Handyman fell down the roof

Member since 2021 · 4 posts · 17 votes

Hi all. I am wondering what my liability is when someone fell down my roof. Recently it was raining hard. Tenant called me, and I asked another tenant who had repaired roofs for me before. He has no license. He then took his neighbor along with him. The brought the neighbor's ladder to the home with the roof leak. The neighbor went up the roof then the handyman tenant went up too, but while near the roof, the ladder slid and he fell to the concrete driveway. He was in and out of consciousness and spit out blood. He is now being incubated. He has been a good and friendly tenant to me. The neighbor who went with him said the roof was fine except a small hole near a pipe, and he patched the hole. My concern is how liable I am for his injury?

Thank you,

Kim

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Matthew Olszak

Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes

I'd change/limit your name on here asap before google catches this page and your statements/admissions.

Call an attorney and have them submit any necessary claim to the insurance company. This may go nowhere, the injured person might feel it was their fault and eat it. But a family/friend bird might chirp in their ear about going after you. Or their health insurance provider might subrogate the claim and go after you and your insurer for what they had to pay. I know when I injured my knee at home, my health insurance provider had me fill out paperwork detailing the circumstances of the injury and certify it was not employment related.

Regardless of the employment situation, someone was injured on your property, so you may be liable to them.

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Daniel SmythPro Member
Rental Property Investor · Rockford, IL · Member since 2019 · 471 posts · 342 votes
4y
@Kimnee L.
Your property should be insured. As far as the tenant being licensed, that doesn't matter at all!
You are 100% liable regardless of if you even asked the tenant to get on the roof.
You are 100% liable if someone at a party or even a neighbor got hurt on your property.
The only saving grace would be if you hired someone and they signed an insurance waiver eliminating you from liability. In that case, you always verify from that other insurance carrier they can and will cover potential liability.
Good luck.
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Laura Williams:
1) Own properties in an LLC
2) Have good liability insurance
3) Only hire licensed and insured people to work on our properties especially roofs or dangerous jobs....
Question for professional- how far do you take this? Assuming people who mow the lawn or clean or paint or do sheetrock or backsplash or lay carpet or flooring....who needs a license and insurance and who doesn't?? Is it ever safe to hire a solo handyman??
4) if an accident does happen then contact an attorney first and then let him contact the insurance company in case you accidentally say something wrong that might invalidate your insurance.

1) Doesn't really matter - the corporate veil is easily pierced
2) Have great liability Insurance
3) Hire Licensed/Insured/Workers-Comp companies no matter what they are doing! Ever seen a gardener get sliced by a blade? A painter have his compressor blow up in his face so his eyeballs are hanging out? A basic laborer cut his finger off? Solo Handymen are fine as long as you verify that they have adequate Liability Insurance. Self-employed workers and their immediate family are not required to have Worker's Comp.
I would advise going with the licensed companies even if your state does not require a license for say, flooring. It shows that they are professional and will usually have their ducks in a row.
4) Call both immediately. Attorney first.

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Joe SplitrockPro Member
Moderator
Rental Property Investor · Sioux Falls, SD · Member since 2015 · 9k+ posts · 18k+ votes
4y
A stranger can sue you for slipping on ice, even if uninvited on to your property. I assure you that someone you invited on to your property can definitely sue if they were injured on your property. I will pretty much guarantee that your insurance will cover the medical bills at a minimum. If they get an attorney, they could sue for more damages. You chose to hire an unlicensed and uninsured individual to do work on your property. These injuries will result in a huge medical bill. It could result in death or life long disability. If they are unable to work, they can sue you for lifetime loss of income.
First of all, keep your mouth shut. I would call your insurance company rather than an attorney. They will tell you how to handle the situation and they will likely defend you (to defend themselves).
Double check with your insurance company, but I am pretty sure you need to disclose the name of your insurance company to the injured person if they ask. It may even be the right thing to just do it proactively.
This is why you only hired insured and licensed people to do work.
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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Account Closed:

I've had a roofing license since about 1975 and about 10 years ago deactivated my roofing license because the worker's comp was 40% of the gross payroll. Then add liability insurance, vehicle insurance, advertising and all the overhead and if was difficult to make a profit.

