Beware-BAD Wholesaler and Realtor in Columbus Ohio!!!

Beware-BAD Wholesaler and Realtor in Columbus Ohio!!!

Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 102 votes

I wanted to post my experience investing remotely in Columbus Ohio with an active wholesaler and realtor, Sara Elford, and her partner unlicensed Contractor Raymond Kemp.

Because the experience of only one person may be “he said she said”, I want to start off with some samples of the written Better Business Bureau response from one contractor in this rehab (“John”) who had experience with Sara across multiple projects:

“The key with this being Sara Elford was the contact for her projects and projects with numerous out-of-state investors.”

“Over a period of a year or so, her ( Sara Elford) contractor was receiving draws and using the monies on his own projects and leaving numerous projects sitting for lengthy amounts of time. Some of those projects are still sitting today, leaving investors without profit and incomplete projects”

“As time went by, we realized Sara was hiring non-licensed tradesmen, no credentials and performing an entire renovation without any permits.”

“Through the process of this, we realized that Sara was unsure of the proper ways to renovate a house.”

“Letting Sara Elford know that I had contacted various departments and she shouldn't be selling homes to people that are a fire hazard, structural hazards and/or just poorly constructed in most phases of all the construction performed on any project that she (Sara Elford), had involvement with. There was a very good reason her previous contractor left her in the dark on the construction side of the projects. “

With that in mind, here is my own experience with Sara Elford:

In October 2019, myself and my investor partner (“Darlene”) found Sara on biggerpockets.com. She promoted herself as a realtor/flipper/investor in Columbus, claiming to have many successful partnership deals with out of state investors.

At the next step, Sara introduced us to her “business partner” Ray Kemp, who she claimed was a licensed contractor. (We later determined that Ray was actually not licensed, had several civil lawsuits against him, and had apparently gone so far as to transfer the title of his home to avoid service and garnishments. In fact, when he pulled the permit for this house, he apparently falsely claimed to be the homeowner, as otherwise the permit would not be granted to an unlicensed contractor. )

The four of us (Ray, Sara, myself and Darlene) would partner on the deal, splitting the profits 3 ways: Sara 33%, Ray 33%, and Gaby and Darlene 33%. This would be true even though Ray would be paid as a normal routine contractor (time, materials, profit, etc) and Sara being paid as a wholesaler (in bringing the deal) and as a realtor (in the final sale of the deal). An experienced investor would not have agreed to such a profit split, but I did not realize this at the time. I believe this is just one of many ways Sara took advantage of me and my naiveté.

An ownership LLC ("OwnerLLC") was created for the project, with 99% ownership to myself and Darlene and 1% to Sara. At the time I hoped this would help hold her accountable, which obviously didn't help in the long run.

Ray and Sara already had their own partnership entity, Serk Investments.

Sara located a deal needing extensive rehab. The purchase price was 77k, and Ray estimated a 80k rehab estimate, and Sara estimated an ARV of 275k .

OwnerLLC purchased this house using a hard money lender, with a 20k down payment from Gaby and Darlene. OwnerLLC signed a JV with Serk Investments. The JV agreement stated that Gaby and Darlene would bring the money, and Sara and Ray would manage the project, with the profit split 3 ways as outlined above.

Between November 2019 and Feburary 2020, our lender released a total of 53,989 to Serk Investments. This was 85% of the total rehab budget.

In March 2020, 5 months later, Sara announced that the house had been barely renovated, that Serk Investments was going out of business, and that Ray and her were no longer working together.

Thus, five months had passed, and almost 54,000 of our borrowed funds were essentially embezzled, before Sara realized (or admitted) what was happening. I didn’t mention this before, but I live in California, thousands of miles away from the project. By our agreement, Sara was to manage the project locally, but obviously she completely dropped that ball.

At that time, Sara said we should dissolve the JV, and signed the JV termination papers.

In April 2020, Sara then brought a second contractor, John, on board. We signed a contract for 39,892 over a 3-phase project. Despite my desire to pay the contractor directly, Sara insisted that the funds be wired to her personal account and that she would pay the contractor. She said the contractor “doesn’t want to talk to us” and that its “her team” and that she is “managing the project.”

