Please join me in roasting crappy Appraisers!

Please join me in roasting crappy Appraisers!

Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes

The role of the Appraiser is an odd one: Way too much art (opinions) and way too little science (data-analytics), with way, way, way too little accountability. While the world embraces tech tools to automate workflows and tasks, reduce errors, and thereby increasing precision, the Appraiser is basically doing the same thing they did 80+ years ago.  Show up with a tape measure and a camera, pretend like they are doing something scientific, pontificating unscientific opinions, charging ridiculous fees for said opinions, then going home with no accountability for the disasters that stems from those opinions. And the worse part: we have to pay for this rubbish, and live with the rubbish for 3-6 months we can pay for new rubbish --OR live with the rubbish and make a whole helluva lot less $$ then a scientific method would have yielded.

These people are not scientists.  They are not "professionals" in a true sense of the word.  Yes, in exchange for 75 hours you too can obtain a license to be an Appraiser and work on your own!  No one will check your work.  That's NOT a professional.  And by extension, it should no longer be a profession.  

This is a role in our investor ecosystem that is ripe for automation and transformation. I, for one, am sick and tired of these opinions (and folks, let's be honest -- that's all they are offering here.  75+ hours of qualification to offer you their opinion on what they think your property is worth.) Now I know there is the occasional rare professional equipped with both experience and a scientific method.  Well, I don't actually "know" -- I just suspect.  I've never actually had the privilege of meeting or interacting with such a rare species. (And to be fair, Robert Kiyosaki has said (once) 'a great Appraiser is invaluable.' I've just concluded that this is must be some mythical creature that would have great value if the creature actually existed.  But I digress...)

Alas, I don't know what one individual can do.  The ecosystem is set up to require us to get an appraisal the same ol' way we've been getting them since the 1930s.  So all I can do is joke about it.  So please join me in sharing your favorite Appraiser joke.  I'll start:

“What does an appraiser’s wife say if she can’t sleep? ‘Honey, tell me about your day at work.’”

Ok, one more...

“I finally figured out how to make a million dollars in the real estate business. You ask an Appraiser to appraise your two million property that you own free and clear.”

Keep it going... go on! I know you have a favorite.  Please share!

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IA · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 29 votes
6y

 ..Weathermen/women?

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Anthony Wick this is exactly my point: there is now enough data out there for us to safely draw some reasonably accurate valuations without the need of an expensive Appraiser who either uses plastic toys and opinions and gets it wrong, or stays at home all together and consults a source like Zillow and gets it reasonably correct. I had a home last year that I paid an Appraiser $450 (b/c I had to) who who took two weeks to provide THE EXACT number that was in Zillow. Anyone could have obtained that number for free and instantaneously. So somewhere we need a new process that starts with algorithmic data and is augmented in special cases (eg the price is above $$$ or the renovation was not documented and needs confirmation or whatever)

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Ed Mayo That, Ed, is a perfect example of the lack of a scientific method. Random and unscientific methods produce unreliable results. Thanks for your post.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Frank S.:

    Great discussion! I have always questioned their independence and “non-objective” appraisals and comps. In my experience, I often feel like they are working for the other party (buying agent or bank) because some of the comps don’t make sense. I have the experience and know how to pull recent sold’s (closed public records sold) along with pictures to object to what they have but they won’t listen or even take into account what I found.

    I would like a way to challenge the appraisal. Maybe there is and I don’t know?

     Challenging an appraisal may be illegal.

    It is not illegal to challenge an appraisal if errors are discovered, however be advised, no appraisal is perfect and there is room allowed for small errors before an appraisal will be deemed deficient. The errors must be a) substantial to the result or b) so numerous that they illustrate incompetence. A couple of typos aint going to cut it. An appraisal that demonstrates an appraiser can't add and subtract might. An appraisal that demonstrates a difference in opinion between you and the appraiser is not going to cut it.

    It is illegal to challenge the appraised value in all mortgage appraisals. It is illegal for the bank to do it. It is illegal for the borrower to do it. It is illegal for the realtor to do it. It is collusion if these parties conspire to do it.