I feel ya. My WC was 40% for anyone I hired as a GC. Even the kids that did clean-up and swept floors. Everyone. Because the 'powers that be' decided they could all be running a SkilSaw. So to pay someone $20 hr meant I was actually paying them $28 hr. And like you say, add on the labor overhead and it was $40 hr for a mid level carpenter. Plus all the basic business overhead.....
People who have never run a construction business have no clue. And they accuse us of being over-priced....

1 Reply
Max T.
Investor · Philadelphia, PA · Member since 2015 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
4y
@Bruce Woodruff considering how much time you spend on the forums, I can confidently say you are overpriced! How much is the social media overhead 😂?
1 Reply
Matthew Irish-JonesBusiness Member
Real Estate Agent · Buffalo, NY · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
@Laura Williams
You take it all the way or you could be in the same situation as the OP.
When you boil it down it’s pretty simple. You can hire a corporation or an independent contractor to do work. If it’s a corporation you don’t need anything besides a contract although verifying they are a corporation is a good idea.
If you are dealing with an independent contractor you have to have the following to protect yourself (our company policy)
1. W-9
2. Copy of license
3. Copy of liability insurance
4. Copy of work man’s comp insurance
Otherwise: they are an employee and you need to put them on payroll and provide workers comp insurance.
As far as how far do we as a company take it, and me personally as an investor… no body sets foot on my property or any property we manage without the above. No exceptions ever for any reason.
Saving $50 bucks with a “cheap” handyman or saving $2500 on a renovation to do business with a highly trusted but NOT insured handyman is investors Russian roulette.
If it goes wrong and you lose you can lose everything. It’s just not worth it. When people complain about our price on the renovation side and we are competing with uncle Bill who has a van and a friend with no front teeth that can do the work, I try to explain the risk they are taking on for a 10% savings. Some understand and listen some roll the dice.
It can work and you can save money but it disaster strikes and someone falls off a roof or chops a finger off, or falls down the stairs working on your property…. You can lose hundreds of thousands of dollars or more trying to save a couple thousand.
Most investors are good at quantifying risk on a purchase then get uncle Bill in to do a Renovation or hire high school kids to do the demo… it’s bad business, and the risks don’t justify the rewards.
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Gregory Carroll
Member since 2020 · 14 posts · 12 votes
4y
There is no workers comp between owners and tenants. I was in charge of workers comp (WC) for a 5000 + person organization. WC and insurance is between a company and it's employees. Hiring a licenced and insured company is the only way to push the liability to the company we hire where it belongs. It also allows for OSHA to step in if there are serious injuries or death to make sure that company and it's staff are operating in the safest manner possible.
0 Reply
Kevin C.
Real Estate Broker · Anchorage, AK · Member since 2012 · 89 posts · 77 votes
4y
This is what happens when you cut corners. I hope your tenant gets adequate care. Lawyer up.
0 Reply
Michael K.
Investor · Chicago, IL · Member since 2018 · 352 posts · 176 votes
4y
@Kimnee L.
Although I have never had this kind of thing happen to me I suggest you get out in front of the problem. If you accidentally hit someone with your car you want to be the one driving them to the hospital, not the one running from the crime scene. I think the same applies to this situation. Reach out to your insurance agent and see what/how much this gentleman might be entitled to within the limits of your policy. His family might be still be looking at this as a freak accident and not out for blood. Demonstrate to his family that you are actively working to help him. Get in touch with a lawyer (of course) but start off the conversation with some compassion and bring in the human element. Hiring lawyers might lead to an arms race and things could quickly get out of hand.
1 Reply
Allen L.
Rental Property Investor · Chicago and mainly invests in KS remotely · Member since 2018 · 360 posts · 314 votes
4y
Originally posted by @Bruce Woodruff:
Originally posted by @Laura Williams:
1) Own properties in an LLC
2) Have good liability insurance
3) Only hire licensed and insured people to work on our properties especially roofs or dangerous jobs....
Question for professional- how far do you take this? Assuming people who mow the lawn or clean or paint or do sheetrock or backsplash or lay carpet or flooring....who needs a license and insurance and who doesn't?? Is it ever safe to hire a solo handyman??
4) if an accident does happen then contact an attorney first and then let him contact the insurance company in case you accidentally say something wrong that might invalidate your insurance.