The contractor later raised his rehab estimate to $49,892. Between April and July 2020, we wired an additional $56,942 to Sara Elford.

Sometime around May 2020, John, the second contractor, quit at phase two. Sara blamed everything on John, and showed checks showing she had paid John the first two phases for approximately $29,000. I later posted a BBB complaint about John, and he submitted an extensive written response detailing this project and several others, across which Sara had repeatedly cut corners, used unlicensed electricians, ordered structurally dangerous alterations.

For example, when one of Sara’s other projects had outlets that weren't working correctly, Sara ordered him to cover the nonworking outlets with blank plates. Another project had a stop work order from the city due to an improper installation of a engineered laminated header through the main floor. Sara covered the header and sold the home.

Back to our rehab project. Sara hired a third contractor to finish the house, and at the end said that all funds from the $56,942 wire had been spent. She then announced that the home was complete and ready for list and sale.

By this time, our total investment in the project was $220k, and we listed at $275k.

In August 2020, we got an offer of $255, which we accepted. However, when the potential buyer sent us the inspection report, we learned that the rehab was incomplete and had very poor workmanship. Despite offering a 10k remedy (on top of the 20k price cut) the buyer terminated the contract due to there being so many issues.

Obviously, if Sara had even the basic amount of competence in a rehab project, she would have recognized the issues before allowing the home to go to market.

On September 8, 2020, Sara Elford quit the project, leaving us a huge mess. We had her sign off to give up the 1% ownership in OwnerLLC.

We then listed with a 2nd realtor, lowering the price to 259k, and spending an additional 4k on the nonworking AC and to repair a hole in the roof. Later, we lowered the price again to 249k. We had over 50 showings and most of the feedback was bad.

Eventually, a second buyer went into contract for 242k, but then also terminated the contract once they realized how poor the workmanship was.

On October 14th 2020, we had an acquaintance go to the home, taking full walk-thru videos and photos. It was my first time to see the true condition of the house at that level of detail. I was shocked!

The acquaintance suggested to pull the listing, that the workmanship was “horrible” and the work incomplete, despite the beautiful listing photos. He said the asking price was way off to deserve the listing price.

On October 15th 2020, we had a property manager walk the house to evaluate it as a rental. She too was shocked, sending many photos and also suggesting we pull our listing ASAP. There were just too many issues all over the place, too much incomplete, and we need to fix it before we list or rent.

Thus we pulled our listing that same day. Over the partnership with Sara Elford, we invested 230,000 across three different contractors, only to get a rehab so poorly executed that it wouldn’t even sell in a historically hot market.

Thus, obviously I wrote this up to warn the community against doing business with Sara Elford. I believe she took advantage of my remoteness and newness to suggest unfair profit sharing arrangements, has knowingly and repeatedly engaged in a pattern of hiring incompetent (and possibly outright fraudulent) contractors and performing unsafe and dangerous alterations to her flips, and is both negligent and incompetent at supervising renovation projects.

Throughout the entire project, she concealed all this information from me, never once letting me know how bad the project was. Either this was intentional or she just outright couldn’t recognize it.

Even worse, not only does her obvious incompetence and mismanagement affect my bottom line as an investor, but she also has exposed the buyers of her flips to severe risk due to knowingly concealing electrical and structural issues that are the result of her unlicensed work.

Thank you for reading.

14Reply
155 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
5y

This is exactly why long distance BRRR or flips is a very bad idea. Unless it is with people you have a long past relationship with and trust 100% or you are willing to spend the time on the ground to personally manage the project you are better buying already rehabbed properties for rent.

See this reply in the discussion

23 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Member since 2016 · 46 posts · 11 votes
    5y

    That’s really messed up, what has happened to you. I actually had someone rip me off $30k behind a flip, nothing at all compared to what you lost. 😓😓 Don’t give up. You will recover, hell we all will.

  • Rental Property Investor · Blacklick, OH · Member since 2016 · 286 posts · 253 votes
    5y

    @Gaby Liu Thank you for sharing your story.  If you ever need help from a local investor to double check people your working with, I would love to help.  

