Advice Needed! Residential Tenant w/ a Daycare = Insurance Headache! Help!

Advice Needed! Residential Tenant w/ a Daycare = Insurance Headache! Help!

Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes

Hello Bigger Pockets Real Estate Aficionados... Got a nice juicy one for you here... Hoping someone with better knowledge/experience than me will be able to help out and advise...

SCENARIO

We just recently acquired a fully-rented residential triplex in New York where one of the tenants operates a small "Family-Group" Daycare center out of her apartment. She also lives there, in one of the bedrooms which she shares with her child. She appears to be duly licensed for childcare but has NO Business Liability Insurance (or even Renters Insurance). (Crazy right?)

We currently have 'residential' insurance on the property but we're not sure that they would carry the policy if they knew about the daycare. (They never asked so we didn't tell). We're concerned that if they find out they will cancel their coverage. If we were to get proper coverage including the daycare, fully-disclosed, it will cost double at least! (An extra $2,000!) Not only that, but g-d forbid if there is a calamity tomorrow they could very conceivably try to not honor any coverage due to the daycare.

The tenant's lease was amended to allow her to operate a daycare but also explicitly forbids any activity which is likely to increase Insurance premiums and so is a little contradictory. Her lease is also up in approx 60 days from today.

Here's what were thinking (please pipe-in if you agree/disagree) : In order for this scenario to be fully kosher :

1.) The tenant would have to Immediately Procure Business Liability (and ideally renter's) Insurance and add our LLC which owns the property as the additional named insured

2.) We would need to immediately cancel our current 'improper' insurance and procure a new policy where the daycare is fully disclosed, even if it costs us a lot more $$$. (Read: $2,000 +++)

HERE's THE PROBLEM:

We're worried that the tenant will not be able to afford all of these new costs.

The Liability Insurance will likely cost her minimum $1,500 out-of-pocket and then we of course would not wish to "eat" the additional insurance cost so will have to pass this cost along and bump up her rent by at least approx $150 - 200 per month.

She may not be able to swallow it. We would then be forced with the ugly, distasteful and unfortunate dilemma of kicking out (or at least trying to) a very nice single-mother & child (who happen to be not-horrible tenants) during winter-cold February PLUS inconveniencing all the mothers who bring their 3 month olds to that particular daycare.

This is not a pretty situation.

If it comes down to an 'eviction' it could get ugly (it's one thing to evict a drug-dealer but another altogether to evict a single mom&child with daycare babies...!) and of course, we could be out several months of rent + legal fees while we wait...

Ideally, the previous owner would never have agreed to allow a daycare into his building, but that's not the situation we're in right now...

Do we have the right to immediately demand that she procure Liability Insurance and add our LLC as Named-Insured? Do we have the right - either legal or moral right - to ask her to pay increased rent since our insurance will double?

How should we handle this? Shall we just wait until lease renewal before dealing with this? Any ideas? Tips? Advice? ALL FEEDBACK WELCOME! Any other alternate options we didn't even think ok?

ALL COMMENTS NEGATIVE, POSITIVE or otherwise are invited. PLEASE, DON'T HOLD BACK....

Thanks!

Jay aka "Brooklyn"

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Most Popular Reply

Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
12y

Being nice will cost you , tell it to straight up , she needs to get insurance .

See this reply in the discussion

49 Replies

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  • Investor · Clairemont, CA · Member since 2011 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
    12y

    Yes, yes and yes!!! Deal with it today so she has time to adjust if necessary, don't wait until she's under the gun at lease signing and spring this on her suddenly. Absolutely pass those costs on to her as increased rent, simply due to the increased liability to yourself if nothing else. And absolutely require her to procure the proper insurance she needs.

    Honestly this may truly be a lower financial impact than you think. Say your insurance cost goes up $2000/yr and she has to pay $1500/yr. So $300/mo if she watches 4 kids their cost of daycare may have to go up by $75/mo assuming that she's under market, if not then she needs to figure out what she can cut.

  • Joel OwensBusiness Member
    Moderator
    Real Estate Broker · Canton, GA · Member since 2010 · 15k+ posts · 11k+ votes
    12y

    A in house day care is only allowed usually to have a limited amount of kids per the state. They charge less than typical daycares. The rent per unit you get a little more say 50 a month. If the daycare raises rates to much they will not get the kids and the tenant might move to another property.

