Where are all the aggressive accountants?

CFO LLC

5 Reply

Nicholas Coulter

Real Estate Agent · Southern California · Member since 2019 · 681 posts · 281 votes

3y

@John Gillick more than willing to share my accountants info with you. Remote but very well versed in the abilities to save as an investor

Steve Vaughan

Rental Property Investor · East Wenatchee, WA · Member since 2014 · 10k+ posts · 16k+ votes

3y

Hopefully nowhere.
All this will do is take that wonderful passive income and turn it into ordinary earned income, subject to self employment taxes.
Keep it simple.

3 Reply

Carlos Ptriawan

Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

3y

Quote from @John Gillick:

I have had a lot of accountants, some good, some bad, but none of them will do anything but paperwork.

I'm ready for an aggressive accountant.

Where are the accountants that are going to tell me how to write off vacation expenses by buying a condo in the same city I like to vacation?

Where are the accountants that are going to recommend I employ my children so they can have 401(k)s and I can expense their salaries and they can contribute pre-tax?

Where are the accountants that are going to tell me how to stop managing my own rentals, and instead form an LLC so I can pay myself to manage them while writing off other LLC expenses like my computer?

I'm not saying I need to be all the way through the gray area into the black, but I'm tired of hanging out in the white area. Let's wade into that gray area. Keep it legal, keep it aggressive.

an accountant that uses corvee software

Michael PlaksPro Member

Tax Accountant / Enrolled Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2014 · 5k+ posts · 6k+ votes

3y

I hope this was sarcasm. Corvee is snake oil. Helps mediocre accountants hype up their services with glossy graphs showing huge "savings."

Carlos Ptriawan

Member since 2019 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Michael Plaks:

I hope this was sarcasm. Corvee is snake oil. Helps mediocre accountants hype up their services with glossy graphs showing huge "savings."

hahahaha , i was approached by 'aggressive accountant' that end up putting my number into corvee, and end of the season they said you have to do this a , b , c d and e ; for something that i already know. exactly like the original question above.

i still enjoyed being scammed by corvee marketers though.

Bud Gaffney

Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes

3y

@John Gillick CPA is what you’re looking for.

Account Closed

Rental Property Investor · Brooke Park Drive · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

3y

Hire Tom Wheelwright $$

4 Reply

Eliott Elias

Investor · Austin, TX · Member since 2021 · 9k+ posts · 5k+ votes

3y

I've found most accountants won't do that leg work for you. You have to propose ideas and they will give you their input.

Mike Dymski

Investor · Greenville, SC · Member since 2016 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes

3y

Quote from @Simon W.:

LOL. Aggressive?

One of my client did just that and got himself an aggressive CPA from BP. He is being audited by the IRS. Took me 10 minutes to see why he was flagged.

Sorry but no such thing as aggressive.

It just means let's code things incorrectly and hope you don't get caught.

That's not what he is targeting...he just wants an accountant that knows the the nuances of the rules to best structure his business and prepare tax filings. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for taxpayers (or the next accountant) to find mistakes by their tax preparers.

Simon W.Business Member

Real Estate Consultant · Lehigh Valley PA & New York City · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 664 votes

3y

Quote from @Mike Dymski:

Quote from @Simon W.:

LOL. Aggressive?

One of my client did just that and got himself an aggressive CPA from BP. He is being audited by the IRS. Took me 10 minutes to see why he was flagged.

Sorry but no such thing as aggressive.

It just means let's code things incorrectly and hope you don't get caught.

That's not what he is targeting...he just wants an accountant that knows the the nuances of the rules to best structure his business and prepare tax filings. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for taxpayers (or the next accountant) to find mistakes by their tax preparers.

Yes agreed that it is common to find mistakes, but not mistakes that trigger audits. The problem was that he outsourced a bookkeeper and a CPA. Both didn't catch the other mistakes because "aggressive" was part of the equation. Sometimes it doesn't hurt to have a 3rd party financial advisor/accountant to review it.

I understand what the OP's target was, but I keep hearing "I want an aggressive accountant". This is interpret into save me money and I am willing to take the risk to not get caught.

There is no such thing as aggressive.

There are three types:

1. do bare-minimum

2. analyze the financial to maximize the savings

3. then there are the ones that will do your taxes like they do for mafia's taxes. lol

Accounting Properties LLC

CFO LLC

4 Reply

Greg O'BrienBusiness Member

Accountant · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 386 posts · 336 votes

3y

@Eliott Elias if you want a tax strategist you need to search for them up front, as they are out there.

Some CPAs file taxes, some cater to ultra HNW tax strategy, some audit fortune 500, some perform government audits etc. Its a broad designation with hundreds of sub niches.

One great question would be asking the ratio of Staff to Clients.

If a staff is handling 20 vs 200 clients, you may get a better idea about the level of proactive advice you’ll receive…

5 Reply

Robert Rosenberg

Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 1 vote

3y

Quote from @Seidy Lasker:

@John Gillick

With the last one, you’d be transferring passive income into self employment income with higher taxes.