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Gee, a wholesaler screwing people over - Shocking.

  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Gaby Liu:

    I wanted to post my experience investing remotely in Columbus Ohio with an active wholesaler and realtor, Sara Elford, and her partner unlicensed Contractor Raymond Kemp.

    Because the experience of only one person may be “he said she said”, I want to start off with some samples of the written Better Business Bureau response from one contractor in this rehab (“John”) who had experience with Sara across multiple projects:

    “The key with this being Sara Elford was the contact for her projects and projects with numerous out-of-state investors.”

    “Over a period of a year or so, her ( Sara Elford) contractor was receiving draws and using the monies on his own projects and leaving numerous projects sitting for lengthy amounts of time. Some of those projects are still sitting today, leaving investors without profit and incomplete projects”

    “As time went by, we realized Sara was hiring non-licensed tradesmen, no credentials and performing an entire renovation without any permits.”

    “Through the process of this, we realized that Sara was unsure of the proper ways to renovate a house.”

    “Letting Sara Elford know that I had contacted various departments and she shouldn't be selling homes to people that are a fire hazard, structural hazards and/or just poorly constructed in most phases of all the construction performed on any project that she (Sara Elford), had involvement with. There was a very good reason her previous contractor left her in the dark on the construction side of the projects. “

    With that in mind, here is my own experience with Sara Elford:

    In October 2019, myself and my investor partner (“Darlene”) found Sara on biggerpockets.com. She promoted herself as a realtor/flipper/investor in Columbus, claiming to have many successful partnership deals with out of state investors.

    At the next step, Sara introduced us to her “business partner” Ray Kemp, who she claimed was a licensed contractor. (We later determined that Ray was actually not licensed, had several civil lawsuits against him, and had apparently gone so far as to transfer the title of his home to avoid service and garnishments. In fact, when he pulled the permit for this house, he apparently falsely claimed to be the homeowner, as otherwise the permit would not be granted to an unlicensed contractor. )

    The four of us (Ray, Sara, myself and Darlene) would partner on the deal, splitting the profits 3 ways: Sara 33%, Ray 33%, and Gaby and Darlene 33%. This would be true even though Ray would be paid as a normal routine contractor (time, materials, profit, etc) and Sara being paid as a wholesaler (in bringing the deal) and as a realtor (in the final sale of the deal). An experienced investor would not have agreed to such a profit split, but I did not realize this at the time. I believe this is just one of many ways Sara took advantage of me and my naiveté.

    An ownership LLC ("OwnerLLC") was created for the project, with 99% ownership to myself and Darlene and 1% to Sara. At the time I hoped this would help hold her accountable, which obviously didn't help in the long run.

    Ray and Sara already had their own partnership entity, Serk Investments.

    Sara located a deal needing extensive rehab. The purchase price was 77k, and Ray estimated a 80k rehab estimate, and Sara estimated an ARV of 275k .

    OwnerLLC purchased this house using a hard money lender, with a 20k down payment from Gaby and Darlene. OwnerLLC signed a JV with Serk Investments. The JV agreement stated that Gaby and Darlene would bring the money, and Sara and Ray would manage the project, with the profit split 3 ways as outlined above.

    Between November 2019 and Feburary 2020, our lender released a total of 53,989 to Serk Investments. This was 85% of the total rehab budget.

    In March 2020, 5 months later, Sara announced that the house had been barely renovated, that Serk Investments was going out of business, and that Ray and her were no longer working together.

    Thus, five months had passed, and almost 54,000 of our borrowed funds were essentially embezzled, before Sara realized (or admitted) what was happening. I didn’t mention this before, but I live in California, thousands of miles away from the project. By our agreement, Sara was to manage the project locally, but obviously she completely dropped that ball.

    At that time, Sara said we should dissolve the JV, and signed the JV termination papers.

    In April 2020, Sara then brought a second contractor, John, on board. We signed a contract for 39,892 over a 3-phase project. Despite my desire to pay the contractor directly, Sara insisted that the funds be wired to her personal account and that she would pay the contractor. She said the contractor “doesn’t want to talk to us” and that its “her team” and that she is “managing the project.”

