The Retirement Secret

The Retirement Secret

Will BarnardPro Member
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Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes

OK, its no secret, just a catchy title for attention! Nationwide Property Investments has educated many on ths topic in live workshops and seminars around the country. I hope this thread clarifies and makes for an easier understanding on this subject, your votes are welcomed and encouraged, lets see if we can get 20!

This thread topic is an off-shoot from Rich Weese's thread about wealth creation. Several people have asked me about self directed IRAs, how they work, how to set them up, and the do's and dont's so I thought a post on the subject was in order as to not hijack Rich's thread.

There are currently over 45 million IRA holders in the US and steadily climbing, but less than 4% of them are self-directed. Eight billion dollars are withheld each WEEK by employees IRA/401k's!

Basically, a self directed IRA enables you to choose the investment type and the only investments you may not invest in with your IRA are insurance policies and collectibles (although some government issued gold bullion, etc are now approved).

In 1974 ERISA (Employee Retirement Income Security Act) stated that you may invest your retirement funds in any vehicle you choose with the exclusion of teh two forementioned. You may refer to IRS publication 590, pages 40 & 41 as well as Section 408 of the IRS code.

You must keep in ind that an IRA, self directed or not, is a "seperate entity" from you. Looking at it in this way will keep you safe and within the regulations of the IRS (especially as a SDI is concerned.

Second, there are three major categories of rules in regards to an SDI. 1. Disqualified parties 2. Prohibited transactions and 3. Unrelated business taxable income/unrelated debt financing income

Let start with disqualified parties.
Your SDI may not involve or benefit any disqualified person. These people include (but not limited to) you as the owner, your spouse, ancestors (grandparents/parents), lineal descendents (daughters/sons & grandchildren), investment advisors, fiuciaries (those providing services to the plan), or any business entity in which any of the disqualified persons mentioned above have a 50% or greater interest.

Prohibited transactions:
Selling, exchanging, or leasing any property between a plan (SDI) and a disqualified party. In other words, you can not purchase property with your IRA you currently own or any other disqualified party owns.
Lending money or other extension of credit between a plan and a disqualified person. Example - you may not personally guarantee a loan for real estate purchased by your IRA and you can not loan money from your IRA to your children or any other disqualified party.
Furnishing goods, services, or facilities between a plan and a disqualified party. - You can not use persoanl furniture to furnish your IRA's rental property.
Transferring or using, by or for the benefit of, a disqualified person the income or assets of a plan.
Example - your IRA cannot purchase a vacation property you or your family intends to use.
Dealing with income or assets of a plan by a disqualified person who is a fiduciary acting on his/her own interest or for his/her own account. Example- you can not loan money to your accountant or third party administrator.
Receiving any consideration for a personal account by a disqualified party who is a fiduciary from any party dealing with the plan in connection with a transaction involving the income or assets of the plan. In other words, you can not pay yourself income from profits generated from your IRA's rental property and you can not pay yourself a property management fee from the IRA.

UBTI/UDFI: This third category is most confusing and you should consult with a very (and I mean very) experienced accountant or tax attorney familiar with SDI's and the taxations involved.
In a nut shell, this tax was formed to level the playing field between IRA owners and the general business public. For example, if I as an SDI owner, opened up a coffee shop next to Starbucks, I could provide the same qulaity of product and service at a lower cost because I would be tax exempt. That would not be fair and thus, whenever your IRA participates in an active business activity such as the example, your IRA is subject to taxation. In addition, if you utilize debt leverage (financing) to purchase a property, you could be subject to taxation from teh profits inside the IRA. There is a way around this by simply paying off the debt with the IRA funds 365 days before you liquidate and thus, no taxes are due.
Another example - flipping properties is a business that competes with others and thus may be subject to UBTI. This may or may not be a bad thing and again, a discussion with your tax attorney on the tax implications are in order!

