If you are currently a private lender or have considered it, please weigh in.

If you are currently a private lender or have considered it, please weigh in.

Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes

Here is a question that was posed to me by an old friend recently. He is attempting to do some joint venture or syndication type transactions. In our conversation, I mentioned to him that I am aware of private individuals that loan money to rehabbers, builders, and private lenders on bigger pockets. This thread is for those of you that find yourself in one of those particular categories or have considered it. I have been told that many are loaning in the 8 to 10% range with payments for interest being made at the conclusion of the loan. My question is the following.

If you found yourself in that position or if you have considered that type of loan ,how much more likely would it be for you to make a loan on the following terms or conditions instead.

10% annual interest on a one-year note.

Monthly payments of interest only.

A share of 5% of the profit with a minimum of $500,000 to a maximum pool of $1,000,000 so the 5% would be a minimum of $25,000 up to maximum of $50,000.

The imaginary transaction would be as follows:

Total purchase price is $1,200,000. Property will ALWAYS be free and clear except for lenders Note.

A 33% share is available for $400,000 and may be acquired in its entirety or a percentage at the minimum of $100,000 per share with 4 shares available .

The total return to the investor would be $40,000 in interest and $25,000 minimum in % of profit for a total 1 year minimum return of $65,000 for a 16% total return, and a possible return as high as 22%.

All other terms and conditions are equal on the 2 types of transactions: security, % of money developer has in deal, length of note etc.

On a scale of 1-10, how much likelier would you be to do this transaction?

Disclaimer!!!!! This is not an offering in any way and I'm not the principal. Thanks for your time. Rich

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Will BarnardPro Member
Moderator
Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
13y

Bill gacve some great answers and pointed out some concerns I would have as well. For instance, not allowing additional liens is impossible since mechanics liens can be common place and unpreventable by the lender.
Taking ownership positions opens you up to liability issues.

That stated, I really don't like the 10% rate plus the additional equity profits because they may not be there in the end and all you are left with is 10%. Taking on additional risk without a guaranteed better return does not sit well with me.

I may be more inclined to set the interest rate much higher, keeping in mind it must be done by a licensed mortgage broker to avoid the UT usury max of 10%.

Or, if I were to take an equity position, it would have to be structured with a new entity keeping any of my liability exposure within that entity that holds no other assets. I would want to have inside the structure a planned draw paid directly to the contractors and subs with lien releases from each as it went along, helping to prevent mechanics lien issues.

I also like the two structures that Bill laid out.

See this reply in the discussion

51 Replies

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  • Real Estate Lender · Pt Hueneme, CA · Member since 2012 · 110 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    10....... Where do I sign up?

    Really, this is interesting.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Is the minimum profit guaranteed, meaning you get 5% of the 500,000 even if profit is less? Otherwise I do not see how an investor can say there is a minimum profit. Do you share in the losses if there is a loss?

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    13y

    Also, what is the current value of the property, the after repair value, and remodel costs?

    How is the note and deed of trust shared by all investors? I assume by lender, you mean the actual investors.

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Justin S.:
    Is the minimum profit guaranteed, meaning you get 5% of the 500,000 even if profit is less? Otherwise I do not see how an investor can say there is a minimum profit. Do you share in the losses if there is a loss?

    Those would be my questions as well...

    While I borrow at 10%, I loan at much more than that. And when I loan, I prefer a strictly debt position, as I don't like to have to deal with auditing and arguing over the definition of "profit". Of course, if this is a secured debt position with some profit share, and there truly is a minimum profit of 5% with no risk of loss, that will increase the minimum return to me and I'd model it as a debt position with a higher rate of return and some additional possible upside.

    That would be very appealing.

    On the other hand, if this is an equity position where I potentially share in the loss, I wouldn't be interested as a passive investor.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Thanks for the replies.
    Rick B – remember, this is not an offering of any sort but just a "what if" put forth to me by someone else. My friend does get things done but in the past he has structured more of a partner relationship and feels he is giving away too much of the proceeds. With this method, he believes there are adequate investors or lenders out there that would find this appealing and he would be left with more of the profit than previously.

    Justin S – there is no share of any losses. The 5% or $25,000 cash is the minimum that investors/lender would receive.
    This is not a rehab property that he is currently considering, . But rather development land.
    I'm presenting this just the way he presented it to me and yes the lender/investor is the same person. My guess is the note would be divided as per percentage of the money each put into the transaction.