  • Severna Park, MD · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 7k+ votes
    12y

    Being nice will cost you , tell it to straight up , she needs to get insurance .

  • Detroit, MI · Member since 2009 · 114 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    Not sure if you have Safeco/Liberty Mutual out there but they offer a home policy with daycare exposure. It varies by state so maybe not. The cost with Liberty Mutual may be the same amount you are paying now.

    If not, try to find a very large indepedent agent in your area. A small agency may not have access to the same amount of carriers or have the same influence over a company that the big guy does. Try three of those. They should be able to shop you through a general agent like Bliss and Glennon or Burns and Wilcox also. They have some markets that can help you.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    12y

    Thanks! This is veryhelpful! I definitely need Insurance leads in NY for carriers that will underwrite a residential property with a daycare! (how can there not be right? There must be 5,000 daycares in NY! And its such an important service to the community and to parents!)

    Anyway, were finding it very difficult to convince an insurance co. to take this at a reasonable price.....

    Please pass along any NY landlord insurance leads you have that will accept a daycare! (I'm thinking maybe I should post a formal request for leads in the marketplace???)

  • Structural Contractor · Coral Springs, FL · Member since 2008 · 29 posts · 8 votes
    12y

    Daycares in NYC are regulated by the deparment of health and hygiene. There are strict guidlines for the operation of daycares. If your tenant is not following the rules then this becomes your liability especially if it is in the lease.

    These things are never an issue until they are an issue. I have a colleague who is a DOHH inspector and they perform spot checks. They find too many kids, operators hiding extra kids outside in the cold, not enough space for activities and the list goes on. They eventually get shutdown. The point I am making is that your business model is based on owning a property and collecting rent and hopefully cashflow. If there is a flaw in the model be it legal or financial, the model is unsustainable.

    So, if your tenant is not legit (ie insurance) then this poses a flaw in your model so you need to remedy it ASAP before one of the many NYC agencies blindsides you and deals with it for you.

    If this tenant is "very nice" then you should ask her to present the appropriate documentation for operating in your building and this should not be an issue. Advise her that you are being pressured (by your insurance) to provide evidence of the daycare's coverage since they are also a tenant. You need to call DOHH and find out what the rules are so you know them. Ignorance is not an excuse. Like I said, it isn't an issue until there is an issue.

  • Rental Property Investor · Upstate, NY · Member since 2012 · 3k+ posts · 3k+ votes
    12y

    @Michael G.

    sent you a PM

    good luck

  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Personally, I would not take on the hassle of this scenario. I'd stop the daycare activity and put stipulations in all agreements/leases that the unit is for residential use only. I explain to my tenants that that includes getting prior permission to even have garage sales.

  • Dallas, TX · Member since 2013 · 4k+ posts · 744 votes
    12y

    @Michele Fischer,

    I am shock that your tenants need permission to have a 1 or 2 hour garage sale.

    Joe Gore

  • Real Estate Consultant · Camarillo, CA · Member since 2010 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    Not holding back. This should have been caught and evaluated during your due diligence. You're fortunate that the lease is up in 60 days. It could have been for a year or two. You could have a property that is uninsurable with a lease that you would need to break. I don't know all of the legalities but you could have had a messier situation than you already have.

  • Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes
    12y

    No way would I allow home daycare in my lease. No way. No.

    I would not renew her lease. Good tenant or not, kids damage stuff, and it's huge liability, and she and you have NO valid insurance on this.

    What if a kid drowns in the tub? Or jumps off the couch playing and gets injured? What if a kid is allergic to peanut butter and something happens? What if a biological parent tries to take a child? You seriously never know what could happen.

    My leases forbid home businesses. It's residential use only.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    12y

    Thanks all for your valued feedback. Mucho appreciated.

    @Jeff Greenberg... Dispense with the formalities... the truths in life are dishes served cold...thanks!

    Anyone see any creative options?

  • Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes
    12y

    Don't renew their lease when their lease term ends.

    Update your new lease that any new tenants have to strictly ban home businesses and daycares.

    Get insurance on your property!

  • Colorado Springs, CO · Member since 2012 · 39 posts · 12 votes
    12y

    Have you asked her if she has insurance? Usually she must show and maintain proof of insurance in order to keep her daycare license. Most daycares must maintain extensive records, including financial and must send them in monthly or quarterly.