Here is a short list of IRS approved investments:
Rental property, flipping real estate, pre-foreclosures, forecloisures, REO's, mortagages, loans, businesses, limited partnerships, franchises, notes, raw land (must be all cash, no debt financing is allowed on raw land), residential real estate, commercial real estate, lease options, LLC's, international real estate, multifamily units, tax liens and deeds, vacation properties (as long as you dont use them), private and public stock, mutual funds, hedge funds, and the list goes on . . . .

You may self-direct traditional IRA's, ROTH, SEP, 401k's, 403b's, HSA's, and more.

All these rules and guidelines (which can be complicated, but hopefully simplified for you here) were created by the IRS to ensure that the investment activity EXCLUSIVELY benefit the IRA and not any disqualified party. IF you participate in any prohibited transaction or involve any disqualified party, the IRS can and will immediately make you take full distribution of the IRA, pay the income taxes on the entire IRA value and additionally tack on a 10% early withdrawal fee. In essence, you lose half of your IRA or more. Example, if you had an IRA worth 1 million dollars and made a loan to yoru son for $20 from the IRA, the IRS would not just distribute the $20, but the entire $1 million and you would be subject to the penalties.

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Investor · Spokane, WA · Member since 2009 · 76 posts · 16 votes
17y

Hi Will,

thanks for such a thorough overview. I have been discussing using an IRA with my son. He had looked into it for traditional real estate buy and hold investing--he has mid six figures in an IRA he inherited--This should be enough for him to go discuss the concept further with a good RE tax Attorney/CPA friend.

can you run through a scenario with either rehabbing or buy and hold using a self directed IRA?

I assume that there are a lot of folks who may have a self directed IRA with signfiicant funds that might be good lenders for our projects where they good earn a great secured rate of return etc.

I assume the pooling of several IRA funds would lead to some type of security registration requirement, so hopefully there would be folks with large IRA's as they convert out of their 401k's etc----ie. $1-5 Millon etc. that might see the benefit of putting 10-20% of their money to work in property mortgages on good lower LTV, cash flowing properties.

any real life examples discussing costs of borrowing, terms etc. would be great.

thanks

Jeffrey

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  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Anyone else have any questions in regards to self directed IRA's?

    Bring em' on! :lol:

    Also, don't forget to check out Rich Weese's follow up threads on retirement secrets.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    I'm getting good at this, no more questions, I must have answered them all!

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    17y

    Tom LaRocque of the Denver Post wrote a good article last week on SDIRA's used for REI in the way you suggest,Will.

    http://www.biggerpockets.com/links/recent

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Thanks for the article link Jon, I missed that on the bulletins. Vote from me.

    Accessing SDIRA funds of others is a great way to locate and utilize private funds for your RE investments.

    Word of caution: Depending on each state you reside in or do business in, make sure to check your usury laws as each state regulates maximum annualized interest rates that can be charged by non-licensed investors.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Loans made for business purposes only are exempt from usury laws but must be made to a business entity or trus and not an individual.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y

    Will -

    Have you looked into Guidant Financial's Small Business 401k product?

    Basically, it's a way to take your own retirement funds and use it to fund your own operating business. You can have an active role in the businesses' management (in fact, you have to), and you can take a salary from the business as well.

    It's an alternative to a typical SDI that has some amazing benefits for full time real estate investors...

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Certainly J. That is an option for SDI owners, however, that is a different subject than just making loans.

    On your note, it is a way where you can actually personally benefit from your IRA and stay within the IRS rules and guidelines by creating a JOB for yourself. Keep in mind that the business is still required to pay taxes just as any other business does and one should consult a RE attorney who is very, very familiar with this process before jumping in. It is not as simple or easy as it sounds and you could lose your retirement savings (your IRA) if your business fails.
    I personally think that it is a very "risky" (for lack of a better term) proposition to use IRA funds to start a business, but many have done it successfully.

    Thanks for the comment J and your insight into that IRA option.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Another thought:
    When choosing your TPA (third partty administrator) you should consider three things: 1. What type of investments will you be making, 2. Costs, and 3. quality of that TPA.