    J Scott-as I mentioned before, this is not me. You make a good point about not wanting to argue over the definition of profit. I believe the way you stated it as a secured deposition with some profit is exactly what is intended. I have not done one like that and maybe you can elaborate for me how you, as a potential party would like my friend to structure it. His intent is exactly as you stated. Rich

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Justin S – I just realized I didn't answer all of your questions. Without going into too many details at the present time, since this is just a what if at this point, there would be over $1 million put in to the project within anticipated departure point of just under $2 million. Rich

  • Birmingham, AL · Member since 2013 · 10 posts · 0 votes
    13y

    I thought about doing a private Loan for an investor here in town VS actually have the risk of buying and holding real estate.

    I was reading the book "private lending profits" by Carney and it looks like a very attractive venture. If done right, he claims it is risk free...either the loan gets paid off or I take back the property (which is considered a "positive" event for the lender) .

    I'd like to get to know some private money guys so I can learn more about this.

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Rich, I'm not so concerned with your participation since you are a big boy, you have access to a good attorney and you've been there done that, so my thoughts might be geared more toward other readers.

    First was the guarantee that the property can not be encumbered over the note term. Strickly speaking, this can't be done on any development, liens may arise by the operation of law. Secondly, a note and deed of trust on land can only encumber a property to the value or amounts extended by the lender. While an owner may in other agreements agree not to encumber the property such would not operate as an event of default under the security agreement but it would be a breach of that agreement. It's an issue of equity by an owner.

    A syndication or partnership may limit losses between investors by agreement, but to say losses can't happen and that the pricipal might be unable to pay under the agreement is entirely another matter.
    You can have losses and, depending on how it is structured, partners can not only lose money but become liable.

    Next, a lender is a lender, not a partner in equity. Lending money and taking a security interest and then taking an equity position means you are wearing two hats, by acting in matters of the business, like restricting other borrowing, approving plans or specs or other matters can lead to claims of management participation or restricting operations. In the event of default, the cause of the default, in whole or in part, can be placed on you, with liability for damages. It's why banks don't follow this arrangement as they did in the old days.

    To obtain profits, you need to participate in the partnership, active or passively, and loan the money to that entity, not as an outside lender. The entity can places the lien on the property and the partners secured by agreement in that entity.

    IMO, there is no such thing as guaranteed profits. Obviously if your uninsured partner/principal drops dead, profits would be in question, so will the repament of the debts. You can insure against this.

    A partner/principal can be bonded against other risks, non-performance for any reason, like disability, criminal acts, bankruptcy, or just bad management, that may be expensive and not worth the arrangement, so you would have risks.

    IMO, knowing very successful builders and developers, about the only way to guarantee any promise is by pledging assets, other assets to attach in the event things don't work, and at a value sufficient to cover the obligation after the collateral is secured and sold. It sounds like the individual offering this deal may have good intentions, but is probably unable to cover any such guarantees to this extent. If he could, he wouldn't be asking for money.

    Another issue, what kind of development is it and the exit strategy that will happen within 12 months? Where does the take-out come from?

    Another point to a comment as to taking collateral as an upside to a loan by a lender, that is a misconception and has been discussed here, concerning the sale of collateral by a lender. Don't try to learn lending from a guru book.

    Now, the good;

    Rich would probably be in a good position to partner in this since he has development experience and if necessary could step in at any point to completion, even if the developer died and was insured or other events occurred on the down side.

    The numbers offered are fine, the guarantees made with good intentions are fine, just needs fine tuning. Needs structural adjustments. The way to ensure that no other loans would be used is through the agreements/by-laws/operating agreements of the entity in title.

    Other investors could join based on knowing who the other investors were, thier abilities and level of sophistication, might be fine and a good deal. I'd assume the deal would be shared by the % of participation. There are risks.

    Not a bad basic offer conceptually, if it were local to me I'd consider participation if modified, not as a lender taking profits working both sides of the fence though. :)

  • J ScottPro Member
    Moderator
    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    13y

    From a mathematical standpoint, it sounds like they're trying to raise $1M for 1 year, and are offering 10% + a percentage of the profits, with a minimum of $25K.

    That means a minimum return of $125K (10% of $1M + $25K) for the $1M investment, or 12.5%. And then an additional upside, possibly up to $150K (or 15%).

    If the loan is well-secured (low LTV, investor with experience), I think this is a very reasonable offering given today's lending climate. If I had $1M sitting in a retirement account and didn't have anything better to do with it, I'd probably jump at an opportunity like this (unfortunately, I don't :-).

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Bill G – thanks for all your comments Bill. I do appreciate them.

    Knowing what this particular individual is attempting to do, would you feel it was easier to tailor this towards a lender involvement by the person with the funds or by a participation involvement by the person with funds? The developer doesn't care how it is structured as long as the intent of the results are what I have proposed in previous posts.

    The money person would be secured by the property with a very low loan to value percentage. The developer would place funds into the project also.

