Wrapping a FHA Mortgage

Wrapping a FHA Mortgage

Dion DePaoliPro Member
Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes

It is almost daily that I see a new question or concern about Wraps and Sub2 here. It got me wondering just how many folks are aware of outcomes of some of those practices really are. It also begs the question, just how sophisticated and knowledgeable those deploying (or trying to) are. I suppose if the amount of questions are some quantification of that knowledge, not very is the answer.

So, I am going to re-post a story from the HUD archives that a couple title companies and other mortgage examiners have posted. I am guessing many have never heard this story. I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not. Playing with fire?
 You decide.

Anyway the story written by Unknown:

Early on in Allen Clussive’s career he agreed to close a transaction wrapping around an existing loan. The sale price on the transaction was $185,000. The buyer could not qualify for new financing and asked the seller to carryback a new loan in the amount of $180,000. The seller agreed, with the understanding that without the buyer obtaining a new loan he would not have the financial means to pay off his existing first loan in the amount of $157,000. The buyer and seller agreed to wrap the existing $157,000 loan with the new seller carryback loan. The underlying loan was an FHA loan originated after 1989.

At closing, the buyer brought in $5,000 for his down payment plus his closing costs. Allen closed the transaction. After closing, the buyer paid the seller and the seller paid the FHA loan on time every month. Upon receipt of the buyer’s payment the seller paid the monthly principal, interest, taxes and insurance (PITI) payments to the lender servicing his FHA loan, and pocketed the balance. Everything was working perfectly until the 13th month when the buyer suddenly stopped making his monthly payments and abandoned the property.

The seller panicked and started to look for an attorney to start foreclosure in order to take the property back and put a renter in the house. In the meantime, the seller kept fronting the payments to the FHA loan to keep the payments current. The seller was making two house payments — one on his old home and one on his new home. Eventually the seller ran out of money and stopped making payments on the FHA loan.

The lender servicing the FHA loan started foreclosure and took the property back. The lender listed the property as an REO — bank–owned property – and resold it. They resold the property for $107,000, which was $50,000 less than they were owed. The lender filed a claim with FHA to be reimbursed the loss of $50,000. FHA sent the lender the $50,000 to cover their claim and the loan file was turned over to an investigator at the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD), the agency who regulates FHA loans.

The HUD investigator discovered the property was transferred to a new buyer, but the buyer’s funds were not used to pay off the FHA loan. The investigator was curious how that could happen and sent a subpoena for Clussive’s file.

The HUD investigator discovered Clussive had facilitated a closing where title was transferred – yet the new owner’s credit did not qualify for the existing FHA loan. The investigator deemed the act unlawful and debarred Clussive from closing another FHA or VA insured loan transaction.

Now, to be honest with you, the action by HUD did not damage Clussive’s career. He lived and worked in an affluent community where FHA and VA loans were not prevalent due to their low loan limits. Sure, every once in a while one of Clussive’s customers would present a contract reflecting new FHA or VA financing and he would have to steer the customer to one of his associates to close the transaction, but for the most part it had little to no effect on his career. However, Clussive would be the first to tell you it definitely had a psychological effect on him.

Had Clussive known HUD issued a directive in 1990 (see below) banning the wrap of an FHA loan by any means — a land contract, a deed of trust, mortgage — he would have never accepted the transaction and agreed to close it. Unfortunately Clussive’s ignorance of the HUD rules did not exempt him from action by HUD.

In order to ensure Clussive never closed another FHA or VA loan, they placed his name on the Excluded Parties List System (EPLS) and Limited Denial Participation list. By placing his name on the list it ensured Clussive would never be able to close another FHA or VA loan or any other transaction involving the Federal Government, such as a HUD or VA REO sale.

Below is a letter from the U.S. Department of Urban Development issued back in 1990 addressing the ramifications of circumventing the credit qualifying process.

