Copper Pipes stolen from HomeSteps REO while under contract

Copper Pipes stolen from HomeSteps REO while under contract

Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes

I'm currently under contract on a 4-unit building Freddie Mac foreclosure in Baltimore city and the copper pipes have been stolen while under contract.  So this deal has been crazy from the get go dealing with an un-interested listing agent with shady dealings.  Even when the unit was vandalized, the listing agent did not tell the asset manager until I sent in an addendum two weeks later asking for the damage to be repaired or price reduction.  So the bank gathered their contractor bids, police report and etc and countered my price reduction today.  Since its four units, I requested a 50k reduction due to the bids that I received. Their contractor provided a 25k bid however the bank responded with only a 10k price reduction.  Has anyone had any experience with negotiating with REOs after vandalism has taken place at the property while under contract.  I don't understand why the bank would only offer a 10k reduction when 25k worth of damage has been reported.  Any tips on how to move forward?  My contract does say that the property is sold "as is" of the date it was executed.

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Ned CareyPro Member
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Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
10y

@Brittnee Robinson  in a row house in Baltimore a full re-plumb is around 5K (without wall work) So that would be about 20k for a 4 unit. From your description you do not need a full re-plumb. I am sure they did not touch drain lines. You don't even need a full re-plumb of pressure lines.

Keep in mind estimates can vary 100% !   A investor type contractor might do for $5k, when a guy from a big plumbing company with yellow page ads, TV and Radio ads might charge double that.

If I am the bank, I am going to credit you for what Chuck with a truck or Pete with a pickup charges, not Rick with a radio ad.

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  • Newark, NJ · Member since 2015 · 162 posts · 102 votes
    10y
    Been there, done that... We went through an almost identical situation with Freddie Mac on a house where five bathrooms, the laundry room, the AC compressors, and a handful of walls were decimated by copper thieves. The seller's agent simply did not care or moved a finger. Our agent had to contact the asset managers and seller's attorneys directly. In the end, they agreed to a $8,800 price reduction which basically covers the repair with PEX and drywall. Apparently this kind of vandalism is so common Freddie and Fannie
  • Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    I appreciate the feedback!   Apparently, the asset manager has corrected the issue with the person handling the case by firing the transaction manager.  How did you come up with the $8,800 price. Was that from Freddie's contractor bid or your own?  In my case, the 10k reduction would be fine if this is a single family unit.  However, they took copper from each unit....ugggh.  The seller contractor's bid from Freddie was 25k so I'm not sure why they are only offering a portion of that as reduction. I am thinking to counter with the 25k reduction from the bid they received...

    @Ro Maga undefined

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    I think you need to do some tougher negotiation but I would read my contract carefully first. If you were granted possession at the time of the signing for example, you  may be out of luck. 

    I would think 25K would be more than ample but it depends on the condition. Does this property already need a lot of work? It may not be much more to do a full re-plumb. It probably needed some plumbing work already. If it was in pristine condition , which I doubt, I would expect a larger discount for the work.

  • Newark, NJ · Member since 2015 · 162 posts · 102 votes
    10y

    My initial post got cut off.. Oh, well.  I was going to say, that Freddie and Fannie have been doing these kind of vandalism/price reduction negotiations for a while, which is both good and bad.  Good to the degree that there is ample precedent for them to offer a price reduction; bad because well, this is not their first rodeo. It seems unlike they'll agree to a reduction that deviates much from what they've been doing for the last few years. 

    In our case, we submitted two quotes with our request. The contractor who had a quote that was more favorable to us didn't get the paperwork to our agent on time... or ever.  The second quote itemized repairs in such a way, that Freddie only agreed to pay for costs of plumbing and wall repair.  All the tile work that was destroyed when they took the pipes was itemized under bathroom renovations by this contractor, and there wasn't any room to negotiate after that. (There were other factors we were dealing with).    

    You may want to get a couple of quotes yourself. Not knowing the kind of damage the building suffered, 50K seems like a pretty hefty price tag. Ours is a MFH too. 

    Good luck!

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    Hi @Ned Carey -  Well, the property was completely renovated back in 2007/8 so much of the work (electrical, all new hvac, plumbing) was done and permitted.  Mostly Cosmetic (painting, appliances, new carpet) on my end after it has sat for a year or two empty.  There was some plumbing work that required that resulted from a leak in April that one weekend where the temperatures dipped below freezing but otherwise everything was in great condition.  The thieves damaged the sheetrock in the basement to get the copper from the main water line, the lines running to the laundry area, the pipes under three of the kitchen sinks, the pipes to 4 water heaters and they snipped part of the copper lines that runs from the AC to the furnace on two units. This also possibly damaged the coils in both furnaces.  Luckily, they did not touch the bathrooms or the actual AC Units.

