satisfied. Mers would be one option. Good luck.
- Real Estate Agent · Washington, D.C. · Member since 2012 · 17k+ posts · 30k+ votes9y
Originally posted by @Scott L.:
@Diane G.
I'm with you. It's a stupid request. Why do they need to see some unrelated party's (ex-husband) closing statement? The lien release of the loan that you took jointly is all they need. You have lots of choices in lender and it seems worth availing yourself of other ones.
When I closed on my first home 19 years ago, I took a fancy Mont Blanc pen that my wife had given me for an anniversary to the closing. The title company said I couldn't use it because it was blue and black pen was required to copy better... I came very close to just standing up and walking away. I'll bet my (large company) builder would have changed the closing official's mind, but given I was young and it was my first house, I put up with it. I'm closing on two investments in the next 30 days. I guarantee if title company or seller's agent try the same thing this time (I will bring a blue pen), I will walk out, and if they push it, I will sue to get my earnest money back too, even though it will probably cost more than the deposit amount. :-)
Blue ink is required in all states I do business in. If you refused to sign in blue ink you would be end up in front of the adminsitrative judge and would lose.
District Invest Group545 Reviews - Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
Originally posted by @Russell Brazil:
Originally posted by @Scott L.:
@Diane G.
I'm with you. It's a stupid request. Why do they need to see some unrelated party's (ex-husband) closing statement? The lien release of the loan that you took jointly is all they need. You have lots of choices in lender and it seems worth availing yourself of other ones.
When I closed on my first home 19 years ago, I took a fancy Mont Blanc pen that my wife had given me for an anniversary to the closing. The title company said I couldn't use it because it was blue and black pen was required to copy better... I came very close to just standing up and walking away. I'll bet my (large company) builder would have changed the closing official's mind, but given I was young and it was my first house, I put up with it. I'm closing on two investments in the next 30 days. I guarantee if title company or seller's agent try the same thing this time (I will bring a blue pen), I will walk out, and if they push it, I will sue to get my earnest money back too, even though it will probably cost more than the deposit amount. :-)
Blue ink is required in all states I do business in. If you refused to sign in blue ink you would be end up in front of the adminsitrative judge and would lose.
That's interesting, because this was in Texas in 1998 (before the Federal Digital Signature Act) and they were telling me I could NOT sign in blue ink, had to be black. But I'm interested what laws require a particular color for a valid signature and on what particular documents? When I was in the Navy in the 1980's we had to do all our official forms in black ink.
But today? What states, and what documents? I assume they train the notaries in these states as to the acceptable ink colors for what particular documents. And is it specified on the document and in the contracts, or by state law? Must the documents be executed, in person, in the state of jurisdiction? I could potentially see this for court documents being executed in court in front of the judge, but on a normal closing? I'm pretty sure HUD, FHA, VA, etc. don't specify ink color. I guess the county recorder where the deed is titled could say, but I can guarantee you they didn't require it in Denton County, Texas in 1998...
- Investor · Towson, MD · Member since 2014 · 472 posts · 257 votes9y@Diane G. your lender IS entitled to this information; it's not an invasion of privacy. He isn't a random off the street, it's your ex that you co-owned property with in a community state. You can change lenders, but you'll be required to give it to the new lender too. you can be offended all you would like, but you don't decide what's required. so either provide what they're requesting, or continue to rent. your choice.
- Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes9y
Many people (especially tenants) use "invasion of privacy" as some sort of legal sounding excuse to not produce information. Why not simply just tell them no, I'm not contacting my ex, I've provided my documentation to prove I wasn't a party to the transaction. If their systems don't allow them to override this requirement, walk until you find a lender than can override it. I wouldn't feel offended though, its just their requirement and business decision based upon the level of risk they want to take.
- Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
Maybe it's not legally prohibited, but if this data isn't already available in public records, it seems kind of stupid for the lender to ask for it. The borrower has no power to compel her ex to give it up. What if they weren't on good terms? Maybe the bank is discriminating based on marital status.... ;-) Ever think of that? They're telling her she has to get 'permission' from her ex-husband to see his closing doc for a transaction that she is not a party to... What if ex is buying it with his new girlfriend or boyfriend and doesn't want her to know?
- 9yDiane G.CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votesOP
@ michael cohen - in the divorce decree from 5 years ago, it stated that particular rental property is his going forward... And I also provided letter from WF stating the joint loan has been paid off.... So it is NOT a community property by any means... BNC is asking for a settlement statement from a unrelated 3rd party regarding his sole property.... How is that not invasion?
Now if as @ Chris Martin said, this is not private info any way, that is a totally diff story... BNC should just go grab it themselves....
- Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2016 · 156 posts · 113 votes9y
Hi Diane,
I'm sorry you're going through the situation with your bank but don't feel offended. It's nothing personal - the bank is trying to protect themselves as well ensure the tightest underwriting process especially if you're in a community state and the property is in a community state.
If BNC pulled your credit report and your previous rental property is listed as a debt, but you're explaining to them that your ex is going to remove you as a co-borrower or guarantor, then BNC will change their underwriting analysis to reflect your current situation. However, the lender needs to verify that you are not held as a guarantor or liable for your ex's loan in case it becomes default because California is a community property state. If you are still on the loan, then the lender needs to verify that you are able to service all debt including the property with your ex and your new refinanced loan.
I think the bank chose to request the settlement statement because it's the easiest way for them to ensure you're not on your ex's loan and the loan actually closing. If you wanted to wait until the loan is off your credit report, you can wait an additional 30+ days for it to be removed and another credit report fee charged by the bank (usually about $30-$60) but your refinance closing could be delayed also.