    Where everyone goes wrong on this issue, is the law allows the appraisal client (the bank) to request supplemental information from the appraiser post-submission of the appraisal report, for the purposes of providing further support of the value conclusion already made and delivered. This provision is widely misinterpreted, for obvious and self-serving reasons, as an open-season to challenge the value conclusion. Take a second and consider the circumstance of obtaining a mortgage appraisal in the first place - the entire point is to create a barrier between the valuation of the asset and the loan officer, according to the rule of law to do so - not because nobody other than the appraiser can figure out what the property is probably worth.

    The absence of law enforcement has made the problem more widespread, to the point where people are challenging appraisals all the time. In the absence of law enforcement, each individual appraiser faced with the circumstance must navigate how to address challenge requests, often blatantly titled "Reconsideration Of Value Request" by the lender, borrower and realtor. Some lenders even have policies encouraging borrowers and inviting realtors (what the hell is the realtor doing in the loan office?). What most appraisers do, is bite the bullet and write a paragraph of nonsense saying they aren't going to change a damn thing and **** you, written in a much more polite and professional manner. The really stupid appraisers will actually conspire illegally with the bank, borrower and realtor and change the value (if I can add to this thread list of things stupid appraisers do, that might be the top of my list). The incredibly smart appraisers MIGHT take the time to explain this to the client, except by doing so, lenders usually call another appraiser the next time, seeing as they prefer to have their head in the sand while the sand is profitable. See no evil.

    The influence on appraisers from loan brokers in the modern world is the telephone. Play ball or the phone stops ringing. Each appraiser actively working in the mortgage industry currently is therefore a) ignorant of the laws governing the profession - an act prohibited under USPAP or b) dishonest or c) both or d) doing the best they can while they suffer injustice and an impossible choice. I'd say option D is the most common one. It's 100% the appraisers fault and at the same time is 0% the appraisers fault. That last bit takes a few more pages of text to explain. It's also at the core of why I stopped being an appraiser. I have seen the evil and have walked away.

    As far as the question about comps, why are you attempting to analyze comps??? Think hard. Answer honestly.

    As far as your inclination that appraisers are working for the "other" party, I wonder at what point did you ever think it might be any other way??? Was it when the bank talked you into paying the fee for the appraisal? Is that when you thought you purchased an interest? Of course the appraiser is working for the bank. The appraiser is working only for the bank. And what that explains, is why the comps appear to be selected according to what the bank might want to see, maybe not what might make the most sense to another party. That is exactly what is happening, and also exactly as it should be. Your problem is you think you are entitled to more for your money than you are!!! (As a side note, the only reason the borrower receives a copy of the appraisal report today when they pay for it is because someone complained to the right person and a law was passed a few years ago - borrowers did not always get a copy, and the fact that everyone does now creates confusion over the rights of use.)

    As far as the ability to pull data on your own - bravo! Each investor will need to become their own appraiser. Then when you have cash and don't need a bank, that skill will really come in handy as there are no social safety nets in place for cash buyers.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Anthony Wick:

    My last five purchases and appraisals have all appraised at EXACTLY the purchase price in the Purchase Agreement. January 2019; agreed to purchase a duplex for $285k. Appraised at exactly $285k. August 2019; agreed to purchase an identical duplex a block away from last one. I mean, identical. Even the county assessor has them at the same value. This one was a FSBO, agreed to buy for $274k. Financing through same bank. Appraised at.....$274k.

    Appraisals are about as solid as Zillow "Zestimates". 

    This is the reason you have had this experience:

    USPAP 2018-2019, STANDARD 1: Real Property Appraisal, Development, Standards Rule 1-5

    "When the value opinion to be developed is market value, an appraiser must, if such information is available to
    the appraiser in the normal course of business:

    (a) analyze all agreements of sale, options, and listings of the subject property current as of the effective
    date of the appraisal; and

    (b) analyze all sales of the subject property that occurred within the three (3) years prior to the effective date
    of the appraisal."

    The appraiser is required to obtain a copy of the current purchase agreement, is required to "analyze" it, according to the portion of USPAP that pertains to the development of the value conclusion. The problem is, what "analyze" means is defined exactly nowhere, and the provision is located within USPAP under a standard that deals specifically with the development of value, not reporting, not ethics, not record keeping, not scope of work, etc. This creates a confusion and common misinterpretation and arguments between appraisers and appraisal users alike.

