Okay so I have a buyer's agent who I work with to view investment properties and to evaluate deals however he lives about 50 miles away and can only get to me to see properties once a week. So I met another agent at a REI meeting and she lives closer, can act as a buyer's agent, can submit multiple low offers, will help with rehab management (since I have a full-time job), can list the property, provide property management services and also potentially set me up as a "personal assistant" to get MLS access after a relationship is built.
So it sounds like a good fit however I talked to her about getting wholesale deals that wouldn't involve an agent. I mentioned that I would need comps run on these potential deals and asked if she would be okay with running them however she mentioned there would be a $50 fee each time I run comps on a potential deal. She mentioned she would be essentially do a BPO and would have to charge $50 for it. Has anyone else come across their buyer's agent charging for comps for wholesale deals?
I completely disagree.
The fact that she refuses to pull comps for some random guy who has never bought a property through her and who is going to use those comps on wholesale deals where the agent has 0% chance of earning any commission, tells me that this agent has done this before and realizes that most investors are tire kickers and will do nothing more than waste her time.
Like I said above, once she makes some money off him (i.e., he proves he's not a tire kicker), then things change. U
Henry - Will you come wash my car for me for free if I promise to help you some money later? That's basically what Derek is asking...
JScott, So I appreciate the response. However, not everybody looks like Will Gardner from the TV show "The Good Wife" nor do they have his wallet.
With that said, lets keep in mind you OFFERED to pay your Realtor, which is fine but the industry standard is running CMAs (not BPOs) are done with no charge. Just the same as a title company running a preliminary title search without charge. Why is that? Because title companies in the grand scheme of things see the big picture.
As for your GC analogy, that is not your best moment. I respect your comments usually and your body of work but you need to bring your A game to justify a nickle and dime charge like that.
Joel, you have vindicated yourself my friend... Great comment.
Derek, I'm impressed with you and now am disturbed why this Realtor is or was acting this way when to me you have simple common sense and from what I interpret real estate experience.
I wouldn't sign a listing agreement upfront unless as Derek stated you place some stipulations based on performance.
Derek maybe you can stipulate everyone she brings to show the property who doesn't buy, she should pay a $50 fee until she proves her capacity to sell your property. You would refund her fees upon the sale of your property.
What do you think?
Absurd isn't it?
I am only kidding but that is how ridiculous a charge like that comes across.
Everyone's time is important, but we are all in this real estate business self-employed. Not to waste each other's time and never to nickle and dime you like some GC's may try to do.
BTW JScott, you never mentioned the car you drive...
Big Henry
Henry -
Normally, my wife relegates me (and the dog) to my 15 year old Nissan Pathfinder...
Btw, that Will Gardner guy could be my cousin's twin...definitely see the resemblance with me as well...not sure if that's a good thing... ;-)
JScott, I thought you would like that.
Let me ask you a question, do you believe your experience and the dynamics of your position (wife Realtor, you the GC, wife the staging expert, etc.) that your response to this topic may be skewed?
Let me explain, maybe you were not rich and I will give you credit with a creative way to access the MLS in your area especially early on. But your intentions are about control and profit. A case in point, your wife a Realtor, owning your own staging furniture, being your own GC, etc.
To think that someone (investor) would ask let's say your wife to run CMAs without benefit to you or her unless a transaction takes place or there are some reassurances that she locks into a future commission for the DD assistance she may provide to investor by way of agreement...
My point is not every investor has the capacity to pay $30/hour or $50/CMA, not every investor has the ability to drop $1K to try and retrieve a license to use the MLS, not every investor has the luxury of driving a Pathfinder or even have a beautiful wife to relegate them.
Why should we assume that Derek is a deadbeat tire kicker. Remember the Golden Rule. I personally have made it a mission to help those that are new to the business as when I first started out I had two real estate brokers laugh and scoff at me when I told them I wanted to buy properties with little to no money down. Of course later proving them wrong 10X over.
If I was a Realtor and Derek approached me (showing me his capacity and intelligence/experience on the subject), I would run his CMAs w/o question at no charge. Why? Educational purposes, experience, investment in another, and the Golden Rule.
