Rental Property Investor · San Diego, CA · Member since 2022 · 40 posts · 26 votes
Hi Folks,
I've heard investing in the inner city and low income/high crime areas is horrible, but I'm here to ask either how you've made it work to be successful, or exactly what kind of nightmare you've had?
I've been considering trying to BRRRR in the inner city in several cities in the Midwest (KCM, STL, MKE, CLE) and I live out of state. I've spoken to many local very experienced and saavy agents/PMs who caution against it due to to the amount of headache involved with low income areas and the crime, dangers and risk that come along with it. Specifically that good PMs will refuse to manage rentals in the inner city, and contractors will refuse to bid your job.
While this is excellent and sound advice, can anyone share if this has happened to you or you've found a way around it, and offer any additional reasons/showstoppers that make this a bad strategy - or offer how investing in low income areas have been a home run for you?
If I were willing to give it a shot anyways and learn from experience, I'm wondering what other huge negatives there may be that I haven't discovered thus far and how likely I'd be to recover from my mistakes. Clearly I'm pretty risk tolerant and hoping I can make it pay off - posting here to gain your collective wisdom!
Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2019 · 185 posts · 205 votes
4y
Hey, James. I've split my 4 unit portfolio between 2 low-income long-term rentals in Detroit and 2 high-en STRs in Vermont.
All in all, I have been happy with my 2x long-terms in Detroit, but the headaches are real and definitely eat into your cashflow. The key thing to consider is that your projected returns in your pro forma are always going to be too high for low-income, so while it seems like you're getting great returns for low cost to acquire, they never net out so well because of high repairs and maintenance and lost rent.
In one property, I bought it vacant and put brand new builder-grade everything in it. This place was by no means fancy, but was on the nicer-end of what most tenants are used to in the area. I was able to get a Section 8 tenant in there who has never missed her portion of the rent, but once a month, my PM has to go in there to repair something for at least $85. Things are always breaking there because she and her family are just harder on the house than a B-Class tenant would be. I put a brand new range/oven in there right before she moved in, and I walked the property 10 months into her lease. The oven door was split down the middle like she peeled the outer door away from the inner door. How does that even happen? I had to replace it because it's a safety hazard, and she agreed to pay for it incrementally over time, but it's going to take me 3 years to recoup that cost. A fugitive ran through her backyard and while nothing happened, she asked for a flood light to be installed; a reasonable request, which I did at ~$300. The rent at the time of both of these was $850, so all in, those two things were well over 1 month's rent.
My other Detroit property, my tenant just stopped paying and stopped returning calls and messages from the PM. We took her to court and she didnt show up. The case got postponed by the judge for 3 months. Then one day, she just up-and-left in the dead of night without a word. The ironic part was that she would have qualified for Section 8 and we would have done all the paperwork for her, but nope, she'd rather just not pay anything and not get the State to cover it for her. I lost 8 months of rent before she left. Now I am renovating for 7 weeks. I will have ultimately lost about 10 months of rent with little recourse.
Net-net, these properties have appreciated a ton and when my new tenant is in, I will be grossing $2250/month total for the two, but dang. Not a day goes by I dont wonder if I'd prefer half the net income for friendly nice tenants that pay on time, and dont rip the oven door like a tin of sardines...
If your willing to be hands on and do repairs and work yourself it can be a good investment. If you cant, it can be a nightmare.
Even so, you gotta deal with showing up and finding a body in the alley next to your house. Running over there at night with your pistol and going in the house because the police aren't available.
As I said before, there are a LOT easier ways to make money......
