REO in NJ, $11k deposit held by sellers atty, and TITLE PROBLEMS

REO in NJ, $11k deposit held by sellers atty, and TITLE PROBLEMS

Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 87 votes

Hello everybody, I posted here before about the property I was working on. The closing was supposed to be on Aug 3rd, 2015. As usual with REO's, that day came and went. We were waiting for the indemnity agreement and another document to be obtained by the seller. That took a month extra. I'm buying the property from Wells Fargo.

The sellers attorneys have $11,000 of my deposit on a purchase price of $46,000. Per the contract the sellers are to provide a "Bargain and Sale CVG (type of deed). Title of the property will be free from all claims or rights of others, except as described in sections 6,7, and 8 of this agreement". Section 6 is tenants- does not apply. Section 8 is building and zoning- all good, does not apply. Section 7 says:
"... Title to the property shall be good, marketable and insurable, at regular rates, by any title insurance company licensed to do business in the State of New jersey, subject only to the claims and rights described in this section and section 6 ..." It goes on to say that seller shall have 30 days to fix title if if the title shall contain any exceptions etc. or I can break the contract and get my deposit back (I think. I don't exactly trust wells fargo!)

Now that you know what the contract says, here is the problem. My attorney called today saying that judgments came up during the title search. $280,000 worth of judgements... I obtained title insurance but that only covers me up to the purchase price which is $46,000. So the remaining amount of judgements is not covered by title insurance. Wells Fargo wants to close BUT a title with judgements is NOT a clear title like they promised to deliver  in the first place (first paragraph above)!! What the hell do I do now? 

They are tough to work with, unwilling to change anything, they want to sell me a property with judgements and act like if everything was ok? My attorney said I might get myself into a position where I buy the house, fix it up, and a company that has a judgement against it may show up and take it to cover the judgement... I would be stuck with, no money, and no house. My attorney says its a huge risk and I can clearly see that. I'm also afraid I will lose my $11k deposit on a technicality if I back out now. Not to mention this is a very sweet deal... Have you ever dealt with anything like that? What would you do?

P.S. To anybody with a similar issue, I read a little bit on the forums and I see people asking if they should get their own title search done. YES. If I used WF title company to do the search I can bet you my right arm that their search would NOT advise me of the issues with the title that exist! 

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Upen PatelPro Member
Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
11y
@Jake Recz Use their hammer against them. Have your attorney send over letter pointing out that they have not delivered a clean title as required by the contract. They either need to clear the title or void the contract and return the deposit.

Don't go to closing. If you do then you will own it all. It better to let a sweet deal go then to take the sweet deal and swallow a bitter pill.

Upen Patel

Federal NMLS# 1374243

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  • Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2015 · 378 posts · 183 votes
    11y

    are you getting a mortgage on the property?

  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 87 votes
    11y

    @Cameron SkinnerNo, I'm buying the property all cash

  • Upen PatelPro Member
    Lender · Nationwide Lender · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 814 votes
    11y
    @Jake Recz Use their hammer against them. Have your attorney send over letter pointing out that they have not delivered a clean title as required by the contract. They either need to clear the title or void the contract and return the deposit.

    Don't go to closing. If you do then you will own it all. It better to let a sweet deal go then to take the sweet deal and swallow a bitter pill.

    Upen Patel

    Federal NMLS# 1374243

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    11y

    OK. This property went through a foreclosure - or was a deed in lieu recorded?  

    In foreclosure, provided that subordinate lien and judgment holders are properly notified of the foreclosure, those junior positions should become extinguished as liens against the property. An IRS lien would have the normal 120 day right of redemption, so if the foreclosure auction occurred at least that far back then the IRS lien would also be extinguished IF the USA was properly notified of the foreclosure. 

    So, whether notification occurred properly is important. 

    If a deed in lieu was recorded, then the junior liens did not go through the legal process that would have extinguished the junior liens - that is why I raise this as a possible reason the judgments might remain as a lien. 

    Now, it's also possible these judgments are more senior than the position of Wells Fargo before the foreclosure happened - but I would venture a guess that this is unlikely. 

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    Is the title company going to give you title insurance? I doubt it. Then it seems like a slam dunk you have the right to get out of the deal.

    My guess is you are going to have to fight a little but I wouldn't put us with that crap. 

    However something isn't clear here. Why are their judgements if the property was foreclosed on? Wouldn't those judgments have been wiped out?

    I don't think this is a do it yourself matter and you are going to have to get a good attorney involved to figure out exactly what is going on here.

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    @Jake Recz Yes, something is not adding up, or you're not fully understanding something.  What Exactly are the $280k in "judgments"?  If they are attached to the property, they are Not delivering clear insurance title, and you Will be entitled to your EM back.  Understand though, and I'm sure your attorney realizes this.....if these judgments were junior to the foreclosing mtg, and they were properly shamed/served, they were extinguished....but, there won't be any "satisfaction" recorded for these any where, they are removed simply by "operation of law".

  • Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2015 · 378 posts · 183 votes
    11y

    ok every state is different but a buddy of mine who owns a title company will buy homes with irs judgement liens he gets them really really low because of the liens.  the liens expire after 10 years,  even though irs could foreclose as a matter of practice they don't.  The only problem would be if you want to sell before experation.  Also if you are able to get title insurance they will defend a foreclosure suit not just refund your purchase price.  Realistically I dought seriously if any debtor would spend the money to try and foreclose on a property this small.  It cost them at a minimum of 20k in legal fees on a contested foreclosure.  Do you know who the debtor is?

  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 87 votes
    11y

    @Upen Patel That is exactly what I plan on telling my attorney tomorrow if we do not somehow work this out. I can't afford to go into this deal and lose it all down the road.

    @Steve Babiak The property went through a foreclosure. I did some research earlier and found out that those liens should have been extinguished just like you're saying. I cannot wrap my head around why they are not. What REALLY sticks out is that the liens on the document I have in front of me do not add up to $280,000, and they just don't make sense.   The lien holders listed look like they have nothing to do with the property. Im assuming that from just looking up the lien holders online. Plus, all of them are vs. Wells Fargo Bank NA. For example one of them is Leisure Village West Assoc vs Wells Fargo Bank NA for $6,187.92. That is some condo assoc that has a case open with Well Fargo. Meanwhile I'm buying a single family home... I'm very confused now. I'm gonna attach the document I have in front of me below. Maybe someone can tell me what all this means. The attorney says those are liens against the property but that just does not add up. 


    @Ned Carey To add more mystery to all this, it seems like the title insurance company is more than willing to give me insurance! Can you believe that? I would expect them to kick me to the curb and refuse to underwrite... As I stated earlier in my response to Steve, I would expect the foreclosure to wipe out all those judgements. Those judgements should have been gone by now. 

    @Wayne Brooks I'm attaching the document that is causing all this drama below. Either my attorney and I are both missing something or I'm losing my mind here over nothing. The judgements in the document are all against Wells Fargo Bank and they are from creditors that in a normal world would not have anything to do with a single family home in a little town. How can a condo association from 50 miles away have anything to do with a single family home? That is what is really causing my confusion here. Please take a look at the 3 page document on the bottom of the post. 

    @Cameron Skinner That is a great way to do business for somebody who knows how the system works. $20k in legal fees is a lot of money when the debt is as low as $6k as it is on this property. It wouldn't make sense to go after it in the first place. Plus the title ins company appears to be willing to write the policy without a problem... 

  • Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    11y

    Important, check the B section of exclusions in your title Committment? Sounds like someone pulled up All judgments against WF in the county, since they are the current property owner. HOA judgments with WF as a defendant, on an unrelated property, of course do not apply. Just to be clear, your SFH could most certainly be part of an HOA, but I assume you know it not to be.

  • Investor · Panama City, FL · Member since 2015 · 378 posts · 183 votes
    11y

    if the title company is willing to write a policy you should be fine,  they never give it without a clean title search, your attorney may be overly cautious or may not have all the docs clearing the liens,  you may want to sit down with the title agent, in Florida every title company is required to have an attorney on staff, if that is the case in your state you might want to talk to him as well.  It's been my experience in regards to title issues my title agent is more knowledgable than my realestate attorney. 

  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 87 votes
    11y

    Thank you everybody for all your responses. I have never been more confused in my life. The property went through a foreclosure so all judgements should be removed, meanwhile something is halting the transaction and I can't quite put my finger on it. The document that is causing all the confusion is attached below. Hopefully somebody can decipher the legal jargon below and explain this to me. I spoke with my attorney earlier and I will call her again in the morning to work on this some more. Looking at this document with my inexperienced eye it looks like this has nothing to do with the property, and it all lays on the shoulder of Wells Fargo, but I would rather get a second opinion from somebody who knows what all this it. My attorney says the judgements from this document cloud the title, how, I do not know. I apologize for the captures being sideways. I could not figure out how to flip them. 

  • Manville, NJ · Member since 2015 · 141 posts · 87 votes
    11y

    @Wayne Brooks I've been looking at all the documents all afternoon and could not figure this out. What you're saying may very well be the issue here. All the judgements are against Wells Fargo on this document. They have nothing to do with the property. It is slowly starting to look like a clerical mistake that is causing a firestorm here. I suppose it is possible that my attorney did not pick this up. I realize that SFH could be a part of a HOA like you mentioned. This is definitely not the issue in this case. There is not HOA and no HOA dues for that property. Just a stand alone SFH.

    @Cameron Skinner Thank you for the advice. I'm gonna get in touch with the title agent tomorrow morning and hopefully get to this bottom of all this. As you said, if the title company is willing to write a policy there should be no issues. I would imagine they would never take such a huge risk for a couple hundred dollars that I'm obligated to pay them for the policy. 

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