To Nickle & Dime Derek would create a distance that this is business, however because of that gap, a relationship may not form. Just like yours with your OG agent. See I see the big picture and it is the relationship that will pay dividends later.
Just as in the case of looking at an ugly home and envisioning the potential behind the mold (thought you might like that)... With some TLC, it will eventually produce.
I personally am about relationships and believe creating networks or connections is only the tip of the iceberg.
Derek, this is for you. If I sat with you and we shared our expectations with one another, how apt would you be to remain loyal.
See JScott, what someone says and what someone does are two different things... What someone does in the end is what they intended to do all along. Some people will use others for gain or leverage. Some are in it for the long haul. If I cater to Derek and I provide a great property and line him up with a qualified buyer, how likely will Derek come back to me.
See JScott, if I washed your Pathfinder once, twice, three times a lady... Lol, got off task there... It will only be a matter of time before you would dump me to save a buck or two. This is why you may have paid for that agent's time... So you cover that base. This however, may not be the case for Derek.
Lastly, to advocate such a charge from your perspective may be coming from a biased or skewed view point.
Let me know your thoughts.
BTW, Will Gardner was a compliment;)
Big Henry
Why is everyone so hot under the collar about this thread? The OP is mad that the agent doesn't want to pull comps for free. Big deal. Pay the money or find someone cheaper.
I wouldn't run comps for someone for free unless I knew I was going to get paid for doing so.
I think you should either offer this agent a lower price than the $50 she is asking for, or find an agent that believes he or she will profit from you and is willing to invest the time.
This reminds me of the time I needed an electrician to secure a panel to the basement wall because it wasn't attached right. I called a guy and he wanted $275. It was a five minute job. I didn't whine about his price. I found a different guy that did the job for $75.
I wouldn't run comps for someone for free unless I knew I was going to get paid for doing so.
I think you should either offer this agent a lower price than the $50 she is asking for, or find an agent that believes he or she will profit from you and is willing to invest the time.
This reminds me of the time I needed an electrician to secure a panel to the basement wall because it wasn't attached right. I called a guy and he wanted $275. It was a five minute job. I didn't whine about his price. I found a different guy that did the job for $75.
Rob, my friend... No one is hot under the collar. Everyone has there opinion. In my case, I believe we have a duty here to help newbies in the business. I personally would never pay for CMAs... And 2nd, it is about building a relationship.
It is simple as you put it until we get into what is time worth or intentions or in this case, what is the industry norm...
This thread will be an example for someone new to the business and learn one way or the other. This is what truly makes BP great. Another eight years later, this post will survive the test of time.
Derek was not whining, he was curious about the norm.
Big Henry
A few things that might help to explain my position:
- First, I don't know where the $50 per CMA came from. That's a ridiculous number. If it takes 15 minutes to run a basic comp analysis, and an agent is worth about $30/hour, that's $7.50 per CMA. I think that's reasonable.
- Second, the discussion for most of this thread I assumed was around an agent that was being asked to supply a service that had no possibility to generate a return (pulling comps for a property he was wholesaling). It later was clarified that he would be using the agent for any properties where she contributed time and he purchased the house. These are very different scenarios in my mind.
- In the first scenario (no shot of agent getting paid for this work and never have gotten paid by doing a transaction for this buyer in the past), I still stand by my assertion that she should charge. I can't tell you how many times I volunteer my time to new investors who just want to ask me questions, want to get my opinion on something, etc. I don't mind doing it, but I recognize that most of them never, ever start investing, and that if I were giving my time to them in expectation of getting paid at some point, I'd be sadly disappointed.
- I have a real estate license in addition to my wife (I'm not the GC, btw, we have a full-time project manager and I know less about construction than my 3-year old :), and I run CMAs for people all the time. In fact, I bet you could find a half-dozen investors here on BP that I've helped in the past with my MLS access. Many of them assure me that they'll eventually return the favor -- more times than not they don't do it (though many certainly do or at least try). I'm not upset about those that don't ever return the favor, but if I relied on all my time for my income, I'd be pissed when I provided a service and then never saw an opportunity to get paid.