1) Doesn't really matter - the corporate veil is easily pierced
2) Have great liability Insurance
3) Hire Licensed/Insured/Workers-Comp companies no matter what they are doing! Ever seen a gardener get sliced by a blade? A painter have his compressor blow up in his face so his eyeballs are hanging out? A basic laborer cut his finger off? Solo Handymen are fine as long as you verify that they have adequate Liability Insurance. Self-employed workers and their immediate family are not required to have Worker's Comp.
I would advise going with the licensed companies even if your state does not require a license for say, flooring. It shows that they are professional and will usually have their ducks in a row.
4) Call both immediately. Attorney first.

Bruce, you mentioned self employed do not need workers comp. So what if that person gets injured on the job, who’s paying for his medical?

0 Reply
Account Closed
Member since 2020 · 984 posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Gregory Carroll:
There is no workers comp between owners and tenants. I was in charge of workers comp (WC) for a 5000 + person organization. WC and insurance is between a company and it's employees. Hiring a licenced and insured company is the only way to push the liability to the company we hire where it belongs. It also allows for OSHA to step in if there are serious injuries or death to make sure that company and it's staff are operating in the safest manner possible.

Workers comp is required for a tenant for two reason in this case; 1) because the OP said the tenant worked for him (or her) several times and 1) because the OP asked the tenant to help, or knew the tenant was going onto the roof.
I definitely don't have a halo glowing around my head because I definitely fudged many times in my life and went with the fast and cheap contractors and I was ignorant in regards to all the horrible things that could happen. I even owned my company for several years in the beginning with no auto insurance and no liability insurance. Not every person is knowledgeable about how safety issues we take for granted can destroy both our lives and the people who get injured.
One thing I say almost every day is I never look back and regret any mistake I every made because we humans (most of us) try to do the best we could when we made those decisions.
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Barney Davis
Rental Property Investor · Jackson, MS · Member since 2019 · 33 posts · 9 votes
4y
@Bruce Woodruff say it again! I’m in the plumbing business and people think all we have in a job is labor and materials. That’s just a fraction of what it costs to operate! It’s expensive running a legit business
3 Reply
Benjamin Mcintosh
Investor · St. Louis, MO · Member since 2021 · 12 posts · 2 votes
4y
@Matthew Olszak THIS
Anything you say can be used in litigation. The rule against hearsay doesn’t apply to your statements as a party to litigation.
And if you think this whole thread is totally irrelevant. And never coming into evidence… good luck with that. This whole thread reflects on credibility and intentions.
2 Reply
Mary M.
Rental Property Investor · Portland OR · Member since 2018 · 2k+ posts · 3k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Allen L.:

Bruce, you mentioned self employed do not need workers comp. So what if that person gets injured on the job, who’s paying for his medical?

Check your state laws. In Oregon a self employed contractor or self employed licensed individual whom you hire with a contract, will self insure themselves. They basically have health insurance that will cover their injury if one happens. This is true for all self employed people.... but for this discussion you need to be sure anyone working on your property is licensed as per state laws.

1 Reply
Matthew Olszak
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Barney Davis:
@Bruce Woodruff say it again! I’m in the plumbing business and people think all we have in a job is labor and materials. That’s just a fraction of what it costs to operate! It’s expensive running a legit business

Yup, from what I recall, I was paying close to 36% of payroll in Workers Comp, and 11% liability for roofing labor. In another business I'm associated with, our plumbing noc ("not otherwise classified") is 4.5% vs. clerical for 0.12% of payroll for workers comp.
0 Reply
Kelvin Prince
Member since 2019 · 2 posts · 3 votes
4y
@Kimnee L.. I am a 18 year Business insurance agent in TN. I know here If a hired person doing work on any of your properties and you did not require proof of General liability if they cause physical damages and proof of Work comp if they get hurt on the job, you are totally liable.... All worker must be ask to show proof of GL and Wc insurance to protect yourself...
3 Reply
Matthew Olszak
Real Estate Broker · Chicago, IL · Member since 2015 · 1k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Benjamin Mcintosh:
@Matthew Olszak THIS
Anything you say can be used in litigation. The rule against hearsay doesn’t apply to your statements as a party to litigation.
And if you think this whole thread is totally irrelevant. And never coming into evidence… good luck with that. This whole thread reflects on credibility and intentions.

