Disgruntled tenant turning hostile

Disgruntled tenant turning hostile

Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes

My ex tenants are suing me twice the amount of retained security deposit for damages. I had sent them a list of itemized deductions (hardwood floor damages $1600, utilities - water, sewer, trash, and electricity $370, and $95 cleaning fees) and remaining security deposit $3600 check within 15 days. In addition, I also sent a letter describing the damages, & photos of evidence. Yet they mailed me a demand letter that they wanted their entire deposit back. In response to that letter, I sent a certified mail letter describing in detail the nature of repairs, and reasoning for all deductions. I have now received court summons in small claims court for twice the amount of their initial demand!

Then I received a letter from the City notifying me of a home inspection! 

Here are a few questions I have:
1) Why did the tenants NOT acknowledge my certified mail letter with detailed reasoning of deductions? They have filed stating I did not provide any reason for deducting their money!
2) What evidence can these tenants have to prove they didnt cause these damages? or that they dont have to pay for utilities - water, electricity they used, or $95 cleaning fee? I had sent them a certified mail showing a move-in condition checklist signed by them stating no wood floor damages, photos of damages when they moved out, and local floor expert recommendations that this is NOT normal wear and tear. I am trying to understand what makes these tenants think they can get away with this?

It seems to me these tenants are very hostile, and they've demanded they want their twice their entire security deposit back no matter what damages, cleaning or utilities they used when they were staying in my home. They have also become hostile and complained to the City about my home. What do you suggest I tell the judge in 15 min?

I've had many tenants in many properties over several yrs, & no issues

Thanks much!!

1Reply
51 views

Most Popular Reply

Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
4y

As far as the City inspection goes do not agree to let the inspector in! There is currently no evidence of any unsafe or uninhabitable living condition, and you allowing them entry only gives them an opportunity to find one. So while that may eventually be the way you get that issue to go away I would first work to discuss it with the inspector and question the need for them to inspect. The complainant isn't even residing there any longer, so what benefit would this inspection provide? 

I can almost guarantee that they will provide a local ordinance stating the right to inspect etc, but that doesn't require you to provide entry. If they want to inspect they eventually will need a court order and lacking any actual evidence beyond a former residents complaint they'll drop this. I have a friend who had a similar issue with a neighbor and after about 3-4 months the City dropped the request and closed out the investigation as having no evidence for the claims. 

See this reply in the discussion

38 Replies

Jump to latestLatest
  • Bjorn AhlbladPro Member
    Investor · Shelton, WA · Member since 2017 · 6k+ posts · 6k+ votes
    4y

    @Misha Gounder welcome to BP. Have you been issued a summons to appear in court? If so get a lawyer to look after this for you. If you have not been summoned then it is just noise and ignore it. As far as the City is concerned they have probably heard this stuff before and may send out an inspector if they so choose.

    It sounds like you followed the rules with the timeframe and the return of their portion of the security deposit. Vindictive tenants are rare but disturbing when it happens. Don't let them ruin your day. All the best!

  • Nathan GesnerBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Cody, WY · Member since 2010 · 28k+ posts · 41k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Misha Gounder:

    My ex tenants are suing me twice the amount of retained security deposit for damages. I had sent them a list of itemized deductions (hardwood floor damages $1600, utilities - water, sewer, trash, and electricity $370, and $95 cleaning fees) and remaining security deposit $3600 check within 15 days. In addition, I also sent a letter describing the damages, & photos of evidence. Yet they mailed me a demand letter that they wanted their entire deposit back. In response to that letter, I sent a certified mail letter describing in detail the nature of repairs, and reasoning for all deductions. I have now received court summons in small claims court for twice the amount of their initial demand!

    Then I received a letter from the City notifying me of a home inspection! 

    Here are a few questions I have:
    1) Why did the tenants NOT acknowledge my certified mail letter with detailed reasoning of deductions? They have filed stating I did not provide any reason for deducting their money!
    2) What evidence can these tenants have to prove they didnt cause these damages? or that they dont have to pay for utilities - water, electricity they used, or $95 cleaning fee? I had sent them a certified mail showing a move-in condition checklist signed by them stating no wood floor damages, photos of damages when they moved out, and local floor expert recommendations that this is NOT normal wear and tear. I am trying to understand what makes these tenants think they can get away with this?