    1. This is important because if you are going to be investing in time sensitive investments such as tax lien certificates or buying properties at auction, you need to have the ability to have the cash or write the check right then and there. With traditional TPA's thet take processing time. Therefore you need to set up a SDIRA with checkbook control.

    2. Costs should always be considered in any investment. Make sure the TPA has low all-inclusive fees that are affordable for your IRA's budget.

    3. Using a TPA that has been in business for many years, has good service and the ease of availability of forms, contracts, and information is key.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Bump . . .

    Lets keep this conversation going, I feel it is important.
    The follow ups are the retirement secret parts II and III as well as the obstacles to wealth created by Rich Weese.
    They are all must reads for all. :lol:

  • Real Estate Consultant · yucaipa, CA · Member since 2008 · 233 posts · 109 votes
    17y

    If I may, I would like to add to Will's excellent topic and post. In my opinion, which I recommend to my Investor Clients as what I call the ultimate Retirement Plan for Self Employed/ Husband & wife qualify, is the Solo 401K (Roth) Unlike a self directed IRA which requires a third party custodian, you become the custodian. Truely Self Directed. The highlights of the K. plan;
    You can roll money into your 401K from any and all eligible retirement plans.
    You can also roll money out to a different retirement plan such as an IRA
    You have the right to issue yourself and spouse a loan anytime for anything you need as long as you pay it back within five (5) years. Up to $50K ea. or 50% of acct value.
    If you use the loan (s) to buy a different personal residence you have up to thirty (30) years to pay the loan back and the interest is tax deductible to yourself.
    The freedom to invest in whatever you want as long as it is not prohibited under the tax code.
    You have option to make voluntary contributions over and above contributions based upon only profits. which are nearly 10X higher than IRA
    You are exempt from UDFI/UBTI TAX (Solo K plans are exempt)
    Starting 2010-No Income Restrictions for Roth Participation/conversions.
    No custodian required. A Solo K plan, allows you to serve as employee, employer, participant, administrator, and trustee.
    Solo K plan also allows you to retire at age 55 with no extra 10% penalty.

    As with any plan such as this you need to work with a reputable, experienced firm. Preferably one who specializes in the Solo K Plan if that's the direction you wish to go. As a Self Employed person, the Solo K plan is, in my opinion ,far superior to any other self directed plan available today.

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    17y

    Will (or others) -

    Can you recommend a couple companies that we should consider if we wanted to set up an SDI?

    Specifically, I plan to set up an SDI to make both secured and unsecured loans to a couple good friends...which companies should I consider? Who has the best rates?

    Any other info is greatly appreciated!

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Matt,
    Thank you for your post response. It is appreciated and is full of great advice. The solok 401k plan is a great avenue for weath/retirement creation. It has many advantages that an IRA does not. It has the benefits of the standard 401k (loan provisoins, etc) without the hinderence of the standard 401k (not allowed to invest in other options not provided by service provider/TPA)

    Jason,
    I highly recommend Equity Trust Company (www.trustetc.com) - I have no affiliation with them but do use them - as they have all inclusive fees which is important and the fee structure is very fair. They also have a wealth of information on their webiste, more than most, and have a 24 hour customer service department which is second to none in that industry.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    To clarify, what Matt means by this is that you can start making withdrawals at age 55 rather than the standard 59.5 for IRA's. You can retire at any age you desire.
  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    17y

    Matt or Will (or anyone who knows), where can we read more about Solo 401Ks (Roth or traditional) doing REI?