    The contractor later raised his rehab estimate to $49,892. Between April and July 2020, we wired an additional $56,942 to Sara Elford.

    Sometime around May 2020, John, the second contractor, quit at phase two. Sara blamed everything on John, and showed checks showing she had paid John the first two phases for approximately $29,000. I later posted a BBB complaint about John, and he submitted an extensive written response detailing this project and several others, across which Sara had repeatedly cut corners, used unlicensed electricians, ordered structurally dangerous alterations.

    For example, when one of Sara’s other projects had outlets that weren't working correctly, Sara ordered him to cover the nonworking outlets with blank plates. Another project had a stop work order from the city due to an improper installation of a engineered laminated header through the main floor. Sara covered the header and sold the home.

    Back to our rehab project. Sara hired a third contractor to finish the house, and at the end said that all funds from the $56,942 wire had been spent. She then announced that the home was complete and ready for list and sale.

    By this time, our total investment in the project was $220k, and we listed at $275k.

    In August 2020, we got an offer of $255, which we accepted. However, when the potential buyer sent us the inspection report, we learned that the rehab was incomplete and had very poor workmanship. Despite offering a 10k remedy (on top of the 20k price cut) the buyer terminated the contract due to there being so many issues.

    Obviously, if Sara had even the basic amount of competence in a rehab project, she would have recognized the issues before allowing the home to go to market.

    On September 8, 2020, Sara Elford quit the project, leaving us a huge mess. We had her sign off to give up the 1% ownership in OwnerLLC.

    We then listed with a 2nd realtor, lowering the price to 259k, and spending an additional 4k on the nonworking AC and to repair a hole in the roof. Later, we lowered the price again to 249k. We had over 50 showings and most of the feedback was bad.

    Eventually, a second buyer went into contract for 242k, but then also terminated the contract once they realized how poor the workmanship was.

    On October 14th 2020, we had an acquaintance go to the home, taking full walk-thru videos and photos. It was my first time to see the true condition of the house at that level of detail. I was shocked!

    The acquaintance suggested to pull the listing, that the workmanship was “horrible” and the work incomplete, despite the beautiful listing photos. He said the asking price was way off to deserve the listing price.

    On October 15th 2020, we had a property manager walk the house to evaluate it as a rental. She too was shocked, sending many photos and also suggesting we pull our listing ASAP. There were just too many issues all over the place, too much incomplete, and we need to fix it before we list or rent.

    Thus we pulled our listing that same day. Over the partnership with Sara Elford, we invested 230,000 across three different contractors, only to get a rehab so poorly executed that it wouldn’t even sell in a historically hot market.

    Thus, obviously I wrote this up to warn the community against doing business with Sara Elford. I believe she took advantage of my remoteness and newness to suggest unfair profit sharing arrangements, has knowingly and repeatedly engaged in a pattern of hiring incompetent (and possibly outright fraudulent) contractors and performing unsafe and dangerous alterations to her flips, and is both negligent and incompetent at supervising renovation projects.

    Throughout the entire project, she concealed all this information from me, never once letting me know how bad the project was. Either this was intentional or she just outright couldn’t recognize it.

    Even worse, not only does her obvious incompetence and mismanagement affect my bottom line as an investor, but she also has exposed the buyers of her flips to severe risk due to knowingly concealing electrical and structural issues that are the result of her unlicensed work.

    Thank you for reading.

     Make sure that you are asking for references when you start working with people. Reviews are a great way to confirm people are legit. Luckily BiggerPockets has this on everyone's profile.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steve Morris:

     Yeah, in an ideal world everyone would act with a duty to the seller and buyer but clearly, that does not happen. All I am saying is people can do some more due diligence before working with people. 99% of the Realtors out there are garbage. Columbus, Ohio is no different.

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Again, full disclosure fixes about 90% of that.  A lot more effective than someone's buddy giving him 5 stars on a WEBsite.

    Wholesalers do not believe in full disclosure.

