5 Duplex owner finance

5 Duplex owner finance

Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes

I am meeting with an 82 yr old lady in a couple days to begin discussions of owner financing her five paid for duplexes. She's had them over 20 years. She's been managing them for the most part for the last 6 years. She does have a tenant that helps collect rent and does some repairs she pays $300 a month. She told me some of the work she has done and sounds like they're in pretty good shape. It would appear rent is low but my only current source for rent comps is Zillow. If Zillow is correct, she's low by $2000 a month on the 10 units.

She thinks they are worth $900,000 - $1,000,000. A 10% cap rate puts the price at $850,000. I am thinking of offering her 8-10% down, maybe a 4.5-5.0% interest rate, on 30 year term. The higher interest rate because limited amount down. The 30 year term allows the cash flow to be $1000 more a month.

With her being 82, what's the exit strategy when she passes? Is it possible to pass those payments on to her 57 and 61 yr old children to maybe avoid some inheritance taxes? I could also offer to refinance in 5-10 years and pay them off.

What advice do you have for me?

Thanks

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Buy and Hold Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2013 · 450 posts · 270 votes
9y

@Michael H., have you considered a master lease and option on all the properties? Offer to pay her the current NOI per month and then you get the upside. Get an option for the $900k she wants for five years from now. Master Lease it for 5 years, then exercise your option. I would not depend on the Zestimate for your rents. Use Rentometer, or better yet, buy a rent report from Cozy. If you can raise rent $2,000/month, that's $24k increase in the NOI and a $240k increase in the value of the portfolio. Over 5 years, you should surpass the option price of $900k.

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  • Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes
    9y

    Michael,

    I run into the elderly sellers a lot. Find out what one would be valued at alone. Then consider the valuation based on it as a portfolio. Check rentometer.com  to see what local rents are like. I have even placed CL adds to see if I got any bites from renters. What do her leases look like, what are the terms, what does she pay for vs. the tenants. PHEW! so much more info needed. It's great being able to get in w low money down and great job finding this lead.

    What are the rents man!?

    Fill out calculator on the deal and share it on here. That will help us help you a lot.

    M

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y

    Lots and lots to share for sure.

    I appreciate the advice on looking at each one individually. I checked rent-o-meter and the rents can go up a minimum of $150 a unit and up to $250 a unit. With 10 units it appears to be a good value add. All tenants pay their own utilities, mow their grass, and snow removal.

    She wants $900,000 - $1,000,000. I am going to try to talk her to $850k based on the fact she'd have to pay real estate agent a minimum of $45k. But anyway, here are the #'s for $900k with her current rents @ $7925. It looks like the rents could even go over $1100 a month now.

    Purchase Price - $900,000         / $850,000

    Down Payment - $90,000          / $850,000

    Interest rate - 4.5%                   / 5%?

    Full rent - $7925                       / $9000 (max for all could go over $10k at current market)

    Taxes - annually - $7934          / Monthly - $661

    Insurance - she pays $340 monthly

    Management - $555 monthly   / $630

    Cap Ex - $531 monthly

    Vacancy - $634 monthly         /$720

    Annual Gross income - $95,100           / $108,000 (at $9k a month)

    Annual Expenditures - $32,662           

    $900,000 purchase price with current rent Cap Rate - 6.94%  rent at $9k 8%  - rent at $10k 9%

    $850,000 ...... Cap Rate 7.35% - rent at $9k 8.64% - rent at $10k 9.84%

    One big question is the exit strategy on the owner finance. Any thoughts on that?

  • Specialist · CHICAGO · Member since 2015 · 680 posts · 650 votes
    9y

    That's a $330k value add to the property if you can raise rents $250/m. Restructure the rents and then find a lender who will re-fi your whole portfolio. You should be able to get 75% LTV (loan to value) as long as your rental income as a DCR of 1.25

    If you don't know what those mean (LTV, DCR) I suggest going and getting very familiar with the terms. A commercial loan officer will expect you to speak their language...its like visting another country...don't expect them to know your language and take some time to learn the basics and apologize when you don't understand. You should then be able to pay the owner back in full.

  • Investor · Bothell, WA · Member since 2015 · 88 posts · 55 votes
    9y

     I have purchased under very similar circumstances. Add a 2 year balloon payment to the terms. That provides light at the end of the tunnel for the seller and her kids. It also gives you ample time to season the deal and find a bank to refinance. There is always the possibility that both parties may even want to extend after 2 years.

