Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2017 · 140 posts · 37 votes
Question to Philadelphia investors. How hard is it to obtain a permit to use a house as two family building. My husband and I are new to investing and when we bought a duplex in 19152 area, never bothered to check the zoning on it.
Turned out city doesn’t have any record of the use of that property. It is build as multyfalimy and zoned as RSA-3. So city refused to give us two rental licenses on it. Is it possible to fix it without a zoning atterney? All suggestions are welcome.
Hi everyone! I'm gonna piggyback on this topic real quick.
@Account Closed I'm not sure if you have checked there before, but I was told that if you check on http://www.phila.gov/zoningarchive/ and the documents are not there, it's best to assume they don't have it. I have seen use registration and variance applications on there before if the property has them. I think instead of structuring the offer to have the contingency for zoning, I would actually check the zoning as a part of your initial screen before making an offer. Once you see something that spark your interest, checking the documents on the zoning archive should take less than 5 mins. An investor I know had the same problem with zoning, hired a lawyer and was unsuccessful. However, she then just flipped it as a SFH and sold it as that. I don't know much about Airbnb rental requirement in Philadelphia but I wonder if that's an option to get around the duplex problem? Either rent both units on Airbnb, or I have read about people partnering up with their tenants to rent out the other unit.
A question I have on this topic is that a multi-unit I'm looking at in Philadelphia has RSA5. There's a document in the zoning archive back in 1947 for the property regarding use registration and permit as a duplex. The stamp said no registration was required for use as a 2 family housing and nothing has changed since then. I'm assuming that means the property is grandfathered in? Can someone confirm this please?
My buddy owns several properties in Philadelphia. His father works for L&I and it's very difficult to get a legal duplex.
He has two properties that are triplexes, and each tenant pays their portion of the utilities. He's never not had a renter and I'm not quite sure of how legal it is. But each floor has a kitchen, bathroom, living room and bedroom and he's never had trouble renting them.
I went through the exact same thing—my duplex was assessed for taxes and other indicators as a duplex, but was actually zoned single family (RSA-3, I think). Same exact description as the "2-4 apartment stone mason" you mentioned.
The previous owner got rejected for a use permit, so he used the building illegally as a duplex. I got it rezoned before operating.
Highly recommend getting it rezoned before you do anything. Definitely hire a zoning attorney to at least consult on your path forward.
@Account Closed I also am in a similar situation. My house was converted to a duplex by the previous owner and has been used as a duplex for years despite having RSA-3 zoning on Philadelphia property records. I think the previous owner did a lot of things without getting zoning/permits including building a deck.
However, when I went to L&I to get a rental license for the unit I rent out (I live in the other unit), I was able to obtain it. My guess is that the public Philadelphia Property Records just have not been updated to reflect my property is a duplex. L&I doesn't seem like the most organized and efficient entity.
One piece of advice for dealing with L&I if you do need to go down there to straighten things out - go first thing in the morning. Once they get backed up, you may have to wait for hours before you get helped.
Thank you Josh and Richard for your reply. Was is difficult and expensive to obtain a new zoning?
I've heard you need to collect some signitures and stuff. And who is doing a floorplan drowning and can you suggest any good zoning atterney in NE Philadelphia?
And also a question. How do we avoid such a mistake befor buying. How do i structure the offer correctly, what kind of contingency do i put in and how do i verify the zoning after the offer is excepted. In my area the competition is so CRAZY , a good duplex usually goes pending next day.
The ZBA will give you a list of addresses you need to notify for the variance. Some RCO's will require signatures from immediate neighbors before issuing their letter of support.
Thank you Tim. So, do you think it is achievable without a lawyer, considering the building is built as duplex, never been modified, in fact it is located on the street where the same exact type of duplexes are on both sides of the street and on the next two streets. It is zoned as RSA-3 though.
I'm not a zoning expert. But based on what you wrote, I would think this property is grandfathered in. It seems like a stretch to me that someone would illegally convert this building into a duplex. Pull all the records to see when the first construction was. Also check the records to see if you can find proof that it was always used as a duplex (e.g. two sewer bills, etc.).