- As for not every investor having the capacity to pay for comps, why is that an agent's problem? If the investor doesn't have the cash to buy the property, should the agent feel obligated to loan him money in addition to pulling comps? This is why I recommend every new investor get their license; if they can't afford to get their license, I recommend they save up, because if they can't afford $500 to get licensed, they are unlikely to be successful in this business.
- I'm not assuming Derek is a deadbeat tire kicker. I'm generalize that most new investors never do their first deal, and if Derek were a new investor, it's safe to assume that agent would never get paid. Once Derek mentioned that he owns some investment property, that certainly factored into my opinion.
- You mention how you proved brokers wrong by buying with little to no money. You are VERY MUCH an exception. 99.9% of people that try that don't succeed. I wouldn't expect an agent to go along with a new investor in the hopes that he ends up in the .1%.
Let's take Derek out of the equation and substitute him for a random newbie investor. In my experience, the chances of you benefiting from the relationship are extremely small.
If you're doing it out of the goodness of your heart (like you and I probably would be), that's one thing. But, if you're struggling to make ends meet (like his agent probably is), that's entirely different.
Henry - Based on what you've accomplished, I admire you a lot (I couldn't have done it, most likely). But, I get the impression that you're no longer in a place where you need to be looking out for where your next mortgage payment is coming from, and you can afford to donate your time without too much concern about whether you'll get (re-)paid for it.
Unfortunately, most real estate agents these days aren't in that situation...and that's the point of view that I like to keep in mind when I ask someone to help me with something...
I completely disagree.
The fact that she refuses to pull comps for some random guy who has never bought a property through her and who is going to use those comps on wholesale deals where the agent has 0% chance of earning any commission, tells me that this agent has done this before and realizes that most investors are tire kickers and will do nothing more than waste her time.
Like I said above, once she makes some money off him (i.e., he proves he's not a tire kicker), then things change. U
I agree with J Scott. Coming from the perspective of being an investor and having been a licensee a few years ago, I can see why she will want something for her time since you have done NO business with her what so ever. If you are going solely do wholesale deals, she knows good and well that she will never make a dime off of you.
It is very expensive to maintain your licensure, and realtors are hurting now. There are so many newbies running around who just got out of a Rich Dad weekend boot camp who want to try to play investor. 90% of these people go no where and never turn a deal. Maybe even higher than 90%.
Show this realtor that you're not a joker and that fee will disappear, I guarantee.
Or I saw someone suggest that you offer to pay her quarterly MLS dues and in turn she gives you access so that you can do your own grunt work and not bother her. She might go for that.
As for Mr. Once A Week Showings - he can keep his free comps. He's not really serving you at all.
Now that I could live with. Absolutely more reasonable than $50 per comp/deal. That is negotiation and a win-win as long as it was the MLS Quarterly Dues or at minimum two quarters and not the Realtor Monthly Dues.
I am sure 90% of Realtors are hurting just as Investors are hurting. Also keep in mind, when dealing with investors they are sometimes coming from areas that may be worth investing time in. Knowledge is power and it is not only what you know but who you know.
Keep in mind, some of these investors that pay money for programs, boot camps, or any education trying to find alternate means to support their family and dreams too. I wouldn't be so dismissive of these investors. I was there once, of course my drive and ambition was not going to be denied, sometimes you just need someone to believe in you. I didn't have that and I remember, to this day that still fuels me but I will never be guilty of not giving anyone my best, support, or being inaccessible.
This is a world of survival of the fittest... I understand that. This is why I will defend the 90% investors because one day, many will break through even if with only one property.
BIG HENRY
Henry - Based on what you've accomplished, I admire you a lot (I couldn't have done it, most likely). But, I get the impression that you're no longer in a place where you need to be looking out for where your next mortgage payment is coming from, and you can afford to donate your time without too much concern about whether you'll get (re-)paid for it.
Unfortunately, most real estate agents these days aren't in that situation...and that's the point of view that I like to keep in mind when I ask someone to help me with something...
