It's Feeling a Lot Like 2007

It's Feeling a Lot Like 2007

Real Estate Agent · Sebastopol, CA · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 161 votes

Hi All, 

Wanted to start a discussion on peoples outlook on the real estate market and the economy in general. I know it is a controversial topic but I have not seen many discussions on BiggerPocket on this topic and I believe they are important conversations to have. 

Here are my general thoughts on the topic. 

Economies always go through cycles and we are coming up on the longest bull market era in history. If history is any indication of the future their have always been corrections or crashes every 8-10 years. 

Data

1. Interest rates are rising and the yield curve is flattening a tell tale sign of future growth expectations are declining

2. Corporations are turning to stock buybacks because they cannot find internal or M&A returns that can get a high enough return. Once buybacks are done will corporations begin to "restructure" or contract leading to layoffs and the downward spiral of layoff, people not buying as many goods and services leading to more layoffs. 

3. Inflation is another worry when prices begin to increase at a higher rate after almost a century of 2% inflation people are going to be inclined to buy less leading to the ugly spiral as well. 

4. In the stock market is extremely over prices with PE ratios being the highest they have ever been.

5. Housing prices especially in California have increase much more rapidly then wage increases and I do not see this as a sustainable recipe.

There are many other factors and coming from an analytical background i know there are ways to spin the numbers to make it look any way you want. 

I cannot time the market and nor do I think anyone can but I am writing this post to get others perspectives about where we are and what they think of the future outlook of the economy. With the ways things are, my guess is there will be at least a big correction in 2019 or 2020 but I could be way off as well. 

I would like to get peoples opinions on both sides. I am not someone stuck in my ways and truly believe that debating with someone that has complete opposite views is the best way to learn in life. 

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Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
8y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

The economy needs a good cleansing of bad fed zirp policy.  It has so distorted the economy.   EZ money means asset prices go up.....what has happened ,   asset prices have gone up.

Out of staters buying in the HOOD is always a bad sign.  So whats the play here.   Capital gains play?

 out of state buying in the HOOD has been going on for about 25 years that I know of.. with no stop in sight.   

there was a thread last week titled

" thank you bigger pockets  0 to 15 doors in one year"

Well that got at least 200 responses of which 197 of them were way to go congrats I cant wait to do what you did ..

well what did that investor do.. he ripped a bunch of equity out of his prime CA residence and paid cash for D class in the mid west 

little plex's that have 400 dollar renters in them..  to me I am like OK.... you leverage the family home buy the toughest rentals on the planet and 97% of the people on this site want to do the same thing and cant wait to do the same thing.. so that's your mind set.. 

I hope it works for that guy.. but folks just don't know what they don't know.. and there is this irrational exuberance to get doors at any cost because its the way to financial freedom   ( what ever that means).. for most it means I guess being self employed.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 6 votes
    8y

    I think it is amazing that people have already begun to forget the lessons of 2008. I was one of the people back then, yes I was young and ready to rule the world, who paid way to much for something that was not worth it.

    Probably my biggest lesson was learning to ask myself a simple question: "Is this worth what they are asking".

    This has probably kept me from buying many properties but if it has saved me from buying a bad one than it is worth asking. I live in Palm Beach County, FL and we see some huge property value changes. The property I reference above I originally purchased for $155K. At the crash of the market I was able to short sell it for $27K. Today, it currently has a value on Zillow with many recent comp sales at $170K. This is a 1955, 800 SqFt house...nothing to write home about. Ever since then, I look at the price per sqft when evaluating homes and I use that house as an indicator of the sanity of the market in the area.

  • West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2018 · 7 posts · 6 votes
    8y

    Currently I am working on starting my rental portfolio and I have to admit I am struggling to find a financially sound investment up to this point. Not sure who mentioned it earlier in this post but it seems like everyone is buying tons of doors but I don't understand for one minute how they plan on making money!

    I have evaluated over 50 properties and made only 1 offer. In some cases because the financials simply don't work, it most cases because they are grabbed up too quickly at full price offers. At first I though I was too conservative, but now I think that some of the opinions above regarding coastal investors bidding up OOS markets could be to blame.

  • Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    8y
    @John M. Yes this thread was very helpful to this newbie lol. I'm currently going back and forth on what my next move should be. I currently have 3 properties 2 of them are rentals and have a decent cash flow and have over a ton equity..... but itching to buy another property in an area I love and rent my current home. My concern is would I be leveraging myself too much? Should I pay down debt first (only debt I have is mortgage and car payment) and save until the market goes down? Or do I go for it if I find a killer deal. I'm so torn.
  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    Inflation normally accompanied a healthy economy with low unemployment. Since the economy is actually good right now by all classic measurements I don’t see any upcoming housing recession. I do see house prices normalizing on the case-Schiller interest rate vs house price chart which is what we would covet at the middle to the end of a boom cycle . So hot markets are generally flat right now but that doesn’t indicate a recessiin just an end to the bargain shopping many of us took advantage of after the crash. The dumb money is still buying for sure
  • Engineer · Portland, OR · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y
    @Victor S. tax advantaged dividend yields on major market index funds are still better than short term interest rate vehicles. As long as that’s true by inflation staying in bounds I don’t see rising PE’s and stock buybacks being a big issue
  • Rental Property Investor · Las Vegas, NV · Member since 2018 · 133 posts · 171 votes
    8y

    @Yesenia Padilla glad you found it informative, I think it's important for people to understand that real estate isn't without it's risks, especially if you go heavy on the leverage.

    It sounds like you have a good start for a newbie, and good you are thinking about leverage.  It's hard to say what's right for each person, since everyone has different economic circumstances.  Personally I use the rule of thumb that if the economy tanked, I lost my job, and my rental cash flow was cut in half for a year would I still be able to eat, pay my bills and service the debt on my properties?  As long as I can answer yes then it doesn't matter if the real estate market crashes and my properties lose 50% of their value or even go to zero (not likely, lol) because as long as I can service the debt, then I can ride out any bad period unscathed.  I think you may just need to take a hard look at your numbers and run a few hypothetical scenarios of an economic pull back to determine what you are comfortable with? 

  • Rental Property Investor · Sacramento, CA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 7 votes
    8y
    @John M. Thank you so much! I think the 50% rule will help me make a final decision.
  • Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2016 · 39 posts · 6 votes
    8y
    Good discussion. Still too much capital flowing around. The buy-the-dips mentality is diehard. Just curious if anyone saw any cracks yet in areas hit by trade war, tariffs? Before a large scale deleverage, these soft spots may be quicker to tell than more robust economy areas
  • Rental Property Investor · Woodinville, WA · Member since 2017 · 23 posts · 33 votes
    8y
    @Jay Hinrichs We're Dave Ramsey people and our only debts are on rei. Carrying the nut on them is possible if they all go vacant today. Fun? No. Doable? Yes
  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Dylan Mathias

    They have a saying that every general is fighting the last war.

    2008 was a once in a generation (or 2 generation) occurrence. You’re going to be in for a world of hurt if you base your investment decision based off that.

    Lending is way tighter and strictly regulated than before. No 0% down loans, no no-income loans.

    Is the market heated? Sure

    Is it 2007? Not at all. Or rather, indicators do not point to that.

    Also, the next recession/downturn will be something we never saw coming. Predicting the future based on the past is an exercise in futility.

    Also this topic has been discussed ad-nauseam on the forums. Surprised you couldn’t find anyone discussing it.

    My simple solution: Sell, go into cash and aggressively buy on the dip. Otherwise, it’s all talk.

    @Jay Hinrichs

    As always, bringing the perspective. I always lol when people say financial freedom and then go buy Class D properties in the middle of nowhere (compared to Cali).

    What kind of freedom is inheriting other people’s problems?

  • Investor · Jersey City, NJ · Member since 2016 · 84 posts · 11 votes
    8y
    @Dylan Mathias a lot of experts have said they expect a correction in 2019 or 2020. I don't think you're going out on a limb there. Personally I think prices will stay stagnant. I don't see a crash but more of a slowdown in the next few years.
  • Financial Advisor · Wayne, PA · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    8y
    @Dylan Mathias “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes” -Mark Twain. I don’t know enough about your situation to say jump in, but I will say that people that face the inevitable tend to succeed more than those who worry. The market will crash (statistically the Dow is down 20% or more ever 3.75 years), interest rates will rise higher, you will have personal challenges, but opportunity will always be there. I will say, crunch the numbers and if they look good...then make sure you have enough in your cash reserve to weather the inevitable storm ahead so you are still in business when the sun shines. Good luck!
  • Hurst, TX · Member since 2016 · 192 posts · 114 votes
    8y

    A crash can be great for us REI debtors. I remember the last one, property values dropped, taxes dropped, interest rates dropped so we were refinancing our properties to 15yr notes and our monthly payments actually dropped! Win win win ;)

  • Olathe, KS · Member since 2018 · 148 posts · 207 votes
    8y

    It feels to me like people are chasing gains because of how low the interest rates are.  Stock market, housing, heck even my collectible items are accelerating up as people search for somewhere to park their cash that might make something over normal interest rates.