    It seems to me these tenants are very hostile, and they've demanded they want their twice their entire security deposit back no matter what damages, cleaning or utilities they used when they were staying in my home. They have also become hostile and complained to the City about my home. What do you suggest I tell the judge in 15 min?

    I've had many tenants in many properties over several yrs, & no issues

    Thanks much!!


    You are getting too emotionally involved here. 

    You followed the law in application of the deposit and provided proper notice. If the Tenant disagrees, I give them one chance to appeal my decision and provide evidence that they were not responsible for the charges. I also let them know that another review may result in additional charges. I decide the appeal and send them notice that my decision is final. I do not respond to any additional attempts to contact me. If they still feel I've wronged them, they can take me to court and I'll prove my case in front of a judge.

    They're trying to pressure/harass you into giving them money back. Just ignore them. If they file in court, decide whether it's worth negotiating a settlement out of court or defending yourself. I'm a pro at documenting things, so I will always defend myself because I know I'm right, I can prove it, and I believe in justice. If you're shaky or stressed, you may just settle and get rid of them.

    The DIY Landlord Book4.7248 Reviews
  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Thanks for the welcome and response!! Yes I received court summons for February 2023. The city also has an inspector coming out to the home in 3 days. Just got their letter and unfortunately there are repairs scheduled where no one can walk through so I will have to ask them to reschedule 

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    These tenants are vindictive it seems and any suggestions to deal with this is appreciated!

  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    As far as the City inspection goes do not agree to let the inspector in! There is currently no evidence of any unsafe or uninhabitable living condition, and you allowing them entry only gives them an opportunity to find one. So while that may eventually be the way you get that issue to go away I would first work to discuss it with the inspector and question the need for them to inspect. The complainant isn't even residing there any longer, so what benefit would this inspection provide? 

    I can almost guarantee that they will provide a local ordinance stating the right to inspect etc, but that doesn't require you to provide entry. If they want to inspect they eventually will need a court order and lacking any actual evidence beyond a former residents complaint they'll drop this. I have a friend who had a similar issue with a neighbor and after about 3-4 months the City dropped the request and closed out the investigation as having no evidence for the claims. 

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y

    I have been to SC Court a couple dozen times. It is not a big deal. The Judge usually favors the Contractor/Business over the regular person, because the Businessperson has their paperwork, photos, contracts, etc all in order, whereas the other person is usually going on emotions and gets upset in court...Judges really don't like that.

    Just be polite, business-like, and have all your paperwork in order. Get there early. Make 3 copies (you/Judge/Plaintiff) 

    And maybe let the City Inspector see the house as it is now, so they can see the damages caused by the tenant....

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Thanks @Bruce 

    @Bruce Woodruffundefined

  • Rental Property Investor · Los Angeles, CA · Member since 2017 · 2k+ posts · 5k+ votes
    4y

    Small Claims: I cannot stress enough having all your paperwork together and in quick and easy to find order. When the judge asks you if you notified the tenants about the deductions, you want to instantly have a copy of the letter, proof of mailing, and proof of delivery clipped together. When the judge asks how you came up with the deductions, you want your pictures of damage, estimates, and receipts for everything clipped together and a sheet totaling all the costs. You 100% need to provide proof of value of damages. Clip everything together, not staple, as the courts will likely have you place each page on a projector for everyone to see. 

    One thing to consider, the repair of their damages took time when the unit couldn't be rented. Consider countersuing them for that lost rent. You may find that when the tenant realizes they have more to lose, they might just go away. 

    Home Inspection: I would not piss off the home inspector. They can make your life hell. What do you think is the better approach, meeting the inspector and apologizing that they had to come out and waste their time because a disgruntled ex-tenant who trashed the place is unhappy you're billing them for the repairs or screaming at the inspector that you know your rights? I literally had an inspector point out something that wasn't up to code and would result in a failed inspection tell me, by the time I get back to my office I'll probably forget about this. Maybe he just didn't care or maybe he said that because I was nice and respectful to him?

    You say you have repairs scheduled for the same day. I assume you have permits for those repairs. 

  • Theresa HarrisPro Member
    Member since 2019 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    4y

    You have the documentation, just stick to the facts and don't get personal or emotional.  Some people aren't happy when they don't get their deposit back even though there are legitimate reasons.

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Thanks @Greg M.