Realtor · Boulder, CO · Member since 2016 · 3k+ posts · 5k+ votes
4y
@James Brewer we sold our one property that could be considered “inner city” (and Denver isn’t a rough town at all compared to many, even the worst parts aren’t bad compared to cities on the coasts or the rust belt). On paper, it should have had the best returns of all of our properties by far but in reality it performed the worst by far. What kept it from reaching its potential was higher turnover (from issues beyond our control like tenants dying from overdoses, bed bug outbreaks from someone bringing in a mattress that spread throughout the building, gang activity scaring people away, loud and abusive tenants causing issues, stabbings, shootings and kidnappings at the property, etc.). This building wasn’t even Class D, I’d call it C- on purchase and as we completed our value add and kicked out the riffraff we improved it to C+. However the issues persisted due to not being able to convert the whole neighborhood around the property into a place that would attract good tenants and keep them there. It’s hard to screen tenants well when none of the applicants have good credit, good jobs, good references, clean records etc. that you want because if they did they wouldn’t be choosing to live in that neighborhood. The building also had tons of deferred maintenance and hidden issues. After a bunch of years doing this I’ve found that spreadsheets can be deceiving. Our best returns have come from the properties that had less cash flow on the spreadsheet and our worst returns came from the ones with the best cash flow on the spreadsheet. I even live within an hour of all of our properties, started off self-managing everything as well as doing all the turnovers, maintenance and repairs myself. Even the plumbing, roofing, you name it. If I had been out of state, we would have lost so much money on the one property mentioned above that we sold. Or we would have had to just not do what needed to be done and let it fall further into disrepair, which is what a lot of landlords do and that’s why these types of buildings often have so much deferred maintenance. You can make money on these properties but you have to be willing to deal with tenant issues all the time and also be okay with your property being in bad condition. The low rents don’t justify keeping up on all the cap ex and increased damage from the way tenants treat their units. For example I would rehab a unit, get it really nice and then have to do it all over again in 6 months when the tenant died in there from an overdose and trashed the unit before they died getting wasted with their “friends”. In order to make money I would have had to do the bare minimum to the units and just ignore a lot of the problems. Not for me and we’ve gotten much better returns from other buildings with lower cap rates in better locations that have had much better appreciation, steeper rent increases, less cap ex, maintenance and repair issues, property management fees (I no longer self manage everything) etc. and require so much less brain damage to own and operate. That’s why the golden rule is “Location, location, location!” I recommend buying the worst property in the best location you can afford, and improving that property up to the median standard for the location. We’ve made the most money when we’ve done this, regardless of the projected cash flow on the spreadsheet.
Three condos in downtown Denver, and look someone else said Denver doesn't really have issues like major other cities. We get travelers who are here to indulge in the marijuana in the summer. Other than that living in the building and doing most of the repairs my self made it a great investment. I don't know how they would get lots of contractors due to elevator and busy building restraints. That was the bigger problem with trying to renovate, and the fact the HOA wanted to know everything and would pause work if they messed up the halls.
You want to talk to @James Wise here. This guy can tell you some serious horror stories about the Cleveland area. There's a lot of money to be made in C class and below housing, but as @Jill F. said you are going to work for it.
I grew up in one of these areas and I can't imagine what it would have been like to own the properties. In the apartment building I lived in, the super lived in the basement so the owner at least had someone on-site to deal with the constant issues. I remember two fire-escape break-ins in our apartment (we lived on the 4th floor), roach and rat infestations, and lots of the general chaos that goes on between neighbors of low socioeconomic strata. And I was in a better building; mine was luxury apartments when it was built in the late 19th century (I lived on Park Avenue!) with a massive lobby, inlaid tile, turned staircase, etc. We were just 8 apartments, 2 on each floor, 4 floors. The buildings behind mine were federal projects that were 7 or 8 floors and maybe 4 times the number of tenants in each building. Those kept the cops busy.
To answer your question on how do you determine the housing class and expected tenants? It's nuanced at that point and you really need experienced local people on the ground to steer you right. You generally don't go into anything less than C without a gun or posse of people around you. Talk to the local police precinct people in the areas you want to invest and you'll find out pretty fast where they won't go without backup (or at all).
Investor · Fort Washington, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
I'm not sure what the term inner city represents in this discussion but I have been doing class D for 15 years. I'm currently selling some off but still I have them in multiple so called inner city regions. My generalized description is not 100 percent classless and destructive individuals with no jobs or credit. My generalized definition of the inner city is not some place I'm afraid to drive in, full of gang bangers, gun shots or tenants who die from drugs. I've had my share of horror stories but have achieved tons of success and profits as well. One of my low income families are the best tenants I have ever had in my entire history of investing. They have never ever been late with any payment for years. It's there on the 1st every month. They are very clean, respectful and treat my unit like it is their personal property. I've had a few section 8 tenants that were very good as well. If anyone has ever listened to a Dr. Joe podcast you will discover that 100 percent of his tenants are section 8 and come from class d communities where he puts them in thriving communities. I have a Masters degree and I lived in the inner city. I have never over dosed, shot someone or car jacked an old lady. I'm actually afraid to ask what the definition is since in DC these so called lawyers, doctors and professionals are gentrifying areas like Anacostia and Congress Heights in SE DC. In essence, many people are highly successful in this space and part of it is understanding and respecting it. If there are several people who say they navigate these environments without all these horrifying and despicable experiences, it would behoove you to consult with them. I have never met an investor who is emphatically successful in this asset class to have all these generalized descriptive assessments of the term inner city, let alone tell another it can never work. If done right it can be a substantially rewarding power move.
