Handyman fell down the roof

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Handyman fell down the roof

Kimnee L.
Member since 2021 · 4 posts · 17 votes

Hi all. I am wondering what my liability is when someone fell down my roof. Recently it was raining hard. Tenant called me, and I asked another tenant who had repaired roofs for me before. He has no license. He then took his neighbor along with him.  The brought the neighbor's ladder to the home with the roof leak.  The neighbor went up the roof then the handyman tenant went up too, but while near the roof, the ladder slid and he fell to the concrete driveway.  He was in and out of consciousness and spit out blood. He is now being incubated.  He has been a good and friendly tenant to me.  The neighbor who went with him said the roof was fine except a small hole near a pipe, and he patched the hole.  My concern is how liable I am for his injury?  

Thank you,

Kim

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Matthew Olszak
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y

I'd change/limit your name on here asap before google catches this page and your statements/admissions.

Call an attorney and have them submit any necessary claim to the insurance company. This may go nowhere, the injured person might feel it was their fault and eat it. But a family/friend bird might chirp in their ear about going after you. Or their health insurance provider might subrogate the claim and go after you and your insurer for what they had to pay. I know when I injured my knee at home, my health insurance provider had me fill out paperwork detailing the circumstances of the injury and certify it was not employment related.

Regardless of the employment situation, someone was injured on your property, so you may be liable to them.

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  • Kyle D Birch
    Rental Property Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2019 · 77 posts · 36 votes
    4y
    I pray for the inured gentlemen and his family.

    I would love to hear some others opinions on this. Is this something that would hold  up in this scenario? Would it work in some states and not others? 



    Originally posted by @Maurice D.:
    This is sad.  Generally speaking and for future reference, wouldn't a contractor waiver of liability shield the owner or those waivers don't work?  they are supposedly designed for uninsured workers?

    https://www.liabilitywaiver.or...


    2Reply
  • Jackie Cramer
    Rental Property Investor · North Jersey Shore · Member since 2020 · 102 posts · 49 votes
    4y

    While a waiver may or may not hold up in any particular state, I beieve that in many places with or without one, in a lawsuit this is one seriouly damaged plaintiff with possibly no or few substantial assets for current ior future medical needs

    But the good newd, FOR THEM is that juries love rich LL'S and the courts that award significant damages for the sake of fairness...aka, equity j

    2Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Hate to scare you, but it look like you may be personally liable and there is a high possibility that your property insurance will not cover this since it sounds like this will be a worker compensation insurance claim and most-likely you do not have worker compensation insurance to cover work-related injuries. You may have an insurance company that will cover this if you get lucky.

    If your tenant slipped down some stairs you would probably be covered, but when you hire someone to repair a roof most states have laws that requires every homeowner, property owner and contractor to make sure and verify that every worker, whether working directly for you, or whether working for a company those employees must be covered by worker compensation insurance.

    The same laws apply to onsite property managers and landlords get hit with multi-million dollars civil lawsuits that are not covered by property insurance for working overtime, injuries, retaliation, harassment, etc. and the costs landlords pay for an attorney are about $80,000 to get to the first mediation attempt to settle, no less than $300,000 to get to a jury trial and the landlord still has to pay for damages awarded. I know because I've had 3 civil lawsuits against my company since 2015 and I follow many lawsuits against landlords. For those reasons, I don't have any onsite managers with the exception for properties that require onsite managers I pay a tenant $100 to $150 per month to keep a set of keys to all the apartments and to know where the water shut-off valve is located.

    I never have someone work at my properties without worker compensation insurance and one way I get around having worker compensation insurance for every property is I hire every worker through my construction company just like a regular employee where they sign my company's written policies and I tax them so they are picked up by my worker compensation policy.

    You have a problem that every landlord should pay special attention to.

    As for worrying, there is nothing you can do and the ball will bounce where it wants to. All the worrying in the world will make no difference for the results. Try to relax, hire an attorney and make sure you immediately abide by some legal obligations you are most-likely not aware of e.g. you may need to file reports with some government agencies and you may be required to provide your tenant with some types of benefits e.g. money, or whatever, but if you fail to provide your tenant with some things you will look like an animal in court and a jury will hit you hard with damages.

    Sorry!  But...I went through similar lawsuits 2 times in less than 5 years, but I learned many lessons and still going strong, today.
       

    4Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @John Underwood:

    I hope your handyman is OK. This is scary for him and for you.

    I hope this asset is in an LLC by itself. Forget having up to a million per LLC. I prefer to have much less assets in each LLC.