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Thank you Sam R. That's a good option.
  • Mindy JensenPro Member
    BiggerPockets Money Podcast Host · Longmont, CO · Member since 2014 · 7k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    9y

    @Michael H. , I have not been in this situation, but I can only imagine what sort of issues her children may have with this.

    First, is she of sound mind? It doesn't appear you are taking advantage of her, but you want her children to also not think this.

    Have an attorney familiar with this process draw up all the paperwork. In a case like this, saving a buck in legal fees is not the way to go. (Not that you were suggesting that, just saying...)

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2013 · 450 posts · 270 votes
    9y

    @Michael H., have you considered a master lease and option on all the properties? Offer to pay her the current NOI per month and then you get the upside. Get an option for the $900k she wants for five years from now. Master Lease it for 5 years, then exercise your option. I would not depend on the Zestimate for your rents. Use Rentometer, or better yet, buy a rent report from Cozy. If you can raise rent $2,000/month, that's $24k increase in the NOI and a $240k increase in the value of the portfolio. Over 5 years, you should surpass the option price of $900k.

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Mindy Jensen I do believe she is of sound mind. She's been self managing these for the last 6 years, mostly by herself but with a little help from a tenant. I did ask her about her kids. She has a 57 and 61 year old. I definitely want to address them with her. I want to do the right thing by all. There's a win win for all here I believe. We'll see though. There's no way I would do this without an attorney. Thank you for checking me in all these areas. It's important.
  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Chris Eaker what do you mean by master lease option? The figures I showed were based on Rentometer. I've not heard of Cozy. I'll check it out. What do you like about them?
  • Investor · Minnetonka, MN · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 86 votes
    9y

    @Michael H. The master lease option is used frequently for commercial REI but also works for residential property. Basically it is structured where the seller gives you a lease to use the property for a specified monthly payment and a certain amount of time (5 years?). The option part of it gives you the right/option to purchase the property at the end of the lease for a price that is usually decided upon at the time the lease is created. What makes it a "master" lease is that you have the ability to rehab and make alterations as you see fit, sub-lease (rent) to others, and generally try to capture the value-add. This can be done with very little down (5-10%) but the seller usually has to own free and clear (like you said she does). There are multiple exit strategies for master lease options, as well, so I would agree that this is worth some investigation.

    Here is a link to a short video by William Bronchick, attorney/author where he explains it a bit better than the above. (The pertinent part starts around 1:00.)

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Great information Scott Sirovy. Certainly worth more investigating as you said.
  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Also, what does it look like if I buy them individually or as a packaged deal?
  • Rental Property Investor · Miami Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 106 votes
    9y

    @Michael H. are the taxes you mentioned ($7934) based on an old (really low) assessed value or is that based on what the new taxes will be for a sale price of $900k? A lot of people overlook this in underwriting a deal... often times when there is a property that has been owned for a long time (paid off) it has a much lower assessed value than what the sales price will be and people don't realize that the taxes will be recalculated for the new (much higher) sale price.

  • Buy and Hold Investor · Knoxville, TN · Member since 2013 · 450 posts · 270 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael H.:

    Chris Eaker what do you mean by master lease option?
    The figures I showed were based on Rentometer. I've not heard of Cozy. I'll check it out. What do you like about them?

     Check out Susan Lassiter-Lyons course if you're interested in learning more about master lease options. https://masterleaseoptionmethod.com

  • Laveen, AZ · Member since 2016 · 584 posts · 528 votes
    9y

    Does anything need fixing? 

    What does the insurance cover?  Does it cover the sewer lines?

    How much is the inspection and appraisal going to cost you?

    Are all tenants current on rent and have been current?

    Are there any developments planned in the immediate area that would positively or negatively impact the value of your property?

    I'm just asking out of curiosity and to learn from your experiene :-)

  • Rental Property Investor · Broken Arrow, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    Looks like a great deal, if you can make it work.  If I was trying to do this deal, with her age, I'd meet with her and her children and suggest they speak to an attorney about setting up a trust, that way her children's interest would be protected also with no worries on their part. This will protect you as well, the last thing you want is to do the deal, and she passes away and that not be addressed up front and the children decide to try to sue you.  Even if not setting up a trust, an attorney needs to do the contracts and address that possibility.