@James Brewer we sold our one property that could be considered “inner city” (and Denver isn’t a rough town at all compared to many, even the worst parts aren’t bad compared to cities on the coasts or the rust belt). On paper, it should have had the best returns of all of our properties by far but in reality it performed the worst by far. What kept it from reaching its potential was higher turnover (from issues beyond our control like tenants dying from overdoses, bed bug outbreaks from someone bringing in a mattress that spread throughout the building, gang activity scaring people away, loud and abusive tenants causing issues, stabbings, shootings and kidnappings at the property, etc.). This building wasn’t even Class D, I’d call it C- on purchase and as we completed our value add and kicked out the riffraff we improved it to C+. However the issues persisted due to not being able to convert the whole neighborhood around the property into a place that would attract good tenants and keep them there. It’s hard to screen tenants well when none of the applicants have good credit, good jobs, good references, clean records etc. that you want because if they did they wouldn’t be choosing to live in that neighborhood. The building also had tons of deferred maintenance and hidden issues. After a bunch of years doing this I’ve found that spreadsheets can be deceiving. Our best returns have come from the properties that had less cash flow on the spreadsheet and our worst returns came from the ones with the best cash flow on the spreadsheet. I even live within an hour of all of our properties, started off self-managing everything as well as doing all the turnovers, maintenance and repairs myself. Even the plumbing, roofing, you name it. If I had been out of state, we would have lost so much money on the one property mentioned above that we sold. Or we would have had to just not do what needed to be done and let it fall further into disrepair, which is what a lot of landlords do and that’s why these types of buildings often have so much deferred maintenance. You can make money on these properties but you have to be willing to deal with tenant issues all the time and also be okay with your property being in bad condition. The low rents don’t justify keeping up on all the cap ex and increased damage from the way tenants treat their units. For example I would rehab a unit, get it really nice and then have to do it all over again in 6 months when the tenant died in there from an overdose and trashed the unit before they died getting wasted with their “friends”. In order to make money I would have had to do the bare minimum to the units and just ignore a lot of the problems. Not for me and we’ve gotten much better returns from other buildings with lower cap rates in better locations that have had much better appreciation, steeper rent increases, less cap ex, maintenance and repair issues, property management fees (I no longer self manage everything) etc. and require so much less brain damage to own and operate. That’s why the golden rule is “Location, location, location!” I recommend buying the worst property in the best location you can afford, and improving that property up to the median standard for the location. We’ve made the most money when we’ve done this, regardless of the projected cash flow on the spreadsheet.
Thanks Steve K I appreciate your insight what an excellent response!!
I'm not sure what the term inner city represents in this discussion but I have been doing class D for 15 years. I'm currently selling some off but still I have them in multiple so called inner city regions. My generalized description is not 100 percent classless and destructive individuals with no jobs or credit. My generalized definition of the inner city is not some place I'm afraid to drive in, full of gang bangers, gun shots or tenants who die from drugs. I've had my share of horror stories but have achieved tons of success and profits as well. One of my low income families are the best tenants I have ever had in my entire history of investing. They have never ever been late with any payment for years. It's there on the 1st every month. They are very clean, respectful and treat my unit like it is their personal property. I've had a few section 8 tenants that were very good as well. If anyone has ever listened to a Dr. Joe podcast you will discover that 100 percent of his tenants are section 8 and come from class d communities where he puts them in thriving communities. I have a Masters degree and I lived in the inner city. I have never over dosed, shot someone or car jacked an old lady. I'm actually afraid to ask what the definition is since in DC these so called lawyers, doctors and professionals are gentrifying areas like Anacostia and Congress Heights in SE DC. In essence, many people are highly successful in this space and part of it is understanding and respecting it. If there are several people who say they navigate these environments without all these horrifying and despicable experiences, it would behoove you to consult with them. I have never met an investor who is emphatically successful in this asset class to have all these generalized descriptive assessments of the term inner city, let alone tell another it can never work. If done right it can be a substantially rewarding power move.