Consult with a zoning law expert, but I don't see you getting a variance for this property. It's a fairly difficult standard to meet. Here's an article on the topic involving a recent case in Philadelphia.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
Thank you Chris. The building has seperate evening except water. In fact, we own another one with just the same floor plan.
One of the units might have been owner occupied at some point. But i have leases for both units which i inherited with the purchased property. Tenants just moved out they were month to month, living there since 2009. But where do I get the record of how it was occupied before ? I don't even know if the owner ever had renting license .
Hi everyone! I'm gonna piggyback on this topic real quick.
@Account Closed I'm not sure if you have checked there before, but I was told that if you check on http://www.phila.gov/zoningarchive/ and the documents are not there, it's best to assume they don't have it. I have seen use registration and variance applications on there before if the property has them. I think instead of structuring the offer to have the contingency for zoning, I would actually check the zoning as a part of your initial screen before making an offer. Once you see something that spark your interest, checking the documents on the zoning archive should take less than 5 mins. An investor I know had the same problem with zoning, hired a lawyer and was unsuccessful. However, she then just flipped it as a SFH and sold it as that. I don't know much about Airbnb rental requirement in Philadelphia but I wonder if that's an option to get around the duplex problem? Either rent both units on Airbnb, or I have read about people partnering up with their tenants to rent out the other unit.
A question I have on this topic is that a multi-unit I'm looking at in Philadelphia has RSA5. There's a document in the zoning archive back in 1947 for the property regarding use registration and permit as a duplex. The stamp said no registration was required for use as a 2 family housing and nothing has changed since then. I'm assuming that means the property is grandfathered in? Can someone confirm this please?
@Lana Lee in my experience the zoning archive did not allow me to be grandfathered into a multifamily. If buildings have been recently used as multifamily with proper paperwork they can be grandfathered in. If they have been vacant you will have to pull permits to get it up to speed only if the current zoning code allows. If the current zoning code does not allow you will have to go through the zoning processs. I would suggest you get a lawyer. It is required for anyone owning through a corporate entity like an llc, but even still it is good to have.
Would highly suggest using an licensed expediting company that handles issues such as this. Also, if they cannot address they usually work with an attorney in zoning that can work it through as well.
No zoning lawyer worth hiring will take these cases on a contingency basis. In many situations, it's incredibly time-consuming work.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
@Lana Lee in my experience the zoning archive did not allow me to be grandfathered into a multifamily. If buildings have been recently used as multifamily with proper paperwork they can be grandfathered in. If they have been vacant you will have to pull permits to get it up to speed only if the current zoning code allows. If the current zoning code does not allow you will have to go through the zoning processs. I would suggest you get a lawyer. It is required for anyone owning through a corporate entity like an llc, but even still it is good to have.
No zoning lawyer worth hiring will take these cases on a contingency basis. In many situations, it's incredibly time-consuming work.
Disclaimer: While I’m an attorney licensed to practice in PA, I’m not your attorney. What I wrote above does not create an attorney/client relationship between us. I wrote the above for informational purposes. Do not rely on it as legal advice. Always consult with your attorney before you rely on the above information.
Where do I find a zoning atterney worth hiring? Nobody I know had the same problem.
@Account Closed prior to closing on my duplex in West Philadelphia I had done a lot of research because the home was zoned RSA5. I then checked the zoning archives and found documentation showing that it had been used as a duplex since 1949!
Long story short, while performing my due diligence I was snooping around landlord-tenant court files involving the previous owner who had run into the same issue as far as attempting to obtain 2 rental licenses. I will look it up again and advise you of the attorney's name on the docket.
@Account Closed prior to closing on my duplex in West Philadelphia I had done a lot of research because the home was zoned RSA5. I then checked the zoning archives and found documentation showing that it had been used as a duplex since 1949!
Long story short, while performing my due diligence I was snooping around landlord-tenant court files involving the previous owner who had run into the same issue as far as attempting to obtain 2 rental licenses. I will look it up again and advise you of the attorney's name on the docket.