    I've never run across this scenario before so trying to estimate how much this would cost to repair has been an experience especially since we are going to need to create more holes to repair everything.  I countered the bank yesterday with 20k reduction and they responded today with 15k.  I am waiting on numbers from my contractor today to see if I can work with this since I got this at such a great price for the property.  I maybe OK but I still don't get why the bank wouldn't just give me the estimate price - especially since they will probably file an insurance claim which will pay them the amount.  The contract has a clause to sell in same condition "as-is" from when we entered into the agreement so we have some wiggle room.  I am using a renovation loan for this project so I am now updating my SOW to include the additional work.

  • Rental Property Investor · Manteno, IL · Member since 2009 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    10y

    50k to replumb a 4 unit does seem a bit excessive.  Thats 12k a unit. Did they get the service line or something too? Water heaters gone? That price may be the issue there. Maybe their contractor is a lot more accurate than the one you got.

    I guess it would depend on the size and number of bathrooms in each unit. And the layout. And if there's a laundry connection too.  But I can tell you I had a complete replumb of a 3/2, 2,000 sq ft house that included all new copper and all new drain lines and that only came in at 6,500 for labor and material.

    So either you have the best plumber on the planet or something is off with that bid.

    50k???

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    Yea... I thought it was pretty high as well.  I needed a quick estimate so my agent recommended to call this plumbing company who is known to give high estimates in Baltimore city.

    Water heaters are still in place. There is a laundry room on the 1st floor with hookups for two washers.

    The plumber quoted me a full re-plumb of 29k!  The building is 3300 sq ft and each unit has one bathroom.  Their HVAC guy quoted me 16k and neither quote included drywall repair.  The AC units are on the roof so they were spared but they will need to add refrigerant to two of the units after repairing the lines.  I probably insulted the bank with the 50k reduction but I didn't know better!  But its really helping to hear this feedback from you guys to get a better idea on how much this can cost to repair.

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Brittnee Robinson  in a row house in Baltimore a full re-plumb is around 5K (without wall work) So that would be about 20k for a 4 unit. From your description you do not need a full re-plumb. I am sure they did not touch drain lines. You don't even need a full re-plumb of pressure lines.

    Keep in mind estimates can vary 100% !   A investor type contractor might do for $5k, when a guy from a big plumbing company with yellow page ads, TV and Radio ads might charge double that.

    If I am the bank, I am going to credit you for what Chuck with a truck or Pete with a pickup charges, not Rick with a radio ad.

  • Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2014 · 132 posts · 74 votes
    10y
    Been there. . Fannie and Freddie certainly have dealt with this before many many times so they know what they're doing when negotiating repairs. . Plus it also could be the case where if you were to not accept their 10k reduction they could easily just put it back up for sale and sell it to someone else for a similar price.
  • Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Ned Carey  Hahaha! I learn something new with every deal.  Go with Chuck with a truck or Pete with a pickup type bids when trying to negotiate with the bank!  Lesson learned!  Thanks so much for your feedback - I REALLY appreciate it.

    This is my fourth REO deal and the first to have the copper stolen!

  • Ned CareyPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2008 · 17k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    10y

    @Brittnee Robinson stolen copper is common in Baltimore. I am actually surprised when I see a vacant house with the copper intact. It does seem that REOs are a little less susceptible to it. 

  • Miami, FL · Member since 2013 · 8 posts · 0 votes
    10y

    @Joe Cantanzriti  You are right. The new listing agent mentioned she was not surprised by the 10k offer so I guess I am lucky to get them up to 15k.   This particular property had another offer which was 30k over my accepted offer (found this out after someone approached us while doing the inspection and mentioned he placed a bid as well).  They would absolutely have no issue getting another offer on this place even with the missing pipes due to the great location. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Waldorf, MD · Member since 2015 · 155 posts · 76 votes
    10y

    @Brittnee Robinson thanks for posting this. I'm learning alot from this thread. Please let us know how things turn out. And congratulations on scoring a Multifamily in Baltimore City. Folks say they are rare. You say it's a good deal so that's even better! I sent you a PM to connect further as I will be purchasing a Multifamily family to renovate and live in one of the units within the next year. 

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