    The reality of all that is this - the appraiser knows what the sales price is and they are going to hit it every time unless they have a good reason not to. Whether or not they ought to be doing exactly that is highly debated. The fact the general public are mostly unaware of it is wrong.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    The appraisal of property is an art, not a science. Sometimes the art of appraisal employs science. Why is it always an art and never a science? Because at the end of the day it is still an opinion, not a scientific fact. I would expect out of all people, real estate investors would be a group that could easily wrap their heads around that, whereas I might expect that to be challenging for a regular person.

    However and to counter what I just said, it is also true that some appraisers believe it is a science and not an art. If this thread is about complaining about appraisers and the stupid things they do, that is a contribution to the list from me.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Anthony Wick your post really highlights the fact that we have ways of getting REALLY close on valuations from Zestimates (or some similar source of algorithmic data) without some unskilled, unaccountable person offering their unscientific opinions that ultimately trump all other data points on the property, slow down the process, and add costs. Maybe in the mid 1900s we needed this role because we lacked other sources of insight. But times have changed and it’s time to upgrade how we get our appraisals. Thanks for your post.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Merritt S. This is an awesome and insightful reply. I would read anything you care to add.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Shivam Patel it’s a total mix! Sometimes it’s exactly the Zestimate, sometimes it’s !100k less than what the home sells for 2 weeks later, sometimes it’s just enough for a refi but not a sale, and two months later the home appraises for a higher price needed to sell it. It’s the lack of a ratified, objective, proven scientific method that does my head in. And I think I’m not alone based on the examples in this thread.

  • Rental Property Investor · Ankeny, IA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    6y

    I’m thinking of now becoming an appraiser when I retire in 3 years. I’ll only be 54 years old and will need something to do. Apparently, very little training or oversight of this part time gig would be fantastic for me. It would seem to me you don’t even really need to leave your home to complete the report, and to decide the value is exactly what the Purchase Agreement says it is. Rubber. Stamp.

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Merritt S. For me this thread is to see if there are likeminded investors who believe a revolution is due that can result in an improved, predictable, objective data-driven (sorry, I know that phrase is redundant) Appraisal process we can consistently rely on for a fair market evaluation of real property.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Greg Moore:

    @Anthony Wick your post really highlights the fact that we have ways of getting REALLY close on valuations from Zestimates (or some similar source of algorithmic data) without some unskilled, unaccountable person offering their unscientific opinions that ultimately trump all other data points on the property, slow down the process, and add costs. Maybe in the mid 1900s we needed this role because we lacked other sources of insight. But times have changed and it’s time to upgrade how we get our appraisals. Thanks for your post.

     LOL. Yea...I get what you are laying down here my friend. However, I might say you miss the point of the appraisers role entirely. Appraisers do not exist in the world of mortgages because nobody else can figure out what the property is probably worth - any monkey can do that.

    Computer programs can not be programmed to calculate human objectivity as it translates into dollars. And believe me, the programmers have been trying to do that for a very, very long time. Will that be possible in the future? I highly doubt it, as that would require technology that literally taps into the brains of humans. The only way around that is to compile and accept as fact certain historical data that could be used to calculate a property value. The problem there is assumption, time and location, each of these has an affect on value and/or prices. The cost of such an accomplishment is an interesting consideration too.

    The reason appraisers exist is to keep the dishonesty of loan brokers in check. This has always been the case. Once that problem is solved, mortgage appraisers will no longer serve a purpose. If you would like to get rid of them, solve that problem and you're done. All you have to do is change all humans to never be dishonest and presto!

    As far as archaic methodology, I might agree with you in that regard, but I would not make any of the suggestions you are making here, as none of them would be better, or more cost minded, than what we already have in place with human appraisers. IMO, the appraisal world is in fact behind in the times, and that creates reasonable frustration among people like yourself. All I can say is I did what I could when I was an appraiser to correct that, but my efforts were futile, just like resisting the Borg. And as a last joke, you aren't suggesting we would be better off as a race if we were more like the Borg are you??? (Borg - A race of beings that are one part living, one part machine - from the television show Star Trek)

    Live long and prosper.

  • Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y

    For most of us investors, real estate agents and appraisal haters, we are not the customers of the appraiser.   The lending institution is and they certainly want an independent valuation of the asset.  Real estate agents, buyer and sellers of real estate should, in theory, not have any influence on the appraiser.

    Now, most appraisers I've met have been doing this for awhile and there is professionalism in the industry.  One simple conclusion is that appraised value does not equal market value.  Another is that appraisals are not even indepth valuations, because most of their chosen comparables have not visited.  And few are market experts because they cover a large geographical area.

    Finally, comparables used get old very quickly, especially if you are in a hot market.  For those of us in the business, expect a percentage of appraisals not to go your way.  I say at least 25% I am not happy with.

    One funny story is that my main lender, a local bank, sends out an appraiser that wildly over-appraises the properties.  My loans look like very conservative LTVs in the file, but they are not.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Greg Moore:

    @Merritt S. For me this thread is to see if there are likeminded investors who believe a revolution is due that can result in an improved, predictable, objective data-driven (sorry, I know that phrase is redundant) Appraisal process we can consistently rely on for a fair market evaluation of real property.

     Outstanding. And why wouldn't all investors and all people not deserve just that if at all possible?

    Again you are confused, or at the very least combine two things that ought not be combined. I'm sorry, but if you don't understand the foundation behind appraisal in the first place, your little conversation here is nothing more than entertainment and will not be productive whatsoever, ever.

    Mortgage appraisals are for the use of the bank to assist them with regards to making a decision concerning a mortgage loan transaction. Please read that until it sinks in, using the most literal, word for word translation you can. Here is the language you will find in the URAR 1004 form used by FNMA, the most commonly used form in mortgage appraisals from all lenders. You will find similar language in all written appraisal reports and nearly identical language in all mortgage appraisal reports. I wonder if you have ever taken the time to read any of this sort of language, usually making up half of the report, as it is more important than the valuation itself. The reason it is more important than the appraisal itself is the appraisal can be misleading if the appropriate context is not defined.

    INTENDED USE: The intended use of this appraisal report is for the lender/client to evaluate the property that is the
    subject of this appraisal for a mortgage finance transaction.

    INTENDED USER: The intended user of this appraisal report is the lender/client.

    (from Appraiser Certifications:)

    20. I identified the lender/client in this appraisal report who is the individual, organization, or agent for the organization that
    ordered and will receive this appraisal report.

    21. The lender/client may disclose or distribute this appraisal report to: the borrower; another lender at the request of the
    borrower; the mortgagee or its successors and assigns; mortgage insurers; government sponsored enterprises; other
    secondary market participants; data collection or reporting services; professional appraisal organizations; any department,
    agency, or instrumentality of the United States; and any state, the District of Columbia, or other jurisdictions; without having to
    obtain the appraiser's or supervisory appraiser's (if applicable) consent. Such consent must be obtained before this appraisal
    report may be disclosed or distributed to any other party (including, but not limited to, the public through advertising, public
    relations, news, sales, or other media).

    23. The borrower, another lender at the request of the borrower, the mortgagee or its successors and assigns, mortgage
    insurers, government sponsored enterprises, and other secondary market participants may rely on this appraisal report as part
    of any mortgage finance transaction that involves any one or more of these parties.

    All appraisals are developed according to the intended use and the intended user. Each appraisal is unique to those two things. Possession of a report does not equal right of use, and those granted permission to rely is not the same thing as the intended use, though it is easy to confuse that fine line. Because most people have never experienced anything other than a mortgage appraisal, they unwittingly assume all appraisals are similar to mortgage appraisals when that could not be more false.

    Mortgage appraisals are the very worst of all appraisals in terms of quality (not including the nightmares known as AVM's like Zillow). However, the bank only needs a certain quality to make their decision concerning the loan, and so therefore the current level of quality is acceptable. All mortgage appraisals are written to satisfy the banks needs and concerns, with zero consideration of the borrower.

    Banks (FNMA), not appraisers, developed the form format for all mortgage appraisals - they wrote it. If you don't agree with the methodology and reporting, you need to take that up with FNMA, right behind an endless line of appraisers doing the same, and who have been doing the same for a very long time, with almost no results.