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y
  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    You did not mention how you came up with the damage costs? Are these your calculations or are they actual estimates from a contractor?  Its not easy to get written estimates in the short time that you must notify tenants of their deposit status. But that short 3 week period requires the reason you are withholding the tenant deposit. It sounds like you gave the reason, did you also include copies of the receipts and estimates as required by law? A calculated guess of damages (without a contractor estimate) MAY be insufficient. This is Washington.  Good luck. 

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Thanks @Henry T. I gave them an estimate from a licensed contractor within 15 days. The estimate also noted that the scratches were NOT normal wear and tear and that the home should be vacant for 4 days during the repairs. My new tenants moved in the next day, and we acknowledged that the floors were damaged. The repairs got scheduled for Jun 27-30 when the new tenants vacated, and also based on the availability of the licensed contractor. So I will only get a receipt on June 30th. FYI I also got 2 more estimates that all stated the same thing, and let my tenants know I had reached out to over 10 flooring companies. 

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    I think you got it covered and you'll be ok. Stick to the facts and your documentation. Since you're already in court, countersue if the damages exceed their deposit.

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Hey guys, thanks for the responses. I spoke with an attorney who kind of scared me. He said I was good with the small claims court documentation but when he heard that the tenants had complained to the city about the home not being up to code, he said that these tenants are out to get you and claim two years of back rent  if the city finds any code violation. It seems that the new laws in California since 2020 are extremely tenant friendly that they view the landlord as a suspect. He advised me to hire an attorney to settle with these tenants out of court. He also said if I were you I would get out of the residential landlord business in California, and do a 1031 exchange for a commercial property OR hire a property management company right away so that any future tenant communications are through the company 


    does anybody have a referral for a good landlord lawyer in San Francisco area? I am a bit disappointed that in spite of doing everything by the book, the laws may be stacked against me!

  • Drew SygitBusiness Member
    Property Manager · Royal Oak, MI · Member since 2012 · 12k+ posts · 9k+ votes
    4y

    @Misha Gounder DON'T PANIC!!!

    This is a normal part of the business. How you've been a landlord for several years and never dealt with this already, leads me to believe you're not being aggressive enough with your damage charges:)

    As others have said, go to court as prepared as possible - which is sounds like you already are.

    You're other option, although I'm not familiar with California legal requirements, is to put pressure back on the tenants by hiring an attorney to escalate this from Small CLaims Court to District Court. Your attorney will then represent you and tenant has to either hire their own attorney or try to represent themselves - which rarely goes well.

    P.S. I think many of the responders missed the fact that you've already received a Court Summons. Don't ignore it.

  • Bruce WoodruffPro Member
    Contractor/Investor/Consultant · San Diego / Phoenix · Member since 2021 · 12k+ posts · 15k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Misha Gounder:

    He also said if I were you I would get out of the residential landlord business in California, 
    does anybody have a referral for a good landlord lawyer in San Francisco area? I am a bit disappointed that in spite of doing everything by the book, the laws may be stacked against me!

    Dude, you moved to that State and knew that they were left leaning, right? You probably even voted for the people that are making these laws. Don't complain now.
  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y

    Don't let some attorney freak you out. Before all of this, did your tenants send you notices that there were code violations? Is there a paper trail? Or did they raise these  complaints AFTER starting their damage deposit small claim case?

    Its easy to get worried whenever one looks at the multitude of BS laws. Stay focused.

    Do your small claims. Present the facts. One thing at a time.  Good luck.

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    Thanks guys for the responses! These ex tenants lived for about 2 years, and there were no violations filed during that time. They moved out March 31, and filed a small claims case Jun 14th. They also complained to the city on Jun 14 that the interior of the home was not built to code. @Henry 

    @Henry T. @Drew Sygit what do you think about counter suing them? I did not deduct for loss of 1 week's rent, moving furniture back, and cleaning after the floors were repaired as I was told by an attorney that these charges cannot be deducted from security deposit. What if someone let their current landlord know they have troublemaker tenants with a history? 

  • Member since 2022 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    4y
    Quote from @Misha Gounder:

    Thanks guys for the responses! These ex tenants lived for about 2 years, and there were no violations filed during that time. They moved out March 31, and filed a small claims case Jun 14th. They also complained to the city on Jun 14 that the interior of the home was not built to code. @Henry 

    @Henry T. @Drew Sygit what do you think about counter suing them? I did not deduct for loss of 1 week's rent, moving furniture back, and cleaning after the floors were repaired as I was told by an attorney that these charges cannot be deducted from security deposit. What if someone let their current landlord know they have troublemaker tenants with a history? 