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    Matt or Will (or anyone who knows), where can we read more about Solo 401Ks (Roth or traditional) doing REI?
    Jon, here are some links of articles about the solo K plan:
    http://www.smsmallbiz.com/benefits/The_Solo_401(k).html
    and
    http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/the-perks-of-the-solo-401k-13505/

    Talk to a trusted CPA, tax attorney, or financial advisor familiar with it for more details. You do need to have your own business (but it could be basket weaving, so that is the easy part) :lol:

  • Developer · Garland, TX · Member since 2008 · 8k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    17y
    Originally posted by nationwidepi:
    Originally posted by Jon Klaus:
    Matt or Will (or anyone who knows), where can we read more about Solo 401Ks (Roth or traditional) doing REI?
    Jon, here are some links of articles about the solo K plan:
    http://www.smsmallbiz.com/benefits/The_Solo_401(k).html
    and
    http://www.smartmoney.com/personal-finance/taxes/the-perks-of-the-solo-401k-13505/

    Talk to a trusted CPA, tax attorney, or financial advisor familiar with it for more details. You do need to have your own business (but it could be basket weaving, so that is the easy part) :lol:



    Thanks for these articles Will, and I will talk to my CPA, but not on the weekend. If I have a SIMPLE-IRA in one business, can I still do a solo-401K in my other business?
  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Absolutely Jon.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    In fact, you can have a 401k from a current employer and have your own side business to do your own solo 401k plan.
    That said, you still must stay within the max contribution and emplyoer matching limits which are the combined amounts of both 401k's.
    The annual contribution max of $16,500 would be for the total of both, not $16,500 each plus employer match.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    17y

    Are there any BP members here who have a solo 401k plan or a SEP IRA?
    If so, can you give us yoru feedback on what you like, don't like about each?

    Personal experiences shared here are very beneficial to the readers.

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    16y

    This is a great thread and I'm bumping it.

    I'll would like to know the answer to Will's question as well.

    Are there any BP members here who have a solo 401k plan or a SEP IRA?
    If so, can you give us yoru feedback on what you like, don't like about each?
  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    16y
    Thanks Jon...I had missed that thread...
    I haven't spoken to a tax attorney about this yet (haven't decided if I want to seriously pursue the idea), but I did called Pensco Trust (an SDI custodian) and asked them this question.

    Basically, they said that my transaction was legal and that the other transaction would be legal as well, but they carefully avoided my specific question about the two transactions together.

    Based on the info in the other thread, I'm going to consult my attorney and my accountant before I consider this any further...I'll let you know what they have to say...

    Jscott - Did you get an answer from your lawyer on this?

  • J ScottPro Member
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    Investor · Sarasota, FL · Member since 2008 · 18k+ posts · 17k+ votes
    16y
    Originally posted by Justin S.:

    Jscott - Did you get an answer from your lawyer on this?


    No, I didn't...

    I actually decided to go another direction, and have moved a significant portion of my retirement funds into another vehicle that allows me to actively manage the funds and use it for any (active) investing purposes I want.

    Essentially, I was able to fund a corporation with my retirement funds, and as the major shareholder of the corporation (with my wife), we have full access to the funds to flip, hold rentals, etc.

    For anyone interested, I use a financial vehicle managed by Guidant Financial, called the "Guidant 401k"...there are some things you need to be very careful of when setting up and managing a vehicle like this, but it allows you to fully and actively manage all of your retirement funds and the investments you use them for (which a SDI plan does not).

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    16y

    The Guidant 401k plan is a great vehicle for the savvy investor. I am glad you find a match for your retirment savings Jason.

    Let us know how the progress goes with that.

    Lets keep this thread rolling as Justin suggested. I feel it is one of the most important topics. Without a retirement savings, you don't have a retirement!!!!

  • Residential Real Estate Agent · Chandler, AZ · Member since 2009 · 1k+ posts · 928 votes
    16y

    Unfortunately, this thread does not show up on dashboard since its in the classified section. Perhaps a moderator can move it over since I do not see anyone selling anything on here.

  • Will BarnardPro Member
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    Developer · Santa Clarita, CA · Member since 2008 · 15k+ posts · 10k+ votes
    16y

    Wow Justin, you just opened my eyes!!
    This was never posted origianlly in the classifieds or promote your own website thread as I never promoted or sold anything here, it was strictly information and has remained so.

    I am hoping it was moved by mistake. Lets please inform the mods via PM to get it over to the proper thread so all can see it. It is a very important, and often overlooked topic!!!!!

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