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Real Estate Professional · West Palm Beach, FL · Member since 2012 · 23k+ posts · 13k+ votes
12y

@Jay Hinrichs My sentiments exactly.  I remember one post here where the would be sub2 player asked "isn't the whole idea of doing a sub2  is because I'm not actually responsible for the loan?"  There is way too much of a prevailing attitude that they'll slap together a deal, take a cut, then "move on down the road" and not be around or care when it blows up on someone.

See this reply in the discussion

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  • Investor · Central Valley, CA · Member since 2012 · 6k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not.

    I give up, how?

    It's indicated on the borrower's mortgage statements, and it's indicated in their closing paperwork (assuming the have it and/or can find it). 

  • CA · Member since 2011 · 762 posts · 182 votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:
    Originally posted by @Dion DePaoli:

    I am also wondering, if folks know how to determine an FHA loan from other Mortgagees, perhaps not.

    I give up, how?

     Some secrets are best left to the Gurus David.

    Okay, now I'm awake, and did a little research:)

    There's a FHA Case No. indenture on the Deed of Trust ... I'm looking at one now ... easy answer.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2011 · 308 posts · 59 votes
    12y

    @Dion DePaoli et al

    What do you think the future holds for these sub2 promoters? Do you think there will be a mass crumbling of the sub2 "house of cards"? The way I see it is it could happen either by economic forces causing end buyers to default or banks start enforcing DOS in large numbers. What do you think the catalyst will be?

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y
    Originally posted by @Account Closed:

    @Tyler Mills and @Bryce Y. I don't see DOS as the issue in the wrap letters Dion posted. DOS is the least of my concerns. It's about sanctions from a federal agency. Additionally, I was interested to learn that when HUD pays out a claim to a lender on an FHA loan, there is an investigator and an investigation......just like any other type of insurance claim. Lots of sub2 buyers out there think that no harm can come to them if they let the property go to foreclosure. Putting aside their failure to perform per their agreement with the seller, they reason that the loan isn't in their name so there will be no consequences. The case in the letter above suggests otherwise.

    I've been telling folks this for years! Any regulator can request that a loan be called, if they don't follow through with the request the lender can be made to feel they wish they had.

    Who looks at loans, or who can? A short list; HUD, state banking authorities, real estate commissions, FDIC, Comptroller of Currency, the CFPB, FBI, Treasury Department (Fed and State tax examiners) State Insurance Commissions, FHA, VA, USDA, Fannie and Freddie; private types, ALTA, ABA, Insurance carriers, internal auditors of parent banks, title examiners, when banks are public and selling chunks of stock, other institutions may conduct audits for acquisitions and loan purchases along with servicing entities....... I'm sure there are more instances where someone gets to look.

    It doesn't matter what type of loan is made, there are other authorities that can and do examine them, it's not just FHA.

    About 75% of my posts include warnings. That is all I will do, I will never talk about audit trails, examinations or audits in detail, it's classified to some extent, if you need to know more most examination procedures are in the Examination Procedures on the internet of each agency, what is not posted is internal aspects and techniques that I'm never going into in a public forum. These techniques are as old as the agencies themselves, there aren't any new secrets or methods but technology has certainly come in to play as well.

    Again, it's not just an interest rate risk that gets a note called, there can be many issues with all loans that carry the acceleration clause. You are never going to know or figure it out to any degree of certainty. All these folks that say they have done X millions of deals and never had an issue could be lying, exaggerating, or lucky too as it varies somewhat from region to region, the market risks involved at the time, contractual agreements and even the ratings of a bank may influence their actions, you will never know.

    What you do need to understand is that the DOS has been, is and will be used, to what extent, we don't know, but you need an exit in the event you do get caught up in a note being called due! I'd suggest that anyone who argues against that has an agenda of some kind as they are either misleading you or they are uninformed.