    It doesn't seem like it's ready to slow down yet on anything.  Earlier this year it felt like it was until the tax cuts kicked in.  The one thing makes me a little uneasy about this cycle is how everyone is buying outside their area.  Internationals are buying California, California is buying the midwest, the midwest is getting too expensive, etc.  Like when I talk to an agent in KC and he tells me that two buyers from Cali are buying up all his properties, that seems like behavior that isn't sustainable longer term, as the economics from one area are going to price out the economics of the other.

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 84 posts · 54 votes
    8y
    @Dan Bayard I’m with you too, I couldn’t understand how other ppl will make good cash flow on rental properties at this time. I supposedly buying 10 properties this year, but I ended up getting 6 properties only. I analyzed almost 100 properties this year so far.
  • Lender · Carlsbad, CA · Member since 2016 · 90 posts · 56 votes
    8y
    @Dylan Mathias I think we are due a correction, but you have to remember that pre-2007 we were giving loans out like candy. Gardner making 500k per year? 700 credit? Sure! Buy those 5 rentals! Since that point finance has swung the opposite way. Massive documentation and vetting, no neg-am, etc. So I think it is far more built on the rock. I am in San Diego and the market has increased a lot, but demand still seems to strip out supply. Builders have a good outlook obviously because they are building like crazy. I think a slight correction is probably right, but potentially due to interest rate increases. Not fundamental flaws in an overblown market. Buyers care about payment, sellers care about price. So I see a softening, but not a bubble, and certainly not 2007-ish. My two cents - could be wrong as my wife will remind you... Daniel Lehman
  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2018 · 84 posts · 54 votes
    8y
    @Dylan Mathias You’re absolutely right! I think the market will start cooling off sometimes next year or 2020, but I‘m feeling it won‘t be down to the recession level. I’m so grateful to be able to buy my 2nd house in year 2010 while no one was buying at that time.
  • Investor · Greater Chicago Area and Northwest Indiana · Member since 2018 · 138 posts · 42 votes
    8y

    This is a pretty interesting article on when the next crash will begin.  Year of 2024.

    https://www.extension.harvard.edu/inside-extension...

    The market can turn at any time however but I find it pretty accurate if all things go as planned.  Unfortunately, not all things go as planned.  I see another terrorist attack (hope this doesn't happen) on the U.S. soil bigger then 9/11.  This type of attack should be enough to disrupt the real estate markets.

  • Real Estate Agent · Sebastopol, CA · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 161 votes
    8y

    @Caroline Widjaja

    You got in at the perfect time and congrats on accomplishing that! My brother was old enough to get into the market doing an auction deal in 2009-2010 and did extremely well too. 

  • Real Estate Agent · Sebastopol, CA · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 161 votes
    8y

    @Daniel Lehman

    Daniel i think you are correct. They are more strict on giving out loan and how they are qualifying people. I think you are right though. I don't think housing prices will decrease as much as they did but demand will increase.  It is really hard to say because there are so many factors that can swing something one way or another. 

    With that being said 2008 was cause by real estate and faulty collateralized loans. I do not believe the next recession will be caused by the same fundamentals. I believe the next recession will be cause by some other fundamental in the economy, say personal debt and that will have a domino effect on the real estate industry because everything is so tied together. 

    On a side note I just left Qualcomm in San Diego and am currently working for them remotely from NorCal. Lived in San Diego for 3 years and absolutely love it there. Carlsbad is one of the best places to be!

  • Real Estate Agent · Sebastopol, CA · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 161 votes
    8y

    @Omar Khan

    I do not think it will be as bad as 2008. I am also not saying anyone should try and time of predict the market. I am in a situation where I just graduated from college with a finance degree. I worked full time throughout college so I didn't have student loans and was fortunate enough to land a job at a fortune 500 company in my second year of college so I actually came out of college with a good amount of money in the bank. I worked during the day and went to school at night. 