Thanks Mark for your very thoughtful insight!! I've had some of the same positive yet cautious thoughts and i'm glad to hear your position and from the experience you bring. Thanks!
Real Estate Broker · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2020 · 306 posts · 209 votes
4y
@James Brewer, I hope all is well with you and appreciate you asking this question.
I came from what people would call the "inner city" of Milwaukee, WI. It has not always been the best place to live but made me who I am today. Someone with a life's motto of "Raising the Standard of Living" for my tenants, clients, investors, and the communities I serve. The inner city is what it is due to lack of investments which creates opportunities for those residents. Some of the residents who do not take responsibilities for their lives, their families and where they live causes more damage for the whole then just themselves. Because some of these bad apples causes trouble doesn't mean we should turn our backs on the community as a whole. Some of these residents go to work everyday and pay their bills on time because of their pride to be a standup citizen.
Growing up in this type of neighborhood teaches you how to survive and to not trust outsiders. If you are going to invest in these areas, go there and meet the people. Get someone on your team that knows the community and the people. Despite the drama, the people in these communities know what is going on in their community and if they know you are trying to improve their community they will look after you and your investment.
Don't turn your back on investing in a community that could use your investment to better the environment and other people lives. The greatest gift you could give to someone in the "inner city" is a home that looks like it should be in the suburbs. The smile on their face will be worth the investment.
Specialist · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
4y
In Milwaukee, I would strongly suggest that if you are an out of state investor, you stick with the areas that the top PMs manage in and stay out of the others but that's just my opinion.
I buy rentals on the northside of Milwaukee, mainly the same zip codes everyone else is buying in less, but we do have a rental in the suburb of West Allis and ironically the West Allis one is the only one having trouble paying the rent so there's that :/
Real Estate Syndicator · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2018 · 1k+ posts · 907 votes
4y
There is money to be made doing it, but you just have to be very cautious in your numbers. Budget for a ton of turnover and maintenance costs. Expect at least 10% of your tenants to not pay rent and thus having to incur eviction costs. If you can pencil a deal that works with doing all of that, then I say go for it..if you are up for the extra work.
@James Brewer, I hope all is well with you and appreciate you asking this question.
I came from what people would call the "inner city" of Milwaukee, WI. It has not always been the best place to live but made me who I am today. Someone with a life's motto of "Raising the Standard of Living" for my tenants, clients, investors, and the communities I serve. The inner city is what it is due to lack of investments which creates opportunities for those residents. Some of the residents who do not take responsibilities for their lives, their families and where they live causes more damage for the whole then just themselves. Because some of these bad apples causes trouble doesn't mean we should turn our backs on the community as a whole. Some of these residents go to work everyday and pay their bills on time because of their pride to be a standup citizen.
Growing up in this type of neighborhood teaches you how to survive and to not trust outsiders. If you are going to invest in these areas, go there and meet the people. Get someone on your team that knows the community and the people. Despite the drama, the people in these communities know what is going on in their community and if they know you are trying to improve their community they will look after you and your investment.
Don't turn your back on investing in a community that could use your investment to better the environment and other people lives. The greatest gift you could give to someone in the "inner city" is a home that looks like it should be in the suburbs. The smile on their face will be worth the investment.
Beleza,
Charles Anthony
Thanks Charles, this is really fantastic advice and an amazing perspective!
@James Brewer, I hope all is well with you and appreciate you asking this question.
I came from what people would call the "inner city" of Milwaukee, WI. It has not always been the best place to live but made me who I am today. Someone with a life's motto of "Raising the Standard of Living" for my tenants, clients, investors, and the communities I serve. The inner city is what it is due to lack of investments which creates opportunities for those residents. Some of the residents who do not take responsibilities for their lives, their families and where they live causes more damage for the whole then just themselves. Because some of these bad apples causes trouble doesn't mean we should turn our backs on the community as a whole. Some of these residents go to work everyday and pay their bills on time because of their pride to be a standup citizen.