    It is very important for FNMA and all lenders to have a uniform appraisal. URAR is an acronym for Uniform Residential Appraisal Report, just like USPAP is an acronym for the Uniform Standards of the Professional Appraisal Practice - emphasis on the word uniform in both cases.

    Armed with a uniform report format developed by appraisers beholden to a uniform code of conduct, lenders from CA can obtain an appraisal from a property in WI and make a decision on the value without wondering what the particular appraiser is attempting to communicate - in other words there is a very real need to keep it simple so the whole machine of lending across state lines goes smoothly. Borrowers have been enjoying this benefit for a very long time, but as they say, what have you done for me lately?

    Lately borrowers seem to think they have a say in how a mortgage appraisal ought to be done. And why not? They paid for it. However and again, that is an issue you need to take up with the bank as a consumer, after convincing you to purchase something for them. Can you think of anyone besides your family and friends for whom you might purchase something as a gift? Pretty much unheard of in business. Yet, because borrowers want to borrow, they pony up and pay the banks expense. Did you know that some banks skim the appraisal fee?

    Now that we have talked about mortgage appraisals to the point of nausea, I would love to talk about how a better appraisal could be done.

    Better appraisals are in fact being done everyday. However in small numbers, because instead of people purchasing these better appraisals, they instead decided to rely on the one they purchased for the bank, that they don't have a right to use anyways outside of a warm fuzzy when they get a loan.

    I had been providing these better appraisals to people for a very long time, in small numbers as I already stated. Those people made very informed decisions and the amount I charged them for the service was really no more, and even less in many cases, than the typical fee for a mortgage appraisal.

    Appraisal is an art, not a science. Until you wrap your head around that, I won't waste my time with you any longer. Maybe you we're hoping I'd come to that about 4 posts ago - lol.

     Enough. Time to get my fishing gear set and launch the boat. 

    You go ahead and plan out that revolution of yours. Let me know how it all works out.

  • Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Brian Ploszay:

    For most of us investors, real estate agents and appraisal haters, we are not the customers of the appraiser.   The lending institution is and they certainly want an independent valuation of the asset.  Real estate agents, buyer and sellers of real estate should, in theory, not have any influence on the appraiser.

    Now, most appraisers I've met have been doing this for awhile and there is professionalism in the industry.  One simple conclusion is that appraised value does not equal market value.  Another is that appraisals are not even indepth valuations, because most of their chosen comparables have not visited.  And few are market experts because they cover a large geographical area.

    Finally, comparables used get old very quickly, especially if you are in a hot market.  For those of us in the business, expect a percentage of appraisals not to go your way.  I say at least 25% I am not happy with.

    One funny story is that my main lender, a local bank, sends out an appraiser that wildly over-appraises the properties.  My loans look like very conservative LTVs in the file, but they are not.

     How is that funny? The bank does that on purpose. They have identified the appraiser that does that and specifically hire them when they need a loan to be inflated. That's acting outside of their employers best interest for personal gain at the very least. It is very dangerous to a borrower too, who is relying on a sound valuation. You are fortunate to be wiser than the regular mortgage holder.

    The appraised value will never equal market value, it can only ever be an estimate of probable market value. The worst part of these is when the appraised value is represented as a single price, instead of a range of value, as is the case in a mortgage appraisal. But, the bank doesn't want to go down the rabbit hole of working with a range of value so, they task the appraiser to make the call. Just like an umpire, the appraiser usually gets it close, and sometimes not so much. The most "accurate" appraisal would be one expressed as a range while the least "accurate" appraisal is expressed as a price. Why??? Any real investor that does not know the answer to that question is not a very good real estate investor as they lack a very basic understanding of how real estate markets work. Banks understand what I just said precisely. Most borrowers have no idea what I just said, which is what makes it dangerous to them.

    What determines the quality of any appraisal if all else is equal and as it should be? The quantity and quality of data available.

    It is more appropriate to describe an appraisal as weak or strong than it is to describe it as good or bad.

  • Rental Property Investor · Beavercreek OH · Member since 2018 · 422 posts · 970 votes
    6y

    If you think residential appraisals suck don't even bother with a commercial one.