Robert Rosenberg

Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 1 vote

3y

Quote from @Robert Rosenberg:

Quote from @Seidy Lasker:

@John Gillick

With the last one, you’d be transferring passive income into self employment income with higher taxes.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Allan Smith:

Accountant counts beans. Codes transactions. Reconciles.

you need a cpa for tax strategy. Higher pay grade.

Oh, sorry. Yeah, all my accountants have been CPAs.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Michael Plaks:

Here is the right sequence of prioritizing:

1. Lifestyle considerations

2. Business considerations

3. Tax considerations

Never put #3 as #1.

Anyone who thinks 3 is a separate, lower priority to 2, instead of an integral subset of 2 is not the accountant/advisor for me. Tax considerations are no less important for ROI than property tax and vacancy rates. Your own analogy proves my point: I know I have never bought a cake with no icing on it, and I do not think I have even seen a plain cake being sold in the grocery store or bakery.

"creating an LLC does not create any additional tax deductions for you."

Well, while not literally true, your point is understood, and yes, an LLC does not convert any non-deductions into deductions, but I put enough detail in my example that one could easily understand how it would in fact create a deduction-based tax benefit.

"Buying a condo out of town for tax purposes is not a tax strategy, it's foolishness. Buy it if owning a condo in that place is a solid investment AND you don't have better investment opportunities in your home town or elsewhere. Tax benefits are the icing on the cake, not the cake. And there're complex rules if you're planning to use that condo yourself periodically."

I would say ignoring or even deprioritizing a major portion of ROI is foolishness, but everyone is allowed their opinion.

"You employ your children if they can be helpful in your business AND you want to raise them as productive members of the society."

Thanks for the parenting advice, but if you read the question carefully you'll see I was looking for tax advice. Wrong thread, wrong topic, wrong forum actually.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Seidy Lasker:

@John Gillick

With the last one, you’d be transferring passive income into self employment income with higher taxes.

That's true for all but the "high taxes" part. There are special rules for employing your children. 0% tax for their standard deduction, %0 for pre-tax exclusions (e.g., 401(k)), no FICA, etc.**

**As with all tax issues, there are complicated rules that are very situationally and fact specific, but these rules exist if done correctly.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Steve Vaughan:

Hopefully nowhere.
All this will do is take that wonderful passive income and turn it into ordinary earned income, subject to self employment taxes.
Keep it simple.

Not quite. It takes an avoided passive expense (avoid property manager), creates a passive expense (property manager) and simultaneously creates an active income (self-manager LLC). That active income will be offset by the active expense (e.g., computer) of the LLC that would otherwise be a passive expense against the passive income of the property. To the extent FICA or SECA is involved, I'm already over the cap via w2 work so the bulk of it is not relevant and with careful planning, there should not be much actual net income.

Now the computer is an active expense, not a passive expense, and can be written off against substantial w2 money. One must now also account for hobby-classification rules and some other rules, but again, a significant net benefit can be created in particular situations with particular rules.

I largely agree with you though: Keep it simple! I've done that for 20 years. It worked very well. However, given my current tax burden and particular life situation, there is enough benefit to complicating things to justify the cost and time burden.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Mike Dymski:

Quote from @Simon W.:

LOL. Aggressive?

One of my client did just that and got himself an aggressive CPA from BP. He is being audited by the IRS. Took me 10 minutes to see why he was flagged.

Sorry but no such thing as aggressive.

It just means let's code things incorrectly and hope you don't get caught.

That's not what he is targeting...he just wants an accountant that knows the the nuances of the rules to best structure his business and prepare tax filings. Unfortunately, it's pretty common for taxpayers (or the next accountant) to find mistakes by their tax preparers.

Thank you. Knowing that someone was able to read my question and understand what I was looking for is appreciated.

(Though I anticipated many defensive comments from people who cannot accept the reality that there are nuance layers of tax law).

Robert Rosenberg

Member since 2023 · 4 posts · 1 vote

3y

You NEED a Copyright ©️ Trust as under the IRC regulations Passive Income is Not Taxed, No Capital Gains Tax plus many more benefits. You need a (knowledgeable) Lawyer/CPA with a LLM in Taxation. The rules are in the IRC since 1913 that is 110 years ago. Our Copyright ©️ Trust established by Harvard Law Professor of Taxation & Trusts.

OP

Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2016 · 35 posts · 21 votes

3y

Quote from @Simon W.:

I understand what the OP's target was, but I keep hearing "I want an aggressive accountant". This is interpret into save me money and I am willing to take the risk to not get caught.

There is no such thing as aggressive.

There are three types:

1. do bare-minimum

2. analyze the financial to maximize the savings

3. then there are the ones that will do your taxes like they do for mafia's taxes. lol

It's ok to have differing opinions and interpretations of a word "aggressive" as applied to a context "accountant," but what part of "Keep it legal, keep it aggressive" makes you think "save me money and I am willing to take the risk to not get caught"? (Presuming "get caught" means "get caught" breaking the law).
If it's just "get caught aggressively going after legal tax breaks," then ok, yeah, happy to get caught.

We may have a difference of opinion on whether there is a 2.1 or not. If you think there is a bright line legal/illegal line for every relevant tax rule out there then we will agree to disagree. It is my opinion and experience that there are many rules that create large areas of varying shades of gray depending on how they are applied to specific situations.