You could also provide other documents like a Deed of Trust however this might take a while to retrieve and also delay your closing date.
If you are in a community state and/or have property in a community state with a spouse, it makes loan underwriting a little more difficult because there are situations where spouses and ex-spouses will become responsible for debt when the partner is in a bad financial situation.
Again, don't feel offended. Banks are required to adhere to government regulations, guidance, loan policies, and blah blah to ensure they're underwriting the loan properly and ensuring a borrower's ability to repay to protect their capital (which is standard). If you still feel uncomfortable about the bank underwriting process, ask your lender to thoroughly explain the process to help ease any concerns. You also have the options to procure hard money (probably not the cheapest option but they don't have as many regulations and requirements) and non-traditional funds.Hope this helps & best and luck,
-Your friendly bank analyst Kysha ^_^ - Frisco, TX · Member since 2017 · 201 posts · 95 votes9y
Originally posted by @Diane G.:
Guys - thank you for your inputs... My DTI is 25% ish....
Wells Fargo did provide a letter stating the joint mortgage is now paid off, which I sent to BNC... So they know it is paid off.... Their question is what if the ex took out a new loan and has my name on it....To me, that is no different than asking any random person in the street to prove that they did not use your name to take out a mortgage...
And yes, I did tell BNC that I take it as invasion of other people's privacy... I, fortunately, have a lot of choices in terms of which lender I want to go with...So they can go fxxx themselves if they insist on that request....
I just wanted to know if that is a out of place request....I dont want to be un-reasonable... They should not be either...
I don't know how quickly mortgages are recorded where you live, but if the mortgage is recorded that makes it public record and the mortgage states who it was granted to (your ex, or you and your ex). It may be that it's too soon for them to see a digital version of the mortgage so they need you to provide a copy. They are covering their bases and I would guess that since you were on the mortgage for that property before the refi, they need to ensure that you are NOT on the new mortgage. For all they know your divorce kept the property in your name and his name. I think they are being smart and they likely have run into this situation before and got burnt.
- Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
So banks are required by regulation or prudence to require documents that are not within the power nor authority of the borrower to access? The ex-husband's closing statement for a loan that he procures after his divorce is the business of the ex-wife's lender how? The original joint loan is already paid. The lean release is proof. The new loan is not the concern of the OP's bank, because it is not her loan, either personally or jointly. Community property state is irrelevant to two people who are not married. There is no more liability or interest in the ex-spouse's post divorce financial transactions. The sole concern of the lender should be that Diane is no longer liable for the joint loan because it is paid in full and the lien released. She has no duty nor authority to reveal the private financial dealings of her ex-spouse.
- Frisco, TX · Member since 2017 · 201 posts · 95 votes9y
@Scott L. @Diane G.
As I stated, if there is no way for the lending bank to see the new mortgage online yet but Diane can get a copy of the mortgage by going/sending someone to the registry/courthouse to show that her name is NOT on the mortgage, I think they are within their rights. Should they have requested this from her instead of the closing statement? Maybe. Should they have hired their own researcher to check it out at the registry/courthouse? Probably. That would have been the best path. But mortgages don't HAVE to be recorded immediately in the states that I am familiar with. Doing so simply is good practice as first in time means first in line (MA and NH).
Back in 2003-2007, the Registry of Deeds was so busy with real estate transactions that it was hard for them to keep up with the recordings and the indexing was VERY far behind. It was not uncommon for DISCHARGES to not be recorded for MONTHS (one of mine was not recorded for over a year). This could be a problem in a case where Someone buys and then refinances shortly after and then tries to sell it. The lender they refi'd with knows the 1st was discharged, but the next lender does not because the document isn't recorded and/or indexed. It was not uncommon to have to provide your own/certified copies or closing documents to show that prior mortgage had been satisfied. Especially if there were multiple lenders in the chain. Does that make sense?
Bottom line is, until they are satisfied that she is NOT on the new loan, they aren't going to lend her the money she needs now. In MA and NH, mortgage info is public record. No idea about other states. - Investor · Flower Mound, TX · Member since 2017 · 182 posts · 198 votes9y
In Texas the deed of trust is public record, but the loan documents are not. The lien releases are recorded too. Diane said she already provided the lien release to the bank. That's presumably public record or certainly within her right to obtain since she was on the original loan. But how is the ex's new loan related to her mortgage? Maybe the bank wants to make sure he didn't get a car loan and put her name on the loan...Maybe her next door neighbor declared bankruptcy and the bank wants to make sure Diane doesn't hold any claims against the bankruptcy estate so they want her to pull the neighbor's credit report..... Maybe her loan application was in blue ink.... :-).
- Real Estate Broker · Cleveland, OH · Member since 2017 · 719 posts · 658 votes9y
You can make fun all you want but your ex knows your SSN and you never know how he can use it.
I'm checking my credit reports routinely once a month or at least quarterly. When I was separated and lived on my own more than a year, I found inquiry from a bank on my name. Because it was S&L, I've got that someone was trying to get a mortgage on my name.
I called my ex (we have good relationship) and confronted him. He said that they wouldn't give him that HELOC anyway. So, if they would - I'd be on the mortgage! And I was still married legally.
Banks don't check marriage records but they do need your signature on the docs. Which could be forged.
I bet the underwriter ask for that info bot because they are bored or have nothing better to do. They've just seen all kinds of fraud and cover their basis
There is nothing personal: take it or leave it.
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