    Guy rolls up in a 20 year old car. Gets out and it's obvious he is approaching 90 years old.  His "assistant" (about 25 year old) walks the property for 10 minutes, takes pictures and measures the building. Appraiser sitting in his car.

    Building I'm buying is a gas station/repair facility. Comps are a nearby repair facility sold 4 years before (dead smack in the middle of the Great Financial Crisis) a much smaller building a couple miles away with no parking and zoning that was more prohibitive and would not suit my buildings purpose, 3 years after it's sale. Third comp was a gas station in a completely different city, also 4 year old sale.

    Based on these so called comps, my appraisal came in 25 lower then our contracted price.

    Complete and utter bull manure.

    O yeah, it cost only 1500 bucks and took two weeks to get done. A license to steal!

  • Investor · Simpsonville, SC · Member since 2015 · 19 posts · 32 votes
    6y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Frank S.:

    Great discussion! I have always questioned their independence and “non-objective” appraisals and comps. In my experience, I often feel like they are working for the other party (buying agent or bank) because some of the comps don’t make sense. I have the experience and know how to pull recent sold’s (closed public records sold) along with pictures to object to what they have but they won’t listen or even take into account what I found.

    I would like a way to challenge the appraisal. Maybe there is and I don’t know?

     Challenging an appraisal may be illegal.

    It is not illegal to challenge an appraisal if errors are discovered, however be advised, no appraisal is perfect and there is room allowed for small errors before an appraisal will be deemed deficient. The errors must be a) substantial to the result or b) so numerous that they illustrate incompetence. A couple of typos aint going to cut it. An appraisal that demonstrates an appraiser can't add and subtract might. An appraisal that demonstrates a difference in opinion between you and the appraiser is not going to cut it.

    It is illegal to challenge the appraised value in all mortgage appraisals. It is illegal for the bank to do it. It is illegal for the borrower to do it. It is illegal for the realtor to do it. It is collusion if these parties conspire to do it.

    Where everyone goes wrong on this issue, is the law allows the appraisal client (the bank) to request supplemental information from the appraiser post-submission of the appraisal report, for the purposes of providing further support of the value conclusion already made and delivered. This provision is widely misinterpreted, for obvious and self-serving reasons, as an open-season to challenge the value conclusion. Take a second and consider the circumstance of obtaining a mortgage appraisal in the first place - the entire point is to create a barrier between the valuation of the asset and the loan officer, according to the rule of law to do so - not because nobody other than the appraiser can figure out what the property is probably worth.

    The absence of law enforcement has made the problem more widespread, to the point where people are challenging appraisals all the time. In the absence of law enforcement, each individual appraiser faced with the circumstance must navigate how to address challenge requests, often blatantly titled "Reconsideration Of Value Request" by the lender, borrower and realtor. Some lenders even have policies encouraging borrowers and inviting realtors (what the hell is the realtor doing in the loan office?). What most appraisers do, is bite the bullet and write a paragraph of nonsense saying they aren't going to change a damn thing and **** you, written in a much more polite and professional manner. The really stupid appraisers will actually conspire illegally with the bank, borrower and realtor and change the value (if I can add to this thread list of things stupid appraisers do, that might be the top of my list). The incredibly smart appraisers MIGHT take the time to explain this to the client, except by doing so, lenders usually call another appraiser the next time, seeing as they prefer to have their head in the sand while the sand is profitable. See no evil.

    The influence on appraisers from loan brokers in the modern world is the telephone. Play ball or the phone stops ringing. Each appraiser actively working in the mortgage industry currently is therefore a) ignorant of the laws governing the profession - an act prohibited under USPAP or b) dishonest or c) both or d) doing the best they can while they suffer injustice and an impossible choice. I'd say option D is the most common one. It's 100% the appraisers fault and at the same time is 0% the appraisers fault. That last bit takes a few more pages of text to explain. It's also at the core of why I stopped being an appraiser. I have seen the evil and have walked away.

    As far as the question about comps, why are you attempting to analyze comps??? Think hard. Answer honestly.