    An LLC is 100% senseless to have since they provide no protection. The plaintiff will win an award through the court and the since the defendant owns the LLC the plaintiff will go after the LLC owner's equity in the LLC and then go after the owner of the LLC for personal assets that exceed insurance and what he gets from the LLC.

    3Reply
  • Bud Gaffney
    Rental Property Investor · Boston, MA · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Call a lawyer yesterday. PERIOD.

    2Reply
  • Bob Lee
    Member since 2021 · 8 posts · 1 vote
    4y
    A very good lesson on what unfortunate things can happen.  
    1Reply
  • James Wise
    Real Estate Broker · Cleveland Dayton Cincinnati Toledo Columbus & Akron, OH · Member since 2013 · 30k+ posts · 20k+ votes
    4y

    It all comes down to being a cheap A**. OP was being cheap by having tenants do the job, uninsured. Now he's going to pay the price. Don't be a cheap A** folks. Sooner or later, it's going to bite you big, like we are seeing here.

    8Reply
  • Henry Lazerow
    Real Estate Agent · Chicago, IL · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    Message an admin to delete this whole post ASAP and go talk to an attorney. 

    5Reply
  • Paul Mills
    West Valley City, UT · Member since 2018 · 1 post · 1 vote
    4y

    @Natalie Kolodij

    What specifically can business owners do to keep it from being pierced? I only hear stuff about keeping transactions separate.

    1Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    I hope this post doesn't get deleted....it is valuable information for people who are new to the game. As a matter of fact, there is another thread that just got started by some one asking the question about people working on his property.

    This is the single biggest mistake people can make in Real Estate. People need to learn.....

    3Reply
  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Kimnee Lim. You are responsible for his injury because he was not an independent contractor. He does not have a license, he does not have his own insurance, and I would assume you had no contract or hold harmless agreement in place.

    This man was technically an employee while he went to fix your roof because he did not qualify as a 1099 worker.

    As an employee you are required to carry workers comp insurance for injuries. Since you don’t have workers comp insurance for someone that was acting as an employee workers comp is not going to get sued, you are.

    When you get sued your home owners insurance will get sued. Your insurance will be on the hook but they may try to rope you in as well for using an employee without insurance. Considering the damage to the individual they may try to hold you liable for negligence.

    You need an attorney.

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  • Patricia Steiner
    Real Estate Broker · Hyde Park Tampa, FL · Member since 2019 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    4y

    The second it happened, you needed to call your insurance company.  You will find in policies that failure to report an incident (or even a threat made to sue) can result in termination of your policy.  

    If you're not insured (you'll wish you were), call an attorney now.

    The time to act is before you're forced to...

    5Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Paul Mills:

    @Natalie Kolodij

    What specifically can business owners do to keep it from being pierced? I only hear stuff about keeping transactions separate.

    Not much when you're talking about this kind of thing.....just load up on insurance and don't cut corners like letting unlicensed people work on your property.

    0Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    I feel for you and your situation. Hope the guy heals.

    I am a contractor, luckily pretty afraid of heights. And my family needs me more than I need to repair a roof.

    I would never ever have some rando dude go on a roof for me.

     AGREED more people are hurt  and die from roof falls I think than any other aspect of residential construction.

    and homeowners as well taking headers while cleaning gutters..  I pay to have my gutters cleaned no way I am going up on a roof.

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  • Jim K.
    Handyman · Pittsburgh, PA · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 13k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    I feel for you and your situation. Hope the guy heals.

    I am a contractor, luckily pretty afraid of heights. And my family needs me more than I need to repair a roof.

    I would never ever have some rando dude go on a roof for me.

     AGREED more people are hurt  and die from roof falls I think than any other aspect of residential construction.

    and homeowners as well taking headers while cleaning gutters..  I pay to have my gutters cleaned no way I am going up on a roof.

    Yes, roofing is the most dangerous of the residential construction trades.

    https://www.ishn.com/articles/...

    1Reply
  • Jay HinrichsBusiness Member
    Real Estate Consultant · Summerlin, NV · Member since 2014 · 45k+ posts · 66k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jim K.:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:
    Originally posted by @Matt M.:

    I feel for you and your situation. Hope the guy heals.

    I am a contractor, luckily pretty afraid of heights. And my family needs me more than I need to repair a roof.

    I would never ever have some rando dude go on a roof for me.

     AGREED more people are hurt  and die from roof falls I think than any other aspect of residential construction.

    and homeowners as well taking headers while cleaning gutters..  I pay to have my gutters cleaned no way I am going up on a roof.