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    At this point I should say, this is what a good agent is for! They can verify a deal as good or bad, they can have local knowledge and recommend contractors and so on. It is sad to here of your experience, but it is also due to your lack of due diligence and research.

    Investing out of state can be risky, mitigate that risk with a good agent and team!

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y

    Still think a knowledgeable seller and buyer with full disclosure is better. 

     Agents screw up stuff (even me), however, a buyer that understands (more than just trusting his agent) what he is committed prevents a lot of bad stuff.

  • Investor · Singapore · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y

    This is exactly why long distance BRRR or flips is a very bad idea. Unless it is with people you have a long past relationship with and trust 100% or you are willing to spend the time on the ground to personally manage the project you are better buying already rehabbed properties for rent.

  • Remington LymanBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    This is exactly why long distance BRRR or flips is a very bad idea. Unless it is with people you have a long past relationship with and trust 100% or you are willing to spend the time on the ground to personally manage the project you are better buying already rehabbed properties for rent.

     I know a lot of investors that have done successful BRRRRs in Columbus, Ohio while being out of state and even out of the country. The important part is developing your team. If you can do that you can invest from anywhere.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brighton, MI · Member since 2020 · 30 posts · 33 votes
    5y

    @Gaby Liu Thank you for posting this .

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Remington Lyman:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    This is exactly why long distance BRRR or flips is a very bad idea. Unless it is with people you have a long past relationship with and trust 100% or you are willing to spend the time on the ground to personally manage the project you are better buying already rehabbed properties for rent.

     I know a lot of investors that have done successful BRRRRs in Columbus, Ohio while being out of state and even out of the country. The important part is developing your team. If you can do that you can invest from anywhere.

     Yes exactly what Remington said, if you can devolve a competent and trustworthy team, it will help big time! Other wise you'll get stuck with all the Columbus scrammers!

  • Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 102 votes
    5y
    No scammers will have a label  on their face showing they are scammers but presenting themselves are trustworthy team to be developed with . you dont know what you dont know. I do learned big lesson.



    Originally posted by @Steven Foster Wilson:
    Originally posted by @Remington Lyman:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    This is exactly why long distance BRRR or flips is a very bad idea. Unless it is with people you have a long past relationship with and trust 100% or you are willing to spend the time on the ground to personally manage the project you are better buying already rehabbed properties for rent.

     I know a lot of investors that have done successful BRRRRs in Columbus, Ohio while being out of state and even out of the country. The important part is developing your team. If you can do that you can invest from anywhere.

     Yes exactly what Remington said, if you can devolve a competent and trustworthy team, it will help big time! Other wise you'll get stuck with all the Columbus scammers!

  • Flipper/Rehabber · Laurel, MD · Member since 2016 · 139 posts · 109 votes
    5y

    I still see @Sara Elford profile in BP and she posted a few months ago, I wonder what she has to say about this.  It looks like she is actively looking for more investors, hope the community is aware.

  • Ben StoodleyBusiness Member
    Lender · San Diego, CA · Member since 2014 · 266 posts · 161 votes
    5y

    @Gaby Liu hate to hear these stories but they are ALL too frequent. I'm so sorry you had to go through this mess. Ive had similar issues managing flips in VA from CA. Even with trusted feet on the ground and trusted/known contractors, we went through 4. And it was a $20k job!

    The book The Emyth explains in a very understandable way why this happens so much in our industry. It doesn’t take much to be a business owner... scamming is never cool, but more frequently it’s just poor business ethics and commitment. Becoming a business owner is easy. Becoming a PROFESSIONAL business owner requires management skills, talent and entrepreneurial vision. Typically only gained through LOTS of experience (verifiable).

    I say that to say this - Keep your head up! Thanks for sharing as it’s helpful feedback for even the parties involved, as that’s the only way they’ll improve (or change courses)! Good luck !

  • Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 102 votes
    5y
    I have full walking through videos showing how horrible workmanship of this house that under her supervising , they obviously not only took the money to spent on others projects but also did poor work. yes, she was very actively on BP .