    I just turned 24 and have some money but cannot find a deal that can cash flow in my area. There was an average 2 bedroom 2 bath house that just sold in my town for 800K. People are buying over asking price or at asking price and anything that comes on the market is quickly bought up. 

    It seems like my only option to even find a decent deal is to go out of state and I personally do not believe that is the best idea for my first investment. 

    What would you said someone in my situation should do?

  • Real Estate Agent · Sebastopol, CA · Member since 2017 · 56 posts · 161 votes
    8y
    Originally posted by @Mark Malcein:
    @Dylan Mathias

    “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes” -Mark Twain.

    I don’t know enough about your situation to say jump in, but I will say that people that face the inevitable tend to succeed more than those who worry. The market will crash (statistically the Dow is down 20% or more ever 3.75 years), interest rates will rise higher, you will have personal challenges, but opportunity will always be there. I will say, crunch the numbers and if they look good...then make sure you have enough in your cash reserve to weather the inevitable storm ahead so you are still in business when the sun shines.

    Good luck!

     @Mark Malcein

    I am in a situation where I just graduated from college with a finance degree. I worked full time throughout college so I didn't have student loans and was fortunate enough to land a job at a fortune 500 company in my second year of college so I actually came out of college with a good amount of money in the bank. I worked during the day and went to school at night.

    I just turned 24 and have some money but cannot find a deal that can cash flow in my area. There was an average 2 bedroom 2 bath house that just sold in my town for 800K. People are buying over asking price or at asking price and anything that comes on the market is quickly bought up.

    It seems like my only option to even find a decent deal is to go out of state and I personally do not believe that is the best idea for my first investment.

    What would you said someone in my situation should do?

  • Flipper/Rehabber · East Brunswick, NJ · Member since 2018 · 64 posts · 152 votes
    8y
    Funny I read this this morning. Last night, doing some research and said to my self, “The Correction Has Begun!”
  • Real Estate Agent · Cupertino, CA · Member since 2016 · 4k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    The clue come from job numbers. This cycle in Silicon Valley & SFBA it is the stock options that precipitate the craze. Can you blame momentum high tech companies throwing huge wage and stock incentives by giving away freebies? These workers will not worth 1/3 what they are getting if they go to another US city. These companies are funded by investment companies and are mostly gambling better technology will produce corporate profits. Many of these high flyers are milking the Dot Com failed ideas. Some ideas get now more support than 10-15 years ago because of better wireless technology. Likewise can we use another social media or bed breakfast or cash out payment systems?

    I watched the movie "The Big Short" and contemplate if another crisis is coming this way. This time housing crisis will be based on not having incomes to pay for mortgage. Last time it was the subprime mortgage that costed US 3 trillion dollars and created 2 million homeless families. If the stocks took a 20% loss in value as proposed you will immediate see funding not coming from the VC bankers. Sharp decrease in options.  You will see people stop buying homes and more are opt to unload due to job losses.  The inflation figures reported do not include food and cheap energy. The unemployment figures of 1.5% here does not include people who are stop working.   

    Mark Cuban, Michael Burry have the instints when to stop. Both come from blue collar class and put the break on before others. They put their money in the bank already.  Only the fools think there is no end to a growth. Leverage and use borrowed cheap money for future expansions.  We are close to another melt down and this time it can be from fiscal policy or some fundamentals pointed out by Dylan and others.      


  • Rental Property Investor · Dallas, TX · Member since 2017 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    8y

    @Dylan Mathias First of all, congrats. You are better than most, if not all, of us if you managed to graduate without crippling student debt by working your tail off. Maybe we should take lessons from you ;)

    You are 100% correct. I wouldn't recommend investing out of state for your first deal. The prices in California are super high but Cali also has a prosperous population (relative to areas where the house prices are not as high). 

    Can you find a better deal in other parts of the country? Absolutely. 

    Will they have, on average, the same combination of cash flow and capital appreciation? Doubtful. 

    I had a similar issue when I lived in Toronto. Everything cost an insane amount of money. But there is a reason for that - deep buyer pool and constrained supply. 

    Plus, everyone want to live in Sonoma County!

    Keep plugging away in your local area by connecting with local investors, attending meetups (warning: most are sales pitches) and networking. 

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