    Yes, roofing is the most dangerous of the residential construction trades.

    https://www.ishn.com/articles/...

    I see that Logging is numero uno.. when I had my land and timber company.. we never owned any equipment and always  contract logged we left some money on the table but the workers comp is very high for  these guys  the Fellers  choker setters etc .. And then there is Helicopter logging thats insane.. we did some of that.. these Helicopters come whipping in with a 40 foot log that weights a bunch set it down and the chocker setter has to run over and unhook it from the cable one puff of air and by by hand or diget. 

    the fellers get hit by falling limbs and or tree rolls off the stump wrong and rolls on them.. then you have crushed legs .. my partner had his foot crushed..   ME I stood well back when I was on the landings and logging jobs. 

    I am surprised House Framers are not up there these guys are walking on 2/4s in the rain on 2nd and 3rd stories  pretty wild at least here in Orygun

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  • Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
    Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Kyle D Birch it would not work in NYS because the person performing the work was not by definition a contractor. He was an employee. Any hold harmless agreements, waivers, or other documentation would be worthless.

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  • Alex KhanPro Member
    Specialist · Southeast Michigan · Member since 2015 · 300 posts · 244 votes
    4y


    248-979-8119
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  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    The first thing you need to do is tighten up your lips. File a claim with your insurance company, but don't tell your insurance company any details. Let your attorney do all the talking, or you might make an innocent mistake you regret. I've been involved with many lawsuits and I am always amazed when I tell my attorney something and he tells me how what I said can be used against me.

    It is very difficult to find an attorney who does not overcharge and will actually work on your side. Most attorneys demand unreasonable detainers and even when you pay the highest fees it is often difficult to talk to your own attorney when you want to ask simple questions. I always found that the best attorneys I worked with had 20 to 30 years of experience and they worked in a small office alone and did not work in a firm with other attorneys. Those were the best attorneys I ever had and one was a woman. I could call with questions and both attorney came to the phone almost every time I called and not always because it is obvious they have to go to court and mediation on some days.

    4Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2021 · 240 posts · 300 votes
    4y

    This is a nice hypothetical question. Perhaps edit your title and original post to reflect this hypothetical question being completely hypothetical so people don't get the impression this factually occurred...

    2Reply
  • Barry Ruby
    Developer · Boulder, CO · Member since 2018 · 530 posts · 365 votes
    4y

    @Kimnee L. DO NOT transfer your assets as someone suggested. I am not an attorney but I have been around legal issues for a while.

    Moving assets when you smell smoke or see fire is called fraudulent conveyance. Moving your assets under these conditions is not only against the law. It makes anyone that does it look self serving, which of they would be. It could also work to deepen your problems.

    This is a lesson in risking the farm to save a dime. I truly wish you and the injured party the best of luck.

    1Reply
  • Barry Ruby
    Developer · Boulder, CO · Member since 2018 · 530 posts · 365 votes
    4y

    @Bruce Woodruff don’t commingle funds, tell the truth and don’t do a fraudulent transfer of assets the rest will take care of itself

    0Reply
  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    They are #2 after roofers. In Cali where I worked the roofer had to pay 90% WC for their guys, GC/Framers were at 40%

    0Reply
  • Laura Williams
    Kansas City MO · Member since 2014 · 357 posts · 349 votes
    4y
    I am so sorry you have to go through this stress and I hope your tenant makes a full recovery.
    This could happen to any of us as there could be any number of accidents to take place on a property while people are working and making repairs.

    For the BP community out there who have been through similar lawsuits what is the full lesson to be learned from this? Please let me know if this is the full list or to add on anything

    1) Own properties in an LLC
    2) Have good liability insurance
    3) Only hire licensed and insured people to work on our properties especially roofs or dangerous jobs....
    Question for professional- how far do you take this? Assuming people who mow the lawn or clean or paint or do sheetrock or backsplash or lay carpet or flooring....who needs a license and insurance and who doesn't?? Is it ever safe to hire a solo handyman??
    4) if an accident does happen then contact an attorney first and then let him contact the insurance company in case you accidentally say something wrong that might invalidate your insurance.

    Anything else to add?
    0Reply
  • Account Closed
    Member since 2020 · 983 posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
    Originally posted by @Jay Hinrichs:

    They are #2 after roofers. In Cali where I worked the roofer had to pay 90% WC for their guys, GC/Framers were at 40%

    I've had a roofing license since about 1975 and about 10 years ago deactivated my roofing license because the worker's comp was 40% of the gross payroll. Then add liability insurance, vehicle insurance, advertising and all the overhead and if was difficult to make a profit.

    1Reply
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