I experience supposedly innocuous statements being used against an insured frequently as a public adjuster. Folks call in a pipe leak as a flood, a sewer failure as a blockage, or state something like, "oh yeah, we knew there was a small leak in the roof for a few months but it didn't get really bad till this last storm". Then claim DENIED for failure to mitigate or some other reason under the policy. Sometimes the most innocent of [an always recorded] statement to an insurance company can lead to an eventual basis for denial. Folks forget that even their own insurer is in the business to make money, so they aren't looking to pay claims but rather find any reason to deny. Any posts like this and insured's statements can certainly lead to that.
Case in point when I learned about this early on. I was just staring in construction working for a GC. GC hired framing sub to add full 2nd floor to home during winter. Sub turned on water so they could use the toilets, but forgot to turn it off. Existing 2nd floor pipes burst over weekend and flooded house basement up to and over the 1st floor. Initially sub's insurance denied the claim stating the GC was responsible to provide portable toilet per OSHA regs. Eventually settled but GC spent mid-5 figures in attorney fees to get that. Insurers are NOT looking out for their insured's interests, they are looking out for their own rear-ends and those of their shareholders. So to expect that just telling it like it is to your insurance company and expecting them to go to bat for you is downright foolish. Always hire your own attorney and let the insurance company hire theirs in likely high $ situations like this.

4 Reply
William Coet
Lititz, PA · Member since 2013 · 595 posts · 272 votes
4y
Adults should be responsible for their own actions. Hopefully he will have some personal dignity and not come after you, but there may be other problems you have to deal with from insurers. Not sure.. Best of luck to you both
1 Reply
Billy Smith
Shawnee Mission, KS · Member since 2016 · 719 posts · 313 votes
4y
Hope he is ok first act professional ask how he is doing etc. Then get into the topic of his insurance, did you sign a contract if so, read the fine print. If no contract you need to find out the answer to the question asking him, does he have insurance to cover this accident when he is able to talk would be the most logic step. If he says no insurance and is unable to pay the bill hinting you are liable then hire a lawyer ASAP.

Yea LLC can be cracked buy simple checking paper work

Personal umbrella insurance typically won't protect you from any liability that arises in connection with an oral or written contract you've entered.

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Bruce WoodruffPro Member
Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Allen L.:

Bruce, you mentioned self employed do not need workers comp. So what if that person gets injured on the job, who’s paying for his medical?

They are.

0 Reply
John UnderwoodPro Member
Investor · Greer, SC · Member since 2014 · 13k+ posts · 17k+ votes
4y
Originally posted by @Kimnee L.:
He had severe internal bleeding. Unable to communicate. Need to have his scalp sawed in half for surgery. Just very bad:(
I do have an umbrella insurance--3.5mil.
I don't understand why I am responsible for his injury in the manner described above. I know I am responsible for asking him to check the roof and possibly work on it. We never agreed on the price. He brought another person who actually went on the roof and fixed it. He fell before even getting on the roof. In fact, this friend fixed(fixed) the roof without me knowing what type of damage and the cost of the repair.

Any update on the guy's condition?
0 Reply
Wale LawalBusiness Member
Real Estate Broker · Houston | Dallas | Austin, TX · Member since 2018 · 5k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y
I think you've been advice well on the form. Talk to your insurance and get a lawyer immediately. Please keep us posted on his condition.
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Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
4y
All we are hearing is advice about insurance and lawyers. No idea if the 'tenant' is even alive. I can feel my leg being tugged on. Anybody else?
0 Reply
Eric Gerakos
Investor · Costa Mesa, CA · Member since 2016 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
Tragic. FYI incubation is for infants. Intubation is an endotracheal tube in the trachea to maintain a patent airway.
0 Reply
Kar Sun
Member since 2021 · 402 posts · 277 votes
4y
Handyman should have his own insurance. He assumes risk when he climbs roofs. My tenants are required to carry liability coverage on their tenants policy in the amount of $500k
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