    The development would be taking a raw parcel of ground and developing it into manufactured lots ready for construction. The estimated time of completion is 6 to 9 months and the manufactured lot price would be approximately 50% of current lot values today. Lots are what are hard to come by currently in our area and contractors would be lined up in the current economy. Yes, I'm fully aware that the economic climate may change but it does normally take a little bit of time. There has been no slowdown in our area and a tremendous reduction of inventory which would make me believe these lots will go up in value prior to completion and then sometime in the future, definitely see a price retraction. The buyer's principal and base profit would be returned in that following 3 to 6 months upon the sale of 20 to 25% of the lots. These would be presold (not closed) during development and closed when plat was recorded.

    That is about all the info I have at this time and again I appreciate your input. I don't really have much more in the way of answers. friend just wanted to know if the proposed split would be enticing. From responses and personal e-mails, it looks like I can tell him yes-on the right terms, details, docs etc. Rich

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    JScott- Thank you again-our posts crossed in innerspace. At the present time, only $400,000 is the amount being raised. The balance is being provided by the developer in cash and work. So, I look at the return on $400,000 as $40,000 in interest and an additional $25,000 minimum and a maximum of potentially $50,000-$75,000 total, all depending on the liquidation price at the end. Rich

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    I did a similar deal on industrial lots. Make a loan and stay out of it.

    Have him agree to sell lots to you if you feel like there is an up side, at a very low price. It's part of the deal but it keeps you out of the partnership issues. I know you hate taxes, but build them into your price, this is not passive.

    Work off the prelim as to lot numbers and legal descriptions for you purchase agreement, saying legal to follow upon plat approval.

    You take title to the lots. You can hold out as the last lots to be built if you like, if prices are rising. If stagnet, sell as you like.

    Your agreement will include a re-purchase agreement where he agrees to buy back the lots at a set price, your guaranteed profit at YOUR option within a set period of time.

    You could also work out a few lots whatever on an option and sell the option, whatever you're more comfortable with and do the same thing after the plat is filed and you are paid off.

    If one lot is too great in value to take it all, take a % tenants in common, 50%, whatever, with that you need an agreement to sell, a set price and how it can be bought out or who has power of sale, not hard.

    Not sure how you were going to treat the profits in the other arrangement as to taxes, You'll have profits here.

    This is just cleaner IMO, no involved partnership/syndication agreements, basically a note and deed of trust a sale agreement and a re-purchase agreement. You're at arm's length and not involved yet still have control. If other investors are involved, share the note and agree to the division of funds received. Good luck :)

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    I HATE TAXES but building them into price will make it more palatable. No complaints, but with the economy booming, my income side is outproducing my write-off side. I know-no sympathy expected! I'll be paying some taxes for the second year in a row! Again, no sympathy expected. My friend could use this method with me or with additional investors also. I haven't decided to get in but probably will. It is getting more difficult to find lots and I only have 2 left. Thanks again.Rich

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Paying taxes means you're making money which beats the alternative, so, you're right, no sympathy... LOL

    If you need to joing other investors they may have a preferrence, but I would not take a profit and be a lender. Just make it as clean a simple as you can, the KISS method usually workds well. :)

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Bill G- You're very experienced in this lending stuff etc. Here is my question after your last post. You, as an investor/lender, would you rather:
    1. Take the deal I'm proposing with possibly more than strictly interest.
    2. Take a deal with straight 16% interest and no possibility for more.

    Which one is more enticing? Others feel free to enter in also, especially those that have already posted like JScott and Justin S. Thanks. Rich

  • Real Estate Lender · Pt Hueneme, CA · Member since 2012 · 110 posts · 47 votes
    13y

    This is exactly why I love biggerpockets.com, you have smart experienced guys coming up with creative ideas like Rich, you have smart experienced guys examining those creative ideas with a fine tooth comb and laying out the facts, like Bill, and you have smart experienced guys giving a well reasoned opinion like J.Scott and others here.

    Kudos to all, really appreciate all of you.

    Every investment has risk, it's how you manage risk and your own tolerance level for risk that matter to YOU! In my case I had to much invested in the stock market, while I have done well most years I feel the risk has grown to high, there are too many wizards behind the drape pulling strings and I do not like being "played" .

    We all have our reasons for being involved in real estate, to me it's just that, REAL! And I like the returns, I like the idea of sharing in the profit too, now to combine those two ......

    I hope I keep seeing more creative brainstorming what if ideas being shared here.

    Just my .02
    Rick

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Rich, let's say all things being equal as to risks, and based on your comments as to the local market, I'd take door number one, but again not set up in that manner as taking equity and lending.

    In fact, if the market was as you described, I'd try for the whole pie!
    My offer would be that I'd leverage the deal with interest to a simple partnership (myself and that principal) having the entity paying the loan and take the same % as a partner. Don't take other investors on, I'd say between you and the bank, you could pull that off.