Growing up in this type of neighborhood teaches you how to survive and to not trust outsiders. If you are going to invest in these areas, go there and meet the people. Get someone on your team that knows the community and the people. Despite the drama, the people in these communities know what is going on in their community and if they know you are trying to improve their community they will look after you and your investment.
Don't turn your back on investing in a community that could use your investment to better the environment and other people lives. The greatest gift you could give to someone in the "inner city" is a home that looks like it should be in the suburbs. The smile on their face will be worth the investment.
Beleza,
Charles Anthony
I have tried to invest in a "rougher" area -- the house got broken into several times, the furnace and water heater stolen, and I wound up having to sell at a loss. This is the ONLY time I have ever lost money on a property. Unfortunately, these "bad apples" you speak of really DO ruin it for everyone in the area. More people would invest in the area if they don't stand to lose thousands (or sometimes tens of thousands) of dollars.
Real Estate Agent · Little Rock, AR · Member since 2022 · 83 posts · 63 votes
4y
As a property manager that has managed units in Class D areas. It does not seem worth the headache. You are constantly repairing windows that have been shot out or running off homeless people. NO ONE wants live where they don't feel safe. High crime areas generally have longer days on the market and then you just end up getting crappy tenants. I just think its more trouble than its worth. Most PM's don't really want to do the vacancy checks and give it the attention it will need if its dangerous for them to go out to the property.
Rental Property Investor · Milwaukee, WI · Member since 2013 · 281 posts · 133 votes
4y
@James Brewer While I'm sure Milwaukee is not unique on your list, but the class of neighborhood can change from block to block. My only advise is if you invest in Milwaukee have someone from the area on your team.
I've heard investing in the inner city and low income/high crime areas is horrible, but I'm here to ask either how you've made it work to be successful, or exactly what kind of nightmare you've had?
I've been considering trying to BRRRR in the inner city in several cities in the Midwest (KCM, STL, MKE, CLE) and I live out of state. I've spoken to many local very experienced and saavy agents/PMs who caution against it due to to the amount of headache involved with low income areas and the crime, dangers and risk that come along with it. Specifically that good PMs will refuse to manage rentals in the inner city, and contractors will refuse to bid your job.
While this is excellent and sound advice, can anyone share if this has happened to you or you've found a way around it, and offer any additional reasons/showstoppers that make this a bad strategy - or offer how investing in low income areas have been a home run for you?
If I were willing to give it a shot anyways and learn from experience, I'm wondering what other huge negatives there may be that I haven't discovered thus far and how likely I'd be to recover from my mistakes. Clearly I'm pretty risk tolerant and hoping I can make it pay off - posting here to gain your collective wisdom!
Thanks!
Hi James,
I always try and choose decent properties. If I would not want to live in it then I do not expect my tenants to live in that kind of environment either. When I am looking for a tenant, I screen for good credit, background, references, and so on. I once had a tent though that did not have good credit but had great savings. The tenant paid me the full years worth of rent upfront. I think you just have to be smart about the property in which you buy and who you let rent.
Real Estate Agent · Tulsa, OK · Member since 2020 · 21 posts · 17 votes
4y
Every investment has a level of risk and reward. Hopefully, as risk increases, so does potential reward. Unfortunately, in my experience as a property manager who’s company is responsible for the management of nearly 800 residential units in central arkansas, I can tell you that investing in class D areas is a challenge for investors.
Sections of North Little Rock, for example, have been epicenters of some of the most first-hand horrendous risk scenarios playing out, such as:
A gang fight breaking out in broad daylight in the street in front of an 8 unit apartment we manage as our remodeling crew was there painting. Someone pulled an AK-47 out and started gunning people down, meanwhile bullets were spewing at the building where our maintenance staff were ducking for cover and on the phone with me scared for their lives. The police shows up after a few were dead, including someone dead on the investor’s property, and the man with the automatic weapon had been run over and killed by a truck.
In Little Rock, in a D area that is trying to become a B area, but has a long way to go, a lady decided she wanted to catch the trash cans on fire at the curb while full of trash. This burned down most of the picket fence in front of a property we manage, and almost reached the wood-siding house. Had the FD not shown up when they did, the house would have likely burned down. That lady, the day before, threw a molatov cocktail into one of our tenant’s cars at a property we managed just a block away. His car was completely burned, and exploded in flames. Using both these incidents, and tying them together, myself, the PD, and fire Marshall were able to get two ladies behind bars for arson.