    Originally posted by @Jonathan Tavarez:

    I still see @Sara Elford profile in BP and she posted a few months ago, I wonder what she has to say about this.  It looks like she is actively looking for more investors, hope the community is aware.

  • Investor · Los Angeles · Member since 2019 · 118 posts · 102 votes
    5y
    Yes, being a professional business owners is not easy.
      people saying all the time about due diligence ,but Scammers are the oldest careers in human history. what I learned the most is:trust your gut, there were actually many times my gut was telling me that something was off and i wanted to fire Sara and Ray even in the beginning ,Scammers are not that smart ,but I should have insisted to execute my decision.

    Originally posted by @Ben Stoodley:

    @Gaby Liu hate to hear these stories but they are ALL too frequent. I'm so sorry you had to go through this mess. Ive had similar issues managing flips in VA from CA. Even with trusted feet on the ground and trusted/known contractors, we went through 4. And it was a $20k job!

    The book The Emyth explains in a very understandable way why this happens so much in our industry. It doesn’t take much to be a business owner... scamming is never cool, but more frequently it’s just poor business ethics and commitment. Becoming a business owner is easy. Becoming a PROFESSIONAL business owner requires management skills, talent and entrepreneurial vision. Typically only gained through LOTS of experience (verifiable).

    I say that to say this - Keep your head up! Thanks for sharing as it’s helpful feedback for even the parties involved, as that’s the only way they’ll improve (or change courses)! Good luck !

  • Rental Property Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Gaby Liu:
    Yes, being a professional business owners is not easy.
      people saying all the time about due diligence ,but Scammers are the oldest careers in human history. what I learned the most is:trust your gut, there were actually many times my gut was telling me that something was off and i wanted to fire Sara and Ray even in the beginning ,Scammers are not that smart ,but I should have insisted to execute my decision.

    Originally posted by @Ben Stoodley:

    @Gaby Liu hate to hear these stories but they are ALL too frequent. I'm so sorry you had to go through this mess. Ive had similar issues managing flips in VA from CA. Even with trusted feet on the ground and trusted/known contractors, we went through 4. And it was a $20k job!

    The book The Emyth explains in a very understandable way why this happens so much in our industry. It doesn’t take much to be a business owner... scamming is never cool, but more frequently it’s just poor business ethics and commitment. Becoming a business owner is easy. Becoming a PROFESSIONAL business owner requires management skills, talent and entrepreneurial vision. Typically only gained through LOTS of experience (verifiable).

    I say that to say this - Keep your head up! Thanks for sharing as it’s helpful feedback for even the parties involved, as that’s the only way they’ll improve (or change courses)! Good luck !

    Don't let this skew your view of Columbus. Where still doing plenty of deals and making ALOT of money! Hit me up next time you feel comfortable enough to invest! Ill make sure you are connected with some good local people.

  • Investor · IL · Member since 2019 · 151 posts · 135 votes
    5y

    I have worked with contractors for 36 years in my job. I have done 2 rehabs on my own this last year, and I believe that to find a contractor you can trust from long distance is going to be very difficult. I don't think it's always that they are dishonest , (although that is the case a lot of the time) but the good contractors are always busy and looking for ways to maximize available time. This is saying nothing about RE agents. I feel like to find one you can trust the odds are like trying to beat the house at slots.

    In my mind the only way to invest long distance is to be able to fly in every 5-10 days to check on things and even then a lot can go wrong in 10 days time.   

  • Real Estate Broker · Portland, OR · Member since 2019 · 4k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steven Foster Wilson:
  • Rental Property Investor · Columbus, OH · Member since 2017 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steve Morris:
    Originally posted by @Steven Foster Wilson:

    Michigan is home of detroit.......and the worst football team of all time. Need I say more? I wouldn't trust them

  • Real Estate Agent · Columbus, OH · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    5y
    Originally posted by @Steven Foster Wilson:
    Originally posted by @Steve Morris:
    Originally posted by @Steven Foster Wilson:

    Michigan is home of detroit.......and the worst football team of all time. Need I say more? I wouldn't trust them

    Facts. 

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.