  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Marty True those were last year's assessed taxes. From what I've seen the tax assessment is always lower than the real value. How would I calculate the difference? Right now each duplex is valued somewhere around $180-$190,000 according to her agent and sold comps I've seen. They're assessed as low as $138k and as high as $154k.
  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Chris Eaker I will definitely check it out. Thanks
  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Rodney Sums all very good questions. I'll know more after I meet with her on Monday. I'm very sure the sewer lines are not part of the insurance. I believe she had 2 lines replaced in the last 5 years. It does sound like she's done some remodeling and updates but I don't know yet. My method of inspections are to have roofers, plumbers, electricians, and hvac techs evaluate the homes vs a general home inspection. I would pay each of them a fee to review and report. I would imagine for these it would be roughly $1000. I use a company called Hydro Physics to inspect the sewer lines. For $250 they inspect and provide video on cd and a report for each line. With 8 that could get costly and I would hope to get a discount. I'll provide more info once I get it.
  • Investor · Kansas City, MO · Member since 2016 · 130 posts · 64 votes
    9y
    Thanks Jeff Filali I was planning on talking to her about the kids but never thought of the trust. What a great idea. As you talk about it that maybe one of the 1st things I bring up now. It's a delicate balance of getting the best deal I can and not being perceived as taking advantage of an elderly person. I want a win win for sure. I certainly don't want to take advantage of her either.
  • Rental Property Investor · Broken Arrow, OK · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    9y

    @Michael H.  Treat it as if its your grandmother and your parents and how you would want it set up for them.  They'll appreciate your approach and be a lot more open to doing the deal.  I've been able to get some very creative deals by asking and being proactive to the sellers needs and potential concerns.  You never know until you ask.  Thinking outside the box 101

  • Rental Property Investor · Miami Beach, FL · Member since 2015 · 227 posts · 106 votes
    9y

    @Michael H. you can start here: http://www.jacksongov.org/187/Determination-of-Tax...

    I'm assuming the properties are in Jackson County but if not, check that county's property appraiser/assessor website.

    Not sure exactly how your assessor does things there but here in Miami-Dade County, when a property is sold, the purchase amount pretty much becomes the new assessed value.

    I have an apartment building I'm considering that is assessed at $1.3M with taxes of $27k/yr. The potential sale price is around $4.3M so the taxes will jump to around $83k/yr - this affects CAP rate and NOI.

  • Investor · Minnetonka, MN · Member since 2016 · 123 posts · 86 votes
    9y
    Originally posted by @Michael H.:

    Also, what does it look like if I buy them individually or as a packaged deal?

     I'm not sure but would imagine some economies of scale if there was only a single master lease for the package. If, in the future, you decide to sell off an individual property you would probably have to exercise your option for all of them. If you had separate master lease options for each property then you would simply exercise one option at a time. Of course, these would be good things to ask a RE attorney.

    Do you know how the seller is holding the properties? In her name or in a single entity or one entity per property? (My guess would be no entities considering how long she's had them.) The ideal would be if they were in entities (like an LLC) because she could sell you her interest in the entities themselves instead of transferring ownership of the properties. Many times this type of transaction doesn't trigger a notification to the local taxing authority so they wouldn't have a reason to bump up the tax basis.

  • Phoenix, AZ · Member since 2015 · 345 posts · 138 votes
    9y

    Good luck with the purchase! Keep in mind some possible added expenses right off the bat once you go to reposition the property by raising the rents.  Might have to spiff up the units a bit to attract those higher rents with good tenants. 

    Will the income from the current tenants be good enough for the rent hike or will that drive some tenants out?  That might be to your benefit so you can get in there quickly and update the unit and get a higher paying renter in there.  Hopefully you will have a healthy pool of solid applicants after the turnovers are complete so you meet your income projections.   

    I did not read all of the above comments but noticed a Master Lease option.  If the property does need a lot of updates and repair to get those rents higher then make sure you can for sure purchase it later on when the option to comes up....because if you cannot then all that work, time, money and possible gained equity goes back to the seller if you cannot exercise your option to purchase when the time comes.  I have not done one before though but I'd be thinking about how you are protected as the buyer so nothing is lost on your end.  Good luck again, I will be following along to learn something new!

    Cody B 

  • Ronald PerichPro Member
    Investor · Granite City, IL · Member since 2014 · 658 posts · 301 votes
    9y

    Before you do a refinance on a seller-financed property, you should always offer up to the seller a discount bulk payment to clear off the loan immediately. Let's say you have $500K of loan remaining with 10 years to go at a good rate. Not sure I would refinance if at a good rate. If I wanted to get money out, I'd consider taking out a line of credit.

    But maybe the note holder would consider a discount to get their money right away. Especially good if the note has passed on to the heirs.

    Or, if the seller has other money, perhaps they would actually consider refinancing you themselves?

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