    As to liability, any investor in any transaction or related to a transaction or who facilitates any type of transaction accept in RE is exposed to some degree of liability. There is no business transaction in this country that you can be involved in without any liability if you are a party to what was transacted. It's really pathetic hearing newbies trying to do things and are scared to death of acting being afraid of the liability that goes with being in business and worse, trying to finagle ways of avoiding liability for their actions, it can't be done. That's why I constantly harp on a good education in RE instead of treating transactions as a step by step process taught by gurus and lying to them. Good management practices, fair dealing, not being predatory through your greed thinking "that's the way business is conducted" it's not. (Not saying you can't try for a great deal, but there are limits).

    Again, it is dangerous for a newbie to do Sub-2s without understanding the need for a quick exit and the liability (that can not be avoided) to the seller under different circumstances. You need an attorney to review your methods and madness before you hit the streets and understand that you need to perform. There really isn't any take your money and walk away, once you accept money in on the hook for the duration.

    It takes the average person about 7 years to understand what really goes on so that they can operate under less stress we will say. A Realtor under a broker has their stuff reviewed and is "watched" for years, perhaps without their knowledge, until a broker feels comfortable. It's not the number of deals done either, doing a hundred sub2s doesn't make you an expert as you can do them unlawfully or haphazardly 90 times and not have had an issue.....yet. It takes time to get experience. The substitute, somewhat for experience is a sound education. Saying, a new attorney who does a sub2 will probably do it much better than a guy who sold shoes last week, but he may still screw it up. That is where a mentor can help and having support such as this forum. But you are not going to learn in any forum overnight.

    Sorry for the rant, I just broke a promise to myself. Instead of everyone pulling their hair out over the DOS and trying to figure out ways to get around it, accept the fact as part of the business, follow my advice as to an exit and move on! :)

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    @Bryce Y. basing most of my assumptions in line with the same thinking that @Jay Hinrichs has, the Wrapped Borrower is a under qualified Borrower.  I think many folks have this notion that somehow, someway refinances will be passed out in 24 to 36 months of the deal.  To me, that seems pretty optimistic given the state of the credit market for new loans.  

    In addition, the property would have to have equity to refinance.  That seems to be a pretty common missing element in these deals.  I don't think many of the Promoters really understand the exit, blinded by the lure of quick, riskless cash.   There does not seem to be a legitimate concern with paying down the underlying loan debt to make room to maneuver nor a real plan to ensure Wrap Borrower loan qualification in the future.  

    It's hard to say which comes first here. For most of these Wrap Borrowers, any sneeze in the local economic conditions will create payment hardship. I could see how in a given area, several of these deals going sour would cause most portfolio managers or servicers to investigate further. All it takes is one major employer to layoff some folks. To the ideas expressed here, all it takes is for a random sample of FHA loans to find some of these and then have inspectors demand a much large investigation with that servicer and every loan at that servicer could be flushed out. BTW, FHA loans are not the only loans that get reviewed in sample sets - all loans at any Mortgage Servicer are subject to review on demand by the regulatory agencies.

    The trigger could be something we have not even talked about yet.  With all this mortgage litigation, it would not be too crazy for a court of law to demand investigation into any particularly large mortgage investor or originator entire portfolio.  That might be a little more state specific, but it is not unimaginable.  BOA and Chase just got slapped with huge fines.  If any given state attorney general doesn't want to strike a deal and wants to further show the harm bad originations made, perhaps in an effort to increase the idea of damages, that could put all or most of it in review too.

    I don't know if you saw the other thread where we had some discussion around the concepts of extension risk to lenders and contractual obligations of Mortgagees and Security Issuers as also being potential triggers.  

    Ultimately, I suppose it will not likely be just one angle.  As the old saying goes, when it rains, it pours.  

    While I think there is some utility with Sub2 and even less utility with wrap-arounds, for the most part, I think they are just bad ideas. It's an idea most should forget. For those who truly understand all the moving pieces, there are reasons why they are not out there doing these in droves.