I don't completely disagree with your last post. I do believe we both give back and pay it forward even when it doesn't seem to return but I'm sure you do agree, we do it for that one like us who needs that one piece of nugget of information to send them over.
Heck, I read one sentence in an entire program that reeled me off many properties which by the way I still use today (nugget of info)... Jason, guess who that was? William Joseph McCorkle... LOL!!! Go figure.
Anyways, I hear and respect your point and believe we all can give back. I was a foster and house parent for 18 years... Sometimes you don't always see the reap of the reward until 10 to 15 years later.
Jason, let me know when you are ready for me to wash your Pathfinder, b/c I know you will pay up... J/k
Nice dialogue Jason and others. Derek, I apologize for hijacking your post... Hehe, I think everyone knows where I stand.
BIG HENRY
First why do you need a Realtor to run comps? There all kinds of services out there for comps.
Secondly 50 bucks is cheap to gain asurances. If you can't afford real estate get out.
Lastly there are all kinds of agents who will whore themselves out for free so just find one if you really need one. Remember you get what you pay for.
Thanks Henry. I don't pretend to know a great deal about this but I know what I know and I don't know what I don't know and as I mentioned to Steve I have been studying and preparing a great deal within the last months to learn and understand the rehab side of the business. When I began investing years earlier I studied quite a bit as well but I didn't have the business-like approach and organization to make this a true business.
I got into some deals through family acquisitions as the need/opportunity arose and they have been really good throughout the years. The residential "investment" was not my fondest moment as I threw about $60,000 into it when I bought before the market burst but the rentals and land have been good as one rental has about 22 months left on the mortgage (both have good cash flow) and I have already recouped most of the expenses on the 50 or so acres of raw land through leasing it out for farming and hunting/fishing rights on the lake.
Now it is just about making sure that as I do my due diligence with the rehab business and put everything in place where my business structure is sound, have done sound market analysis and make sure that I have an effective team in place. I plan to use HMLs so it won't be as much on my own cash into the deals but I want to make sure when I put my cash into deals again that I am sure I have the experience/knowledge to get a great cash on cash return. The plan is to start in 2013 but I have been out now looking at properties and trying to get a feel for markets and understand how to effectively evaluate rehabs and I am open to the option to landing properties now and learning more as I actually do a rehab as that will probably be where the real learning takes place.
As far as your statement about creating a relationship......you are absolutely right.
Kim Knox Thanks for the comment and I understand protecting your time and creating parameters in a business relationship that will be respected by both parties.
Michael Quarles Michael check the 1st post on the top of page 3 in this thread as to my points about MLS comps and non MLS comps.
As far as the $50 fee, I am not concerned about the amount that was mentioned however I was concerned about the industry standard as it relates to comps. My question/point is that if most investors are getting free comps why should I pay for comps and that is why I brought the question up to the board. So for instance, if the market dictates that if most customers get a free appraisal when you take your car to the shop for repairs then why should you have to pay the diagnostic fee when that is not the norm?
J Scott and Joel Owens I really was fixated on creating my team and as as far as comps are concerned the options that we listed in the other post are fair (assistant status, listing agreement, cheaper monthly fee). However I think after talking to you all and Henry I think a real option may have to be to get licensed before hand. The goal was to always do it eventually but it might be best just to go ahead and knock it out now. Here in our state we have to put 60 hours into it however there is an online option and it only costs about $300-$400 for the class/book/exams. It might be worth it to delay working with a realtor and putting something under contract and just quickly knock this out in a month or so to put myself in a prime position for 2013 and not have to worry about it later. My goal is to do 5 projects in 2013 so I need everything finalized soon so I can start getting projects lined up for the new year.
Here in TEXAS just in case you are curious, is what we have to pay to become a Realtor:
==========================================
Here are the basic steps to file your Application for Salesperson License. Satisfy current education requirements totaling 180 hours all of which must be “core” real estate.
Six (6) are specifically mandated CORE classes – (60 hours of Principles of Real Estate; 30 hours of Law of Agency, 30 hours of Law of Contracts, 30 hours of Real Estate Finance, and 30 hours of Promulgated Contracts).