    If others must be involved, I might be a little more gun shy unless I had dealt with all parties in a prior life.

    Did I miss how many lots there were and the price?

    And, if the market is so hot, why not do some pre-sold deals?

    Another way too, is you and he set up a company and line up funding, get the property under contract, then sell the company for the equity amounts you want, make a loan with the entity sale price included as a balloon payment, I doubt I'd do a note over 10/12% building in the difference in the sale price. Another clean way

    Rick, thanks for the compliments, lots of ways to skin a deal...LOL

  • Real Estate Investor · Audubon, PA · Member since 2009 · 13k+ posts · 8k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Rich Weese:
    ... the manufactured lot price would be approximately 50% of current lot values today. ...

    Rich Weese - could you clarify the sentence in the quoted excerpt? Specifically, the word "price" means a selling point to the buyer - that gives the buyer a great deal. But I was wondering if you really intended to say "costs" there, and so there would be a mark-up above that to the next buyer.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    Bill gacve some great answers and pointed out some concerns I would have as well. For instance, not allowing additional liens is impossible since mechanics liens can be common place and unpreventable by the lender.
    Taking ownership positions opens you up to liability issues.

    That stated, I really don't like the 10% rate plus the additional equity profits because they may not be there in the end and all you are left with is 10%. Taking on additional risk without a guaranteed better return does not sit well with me.

    I may be more inclined to set the interest rate much higher, keeping in mind it must be done by a licensed mortgage broker to avoid the UT usury max of 10%.

    Or, if I were to take an equity position, it would have to be structured with a new entity keeping any of my liability exposure within that entity that holds no other assets. I would want to have inside the structure a planned draw paid directly to the contractors and subs with lien releases from each as it went along, helping to prevent mechanics lien issues.

    I also like the two structures that Bill laid out.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Bill G-This particular parcel would be 38-42 lots. I'm sure presold lots would be possible but with current economy booming, presold prices would be leaving money on the table.

    Steve- I should've said the manufactured lot COST .

    Will- As it currently is being proposed, there would be no mechanics liens possible. The other partner involved in the development would be the company that would be doing ALL the work on the actual manufacture of the lots from the parcel acquired so i don't see additional mechanic liens. All bills would be paid by the other partner, not the company doing the work. I appreciate your comment about not wanting just a potential return of 10% and it is not intended to ever be just a 10% return, however, i have seen other posts and e-mails that were happy with that return.

    I'm not sure, but when I lived here previously, there were NO usury laws on business loans. I know that because I did short term loans at FIVE to TEN % per MONTH!

    I don't think there would be any problems with the suggestions in your last paragraph.
    Rich

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y

    I see, that does help, but would this other partner doing the work not ever hire even one subcontractor? Any sub can also file a lien.
    As for usury in UT on business loans, you would have to look that up, but it can be avoided by using the broker anyways.

    As for the 10%, you are correct, many are happy with 10%, I borrow at 10%, however, us active investors look for better returns and your deal of 10% plus a profit split could end up only being 10% IF there were no profit to split. Keep in mind this is all hypothetical and your LTV in this case looks to be so low, I dont see that heppening, just pointing out the potential downsides for you as I see them.

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Will- It is my understanding that ALL the work is done "in house" but it is something to consider. Most of the folks replying to this hypothetical have agreed that the LTV is SO low, there'll be profit at the end. Rich

  • Investor, Entrepreneur, Educator · Springfield, MO · Member since 2009 · 21k+ posts · 12k+ votes
    13y

    Yes, pre-sold is leaving money on the table or it could be a finance cost for him, I'd say he has that option, not necessarily the best for you...agreed.

    So, which way are you leaning?

  • Real Estate Investor · the villages, FL · Member since 2008 · 5k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    13y

    Bill G-
    I don't know if I'm leaning any direction. I think I should get involved in some fashion with how things are going here.Rich

  • Will BarnardPro Member
    Moderator
    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    13y
    Originally posted by Rich Weese:
    Most of the folks replying to this hypothetical have agreed that the LTV is SO low, there'll be profit at the end. Rich
    i agree regarding the LTV, however, wouldn't you agree that LTV has little to do with profit? Profit is derived from sold price minus expenses, so if the development costs inflate and or the sold price reduced, you eat into profits and that is not affected by the LTV. However, the LTV being so low certainly protects your principle.

    Judging from the numbers on your last reported spec build, if that process is followed here, there should be plenty of profits and I like Bill's last structure idea, seems to deliver you good returns along with security for profits in the lots you hold back so that if the builder screws up, you still hold lots you could rock and roll for the additional profits beyond your 10%.

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