  • Dion DePaoliPro Member
    OP
    Real Estate Broker · Northwest Indiana, IN · Member since 2011 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    I always finding it amusing when very similar messages on a given topic by @Bill Gulley myself and other knowledge folks mirror each other. 

    That said, I hear what Bill is saying - sometimes it feels like you are talking to the wall.

  • Investor · Bala Cynwyd, PA · Member since 2014 · 31 posts · 7 votes
    12y

    @Dion DePaoli and @Bill Gulley -I was starting to get the two of you mixed up in these posts. 

    To further the thought of regulators looking at Mortgage Servicers is an article from todays paper where Ocwen Financial had to re-state earnings.  Taking a deeper look, it is under intense regulatory scrutiny, but mainly over transactions with affiliate companies.  What would be interesting is if through these regulatory reviews, a number of Sub2s are uncovered.  Considering Ocwen is the 4th largest mortgage servicer, it's certainly possible.

    Just furthering the thought of triggers, other than rate change.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    12y

    Yes, I know I'm talking to a wall Dion, those that can not get past cognitive biases only hear what they want to hear.

    Barrett we are not the same guys, LOL, yes, that's what I was getting at, there could be many types of events that can uncover transactions, many can be years down the road and guess what.....the clock on the statute of limitations as to fraud begins upon the discovery of the fraud, not when it was made. :) 

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y

    Bill and Dion have good intentions when posting, but I don't think it will change anyone who wants to do a wrap or subject2 until they are caught.


    Joe Gore

  • Investor · The Colony, TX · Member since 2014 · 192 posts · 66 votes
    11y

    Not to be a pain, and I hear what is being said, but I have a question as this pertains to me. I have a house I bought several years ago on an FHA loan. I later turned it into a rental. Recently, the renters moved out in the middle of the night and I decided to sell it and realize my equity. I owe about $100k and the home is worth about $145k.

    I did a FSBO sign out front and immediately was contacted by someone with nearby family. They can afford the payments, and a 20% down payment, but due to bad credit they cannot currently qualify for a loan. Although I consider myself an investor, I'm classified as 'small fries," and I'm not otherwise involved in real estate. I can afford the additional payments if the buyer defaults, and I'm in Texas, which has a fairly straight and simple foreclosure process.

    All that being said to differentiate myself from people looking to do numerous wrap transactions as part of their business model. So, as long as it's just me wrapping my FHA note straight to the buyer, and I can afford the monthly payments and probably could afford to pay the entire note if called due, AND evictions/foreclosures are not an issue here... Does this single transaction still seem worrisome to everyone? I imagine that any random mass audits of various mortgage notes will probably focus on their being current and all the paperwork at the lender being in order, not coming to my house to look through my receipt files (shoebox). And yes, I'm being hopeful, but it is extremely convenient for me to do this transaction, and I like the small monthly profit that trickles in for years, as well as the lack of closing costs and realtor fees.

    Thoughts?

  • Specialist · San Antonio, TX · Member since 2012 · 865 posts · 351 votes
    10y

    Is anyone going to answer Dean? When are the the experts going to reappear?

    If I would of read all of the warnings by the well meaning contributors I would still been on the sideline in fear.

    The first number of sub2 deals I ever did was with sellers that would of had a foreclosure on their credit if someone didn't help them.  Some police are scum, but not all of them. Some investors are unstable, but to blackball all sub2 investors is an over kill. For some contributors it seems that the sky has been falling for many years now. 

     For all the bigger pockets fans, ( doing sub2s should be avoided at all cost.) 

    P.S if you should come across a situation where a sub2 would be the best fit for a distressed seller send them to me.

  • South Central Alaska · Member since 2016 · 57 posts · 10 votes
    10y

    @Rick H.

    You folks seem knowledgeable about Wraps, could you perhaps answer my odd question over here?

  • Lender · Greater LA/Orange County area, CA · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    10y

    Be sure to ask the other guys because I'm not  too tightly wrapped today.

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