Select a Package
6-Course Program + Prep $933 (Save $147)
Our 6-course program includes the 6 TREC mandatory courses needed for pre-licensing education, the State Exam Prep Course, and our Real Estate Prep Flashcards.
Available Through
9-Course Comprehensive Program + Prep $1332 (Save $213)
Our complete 9-course program includes the 6 TREC mandatory courses (180 hours), the State Exam Prep Course, and 90-hours of SAE courses.
=========================================
If I really wanted to... I could but would rather not. I'll do what I do.
@ Derek Tyler - Colleague me and anytime you need assistance, just let me know. I have your back brother man!!! Good luck and God be with you.
BIG HENRY
==========================================
Here are the basic steps to file your Application for Salesperson License. Satisfy current education requirements totaling 180 hours all of which must be “core” real estate.
Six (6) are specifically mandated CORE classes – (60 hours of Principles of Real Estate; 30 hours of Law of Agency, 30 hours of Law of Contracts, 30 hours of Real Estate Finance, and 30 hours of Promulgated Contracts).
Select a Package
6-Course Program + Prep $933 (Save $147)
Our 6-course program includes the 6 TREC mandatory courses needed for pre-licensing education, the State Exam Prep Course, and our Real Estate Prep Flashcards.
Available Through
9-Course Comprehensive Program + Prep $1332 (Save $213)
Our complete 9-course program includes the 6 TREC mandatory courses (180 hours), the State Exam Prep Course, and 90-hours of SAE courses.
=========================================
It's interesting how much different the requirements are state to state. I didn't realize that Texas was this focused on educational requirements.
In Georgia, it's a 75-hour course (which costs $249 online from the company that actually runs the MLS), and then requires a test to complete the course and then the actual state test. In total, it's less than $500 and about a month's work.
I bet they have better agents in Texas... :)
Thanks Henry I will definitely take you up on that option. Wow 180 hours? Here in MD it is 60 hours and can be done through a company for $249. They have the online option that clocks your hours so really you might be able to get through it in a couple weeks. Then there is an online test (free), a test with the company (free) and then the state test ($66). Also this doesnt include optional resources such as the book or study guide materials. In VA its 60 hours, DC 60 hours, DE 99 hours and NJ 75 hours. All this was on the registration packet I printed out.
I bet they have better agents in Texas... :)
Jason, Everything is BETTER & BIGGER in TEXAS. LOL!
BIG HENRY
Derek, Do you think I would have put up the same fuss if I only had to pay $249..? So Derek, you now have no excuse. Just do it. Haha. I believe you will meet your goal for 2013.
Keep me posted.
BIG HENRY
So for instance with this listing at Frankly MLS (http://franklymls.com/CH7763624) I see a more detailed breakdown of the sale. However if you use realtor.com (http://www.realtor.com/realestateandhomes-detail/6751-Periwinkle-Pl_Bryans-Road_MD_20616_M51988-41445) you would have missed the $14,000 worth of concessions that I would have to take into account (and the price drop and days on market).
See I thought the problem with sites such as zillow, redfin, realtor.com, trulio, etc. were that they don't list concessions, they don't list how long it was on the market, and sometimes the data had report timing issues thus you couldn't get a truly thorough comp. I thought that was why there was a pretty big consensus to get MLS comps through a realtor or yourself if you have access. Are you seeing a good amount of investors use realtor.com and use a comp analysis adjuster to help in their analysis of deals without getting a more thorough comp through the MLS?
Derek Tyler - OK, I finally looked at the link you gave here and see that a roughly 6% seller concession is what the $14K amounted to. You are trying to be prudent by taking into account the seller concession, because that affects the net you end up with.
So you can look at this from a different perspective, so that you can do without the MLS agent side of things. Assume you will have to give 6% (or some other number) seller concession when you sell - that is off of the sales price / contract price. So just get comps based on sales / contract price, and consider the seller concession to be another expense. Wouldn't that pretty much accomplish what you wish, without need to know the actual MLS seller concession? When you negotiate with your buyer, you have to make sure that you don't exceed the "budgeted" percentage for seller concession, of course.