A kid was playing with gasoline at his grandmas house in North Little Rock. He spilled gas everywhere along the side of the house, and somehow the house caught fire and burned down completely. I get a call from our tenant while I’m mowing my grass, and he is frantically telling me the house next door is burning down, and his house is caught on fire too (the house we managed). The house next door burned down completely. The house we managed was declared a total loss. Our contractor decided to buy it from my investor at a low price, and had to have the house rewired 3 times, because some crooks came in and broke through the plywood on doors and windows, and stole all the wiring to sell to the scrapyard, likely for drugs.
I was showing a property to a disabled veteran in North Little Rock. Very much a D area. The veteran was wheelchair bound, and was mostly paralyzed in his legs. He was just so excited that we finally found a place he could live. I was excited to show him the place, too, since it was a difficult property to fill. As we walk in, my heart sinks. I see that all the wiring has been stripped out of this house. I see that they cut into the cage housing the window hvac unit, and removed the unit, climbed in the window, and ripped out all the electrical conduit. I immediately told the hopeful veteran that he would not be able to live here for at least a few weeks until it was rewired. He was so sad, and I was too. I had to call the owner of the property and tell him what happened. Talk about a difficult conversation to have.
These are just a few of my personal experiences managing properties in solid D areas. These accounts don’t mention the possums climbing through subfloors and terrorizing a family, trudging through human and dog and cat fecal matter left behind by a tenant who was evicted, getting bitten horrendously by fleas, and encountering squatters hidden in back corners of houses.
There are reasons that experienced investors and contractors and property managers will try to suggest you avoid investing in D areas.
Yes to what Brock said. Investing in the inner city is ACTIVE INCOME :)
@Rebecca Knox , LOL and Thank You , I plan to borrow that quote.
@Mark Cruse challenge and crisis breed opportunity, this will always be true. But the majority aren't fit to seize it.
@Charles Clark social impact is both altruistic reward and Good Deeds we take with us.
@Nicholas Baker Wood , your post needs to become MUST READ for any class D MF investor
Would this one additional dimension help gauge likelihood of success, Namely: what is society doing to improve the lives of Class D neighborhoods? (1) GOVT: How is local county/parish government investing in free libraries, job events, community youth athletic and education events? (2) Business: How is any business excluding Pawn Shops, Payday loans, and strip clubs investing in these communities? (3) NGO: How are non-profits participating in Job skilling, youth athletic and education events ?
No matter how philanthropic is class D investor, no one can do it alone. How likely is success if other members of society, namely GOVT, Business, and Non profits are not pulling up the class D neighborhood ?
I've heard investing in the inner city and low income/high crime areas is horrible, but I'm here to ask either how you've made it work to be successful, or exactly what kind of nightmare you've had?
I've been considering trying to BRRRR in the inner city in several cities in the Midwest (KCM, STL, MKE, CLE) and I live out of state. I've spoken to many local very experienced and saavy agents/PMs who caution against it due to to the amount of headache involved with low income areas and the crime, dangers and risk that come along with it. Specifically that good PMs will refuse to manage rentals in the inner city, and contractors will refuse to bid your job.
While this is excellent and sound advice, can anyone share if this has happened to you or you've found a way around it, and offer any additional reasons/showstoppers that make this a bad strategy - or offer how investing in low income areas have been a home run for you?
If I were willing to give it a shot anyways and learn from experience, I'm wondering what other huge negatives there may be that I haven't discovered thus far and how likely I'd be to recover from my mistakes. Clearly I'm pretty risk tolerant and hoping I can make it pay off - posting here to gain your collective wisdom!
Thanks!
I’m in late 30s. I’ve grinder the last 18 years and worked hard at my W2 to make a high income so I can invest difference and go “passive”. Im all about the Class A and B areas. Pass on C And D. I dont Need more stress added. Rather go as passive as possible in rentals and better areas tends to have better tenants who care about credit score, sure cash flow sucks, but frankly, if you’re a buy and hold investor with time on side, appreciation will happen and you can increase rent on back end.
now, if you don’t have a demanding W2 have at it. I just Hate working hard as I’m burnt out and want to engineering myself layoff already. Hope this is helpful.