    Counter sue? Only if your original statement to them exceeds their damage deposit.  It may be hard to convince a judge that you've found more things later on. All damages should be accurately in your first statement. If there are damages that you didn't notice before sending their statement you  could always try to add them, but you should have estimates and receipts.  And you don't want the appearance of piling on charges just because the tenants are jerks.  So you decide.
    And for what it's worth, judges seem to respect damages more when you have someone else do the fixes. That's my experience anyway.
  • Laveen, AZ · Member since 2016 · 584 posts · 528 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Misha Gounder:

    Thanks guys for the responses! These ex tenants lived for about 2 years, and there were no violations filed during that time. They moved out March 31, and filed a small claims case Jun 14th. They also complained to the city on Jun 14 that the interior of the home was not built to code. @Henry 

    @Henry T. @Drew Sygit what do you think about counter suing them? I did not deduct for loss of 1 week's rent, moving furniture back, and cleaning after the floors were repaired as I was told by an attorney that these charges cannot be deducted from security deposit. What if someone let their current landlord know they have troublemaker tenants with a history? 


     Youd want to consider how challenging it would be to collect on them if you won a judgment and if it's worth your while. 

    Yo had them sign an inspection checklist prior to moving in right (may have missed it) 

    Ask more than one attorney for feedback. The one you spoke to may be entirely correct and you'd be mad if you took the advice of other investors that were wrong. Attorneyshey are known  for scaring the hell out of people to get a retainer. If you do get an attorney Then yes a countersuit may be appropriate because the attorney will be expensive. 

  • Rental Property Investor · Boston, Massachusetts (MA) · Member since 2016 · 2k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    4y

    @Misha Gounder does the attorney who provides this advice specialize in landlord tenant law? Doesn’t sound like it from the “get out of dodge” advice. Get one who does.

    Seems like you have been thoughtful and careful and are in good shape.

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y

    @Jonathan R McLaughlin yes this attorney specializes in tenant landlord cases. When I asked about next steps, he said that if I wanted to retain him I should meet with him as soon as possible with a complete file of the case and my checkbook. His fees will be $3000 - 10,000 depending on how much back-and-forth with the tenants. Also told me to reschedule the city inspection right away

    I’m planning to call at least two more attorneys on Tuesday morning for some perspective, before taking any next steps.

  • Property Manager · Bay Area-Greater Sacramento · Member since 2021 · 94 posts · 51 votes
    4y

    @Misha Gounder my only concern for what you've charged is potentially taking into consideration when the floors were installed and how many years the tenants were there. One example would be if carpeting has been destroyed by the tenant but the carpeting was already 8 years old. In this case, no allowance is really appropriate as the floor coverings were due for replacement after the tenant moved out anyways. If these floors were already beyond their life span you might be in jeopardy of that charge not being justified. 

    The utility charges are justified as long as you only charged up until the day you received the home back, and cleaning is of course justified if you have clear evidence of how the home looked prior to them moving. Ie. a move-in inspection with photos. 

    I apologize if any of this has already been mentioned in the thread! Feel free to connect if you have more concerns. 

  • Member since 2021 · 17 posts · 7 votes
    4y
    Quote from @Kelsey Bailey:

    @Misha Gounder my only concern for what you've charged is potentially taking into consideration when the floors were installed and how many years the tenants were there. One example would be if carpeting has been destroyed by the tenant but the carpeting was already 8 years old. In this case, no allowance is really appropriate as the floor coverings were due for replacement after the tenant moved out anyways. If these floors were already beyond their life span you might be in jeopardy of that charge not being justified. 

    The utility charges are justified as long as you only charged up until the day you received the home back, and cleaning is of course justified if you have clear evidence of how the home looked prior to them moving. Ie. a move-in inspection with photos. 

    I apologize if any of this has already been mentioned in the thread! Feel free to connect if you have more concerns. 

    Hi the floors were new hardwood floors and there were scratches left behind possibly by moving furniture improperly. That’s why multiple flooring guys said it’s not normal wear and tear. I have photos prior of move in and move out

Join the conversationCreate a free account to reply, vote on answers and follow this thread.