Derek Tyler, I use Frankley all the time. Why would you need MLS? The comps are great as is the direct link to tax data. Access is the issue. I only involve my agent when I get to that stage. I trust my own numbers and my own rehab estimates. My contractor is happy to take a look and give me a proposal pre-contract. I usually don't need him unless it's extensive work. I target certain areas that I find attractive for various reasons; location for appreciation, proximity to my house, numbers, decent/good schools with low crime. I know the values cold and can act in a matter of hours.
Derek,
I am not sure if anyone else has suggested it, but if you sign up for SiteXData (sitexdata.com) You can pull comps yourself at 3.50 a pull. They have 2 different ways to pull the reports. Their automated way, which is on the low side, then you can pick your own data to figure out the comps yourself.
You just have to be a little patient when signing up. Calling them is the best way. I hope I didn't break any rules by posting their name.
They also provide a way to pull leads as well and they are dirt cheap. I just pulled my first list for a specific zip code and so far I got a 6% response when sending out letters.
I am not sure if anyone else has suggested it, but if you sign up for SiteXData (sitexdata.com) You can pull comps yourself at 3.50 a pull. They have 2 different ways to pull the reports. Their automated way, which is on the low side, then you can pick your own data to figure out the comps yourself.
You just have to be a little patient when signing up. Calling them is the best way. I hope I didn't break any rules by posting their name.
They also provide a way to pull leads as well and they are dirt cheap. I just pulled my first list for a specific zip code and so far I got a 6% response when sending out letters.
Joe, I pulled this from another Thread - read below:
After paying for Sitex Data for a year (not cheap, even if you only buy a block of comps), I discovered that BOfA's free comp tool (see link below) comes up with pretty much the same valuations as Sitex, so I stopped using Sitex.
I guess different strokes for different folks
Henry Thanks for the info. Great way to quickly get comps. I appreciate your time. I will probably still use Sitex as it also provides pricing for the most recent purchases within a specific range so I can get the investor comps. That is until I get my license. Thanks Again Henry!
I just checked it out some more with some address and scrolled down to read ALL of the data, this is very good. So I would recommend this to Derek as well!
These are the sites I use frequently (as well as my appraisal district and county courthouse site)
• http://www.zillow.com/
• http://ww1.realtor.com/
• http://www.eppraisal.com/
• http://hotpads.com/
• http://www.trulia.com
• http://www.homes.com/
• http://homes.yahoo.com/
• http://www.realtytrac.com/home/
• http://www.movoto.com/
• http://www.weichert.com/
• http://www.sawbuck.com/
• http://www.loopnet.com/ (MOSTLY COMMERCIAL)
• http://t.co/vDb0ACVo - (BOA - MUST CHOOSE PERTINENT COMPS ONCE LISTED - 3-6MOs, SQ FT, BED & DATHS, ETC...)
• http://t.co/AlAXxcWq - (QUICK ANALYSIS - EREAL INVESTOR)
• http://www.rentometer.com/ - (RENT COMPs)
BIG HENRY
I APOLOGIZE - NOW I HAVE CLICKABLE LINKs
Cheryl C. Cheryl I agree that it is a good site however the plans were always to get my license to have my hands on more data and to be able to get the extra revenue associated with the buying and selling of my real estate investments as well.
Also thanks for the BofA site as well.
I just spoke with an agent here in Cincinnati. Explained that I was a investor interested in comps on several properties that I'm looking to purchase. I explained to her that I was more than willing to pay up to $50.00 for each report. I also told her what buying criteria I have and that I'm in need of an agent. Well....judging by her tone I can tell she wasn't very pleased that I even bothered her. She then proceeds to tell me that I wont get much help from the top 10% of agents in this city because they just don't work like that and blah blah blah. I have a question for us all. When in life do we turn down money and new-comers to our networks? Does anyone have a viable solution to getting comps other than dealing with an agent? I would love to have an agent on my team to buy from and/or run comps when I need them. But if this is the kind of snooti bologna you have to go through I see why most avoid agents when they buy. Help me out folks.
P.S. I was referred to this agent by an agent who's not active because of maternity leave.