    As far as your inclination that appraisers are working for the "other" party, I wonder at what point did you ever think it might be any other way??? Was it when the bank talked you into paying the fee for the appraisal? Is that when you thought you purchased an interest? Of course the appraiser is working for the bank. The appraiser is working only for the bank. And what that explains, is why the comps appear to be selected according to what the bank might want to see, maybe not what might make the most sense to another party. That is exactly what is happening, and also exactly as it should be. Your problem is you think you are entitled to more for your money than you are!!! (As a side note, the only reason the borrower receives a copy of the appraisal report today when they pay for it is because someone complained to the right person and a law was passed a few years ago - borrowers did not always get a copy, and the fact that everyone does now creates confusion over the rights of use.)

    As far as the ability to pull data on your own - bravo! Each investor will need to become their own appraiser. Then when you have cash and don't need a bank, that skill will really come in handy as there are no social safety nets in place for cash buyers.

    Thanks for the reply. I pull and analyze comps to compare my home to others and I’m pretty fair as evident that some of the flips sold first week or even weekend and they close, several for full asking price. Of course, I want more money and I fight for my right (and hard earned effort) to maximize my profit while balancing the need to move it quickly.

    I had one house on a great quiet street, all new electrical, kitchen, master bath, floors…etc. One of his comps was a house on a four lane busy road that was not remodeled. I showed them a house similar to mine around the corner that was remodeled and sold (closed) within a couple of months of my listing. That was not one of his comps.

    I only want them to be fair and consistent and that is my hang up with some…not all of them.

  • Investor · Wilmington, NC · Member since 2016 · 211 posts · 262 votes
    6y

    @Account Closed

    If the appraisal is 100% for the lending institution why am I paying for it?

  • Specialist · Lancaster, PA · Member since 2018 · 152 posts · 66 votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore, loving this post! I find it hysterical everytime I get an appraisal. For one, I have access to all or more of their data. For two, it takes me about 30 min max to come to an unbiased decision. And I love how the bank hires them, as if their in the business of giving low valuations lol. The first time I get a low appraisal is the last time I will call them. The last appraisal I got came within $500 of our offer...like really.

  • Specialist · Lancaster, PA · Member since 2018 · 152 posts · 66 votes
    6y

    @Adrian Stamer, Precisely!

  • Rental Property Investor · New York City, NY · Member since 2017 · 493 posts · 386 votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore

    Wouldn’t it be nice that we could rate our appraisals in Yelp or maybe even here in BP??

    I understand we can’t pick our appraisals but with some type of review process that we have access to we can at least avoid some...

  • Rental Property Investor · Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 128 posts · 166 votes
    6y

    @Merritt S. Thanks for your insights on this thread. They were useful. I do understand your main point. And perhaps there is nothing I as an individual can do about it other than roast Appraisers. Know any good jokes?

  • Rental Property Investor · Fremont, CA · Member since 2016 · 298 posts · 222 votes
    6y

    Appraisers in Charlie Mungers words are like piano players in a whore house!

  • Real Estate Agent · Santa Barbara, CA · Member since 2016 · 518 posts · 283 votes
    6y

    @Greg Moore isn’t it funny that when it does appraise the house is worth exactly what lender requires it to appraise for not a dollar more not a dollar less.

  • Eastern Michigan · Member since 2018 · 81 posts · 144 votes
    6y

    The thing that fires me up about appraisals is how if you get one to purchase a property the appraisals will *always* come in at right around the purchase price BUT when you go to refinance chances of getting the appraiser to agree to what you think the value should be are slim to none.  

    Example: we bought a Quad level house and did a LOT to fix it up and make it nice.  Wanted to pull cash out so we got an appraisal with the new mortgage and the appraiser would NOT budge on a value of $235K.  Got a new job and ended up selling it 4 months later for $270K.  

    Not only that, but same house, when purchased- both when we bought and sold- 3 levels of the quad were counted as above ground sq footage. BUT, for that refi we did the appraiser would only count 2 levels as above ground. This obviously significantly affected the value and we fought back about it but after 3 rounds of back and forth there is nothing that could be done. 

  • Adrian StamerPro Member
    Real Estate Investor & Agent · Richmond, VA · Member since 2013 · 319 posts · 167 votes
    6y

    I just want to know why they think four year old comps or comps from a different city are acceptable when I know other better comps exist. It always seems to me that they pulled these comps years ago and are too lazy to go out and find the most recent and best ones

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