    What's the hurry? If she shows you proof of insurance and her lease is up soon, why not wait? Will her lease go to a month to month? Why not set up a time to introduce yourself and talk to her? Don't just stop in-- she is busy watching the kids and will be distracted. She will probably welcome a chance to talk to the new owner. If her lease is not going to be renewed, she will be losing her home AND she will be losing her business, career and income.

    If insurance is your only concern with this tenant, ask to see proof. This is not a babysitter, but a professional daycare provider and small buisness-woman. The day cay can be inspected at any time and has a very strict guidelines. A lot of people do not go through the licensing procedures-the fact that she did says a lot about her. She has been fingerprinted and has gone through background checks

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    12y

    Susan -

    I agree - That's what makes this such a hard decision! This is a very difficult position.

    Furthermore, she does NOT have insurance, but we have asked her to procure it ASAP - will wait and see if she delivers. But it does make us question her willingness to cut corners... The problem is more nuanced than you realize...

    She cuts corners in other areas as well - She is in default on her lease on several of the terms (the only tenant with no deposit, stores numerous items large & small in the shared basement without paying rent and she causes problems with the neighbors (more than any of the other tenants.) She carries an air of entitlement and lack of appreciation for her situation that rubs the wrong way... If she cuts corners on her Lease, god knows what corners she cut in her business.

    But, like I said, on the other hand, we don't want to be lumped in with those who would boot a mom, her daughter & her childcare babies...

    But, on the other hand, if the building is literally uninsurable due to her daycare, what can we do? Not worth it to risk $1,000,000 in order to earn a couple thousand a month....

    Like I said.... Very difficult spot...

    Any other solutions? We'll consider any reasonable suggestion ....

    We were thinking about giving her a temporary 3-4 month extension on her lease (a new 4 month lease effectively) which would give her time (a total of 6 months from today) to relocate in an orderly manner...

    What do you kind folks think?

  • Investor · Houston, TX · Member since 2011 · 209 posts · 56 votes
    12y

    Agree with @Account Closed

  • Detroit, MI · Member since 2009 · 114 posts · 40 votes
    12y

    Well Im not an attorney nor do I play one on tv....but, There is something very glaring in your last post. You recognize that this tenant is not meeting her obiligations to you, the state of NY, or to the parents if she is not carrying insurance, or taking space in your building that she is not paying for. Her "air of arrogance" is more opinion than any contractual issue so Ill pass on that. Once you are aware of her not meeting her contractual obligations and allow it to continue, you become part of the problem. You cant turn a blind eye when you admit you are fully aware of her actions. So you as a business must demand your contractual obligations be met. To not do anything is to suggest consent on your part.

    Just a thought.

  • Lender · Winlock, WA · Member since 2013 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    As an agent on the left coast I must say what we always think about concerning our clients welfare. Therefore I must put you in the claim.
    OK, something happens and one of the kids get hurt and is pemanently damaged or has a life long injury because of the event. The parent will start by looking to your tenant and the business, but they will find no insurance. They then will look at you and your insurance. Your coverage may pay to the extent of your liability coverage, or they may deny the claim? The injured party will also look at the daycares assets as well as your assets. They will file suit against you and take your assets. You were fully aware of the situation and didnt demand coverage or evict the tenant.
    Basically put, are you willing to lose everything you have worked hard for over the years, all because she didnt comply with your requests for coverage and you didnt enforce the requirements. Thats what your really saying here, she doesnt have adequate insurance coverage, so therefore I'm going to allow her to risk everything I have because she cant pay the additional costs. Personally I wouldnt take on that risk?
    She has to realize that there are costs of doing business, and that if she intends on making her living in this way, she also needs to run it professionally and pay the costs to protect those kids, families and you from the liability that she has taken on.

    Just my opinion.

  • Garberville, CA · Member since 2011 · 193 posts · 6 votes
    12y

    It sounds like you have a decent relationship with your tenant. Why not try to approach it together? You are considering getting a different policy vs telling her she needs to get a policy. Why not work with her? Being in daycare she is in a position to ask other people in that trade what they have for insurance as you are doing by asking other investors. It sounds like you can share information and perhaps come to something you can both work with sooner. It's possible she can get a better deal than you through government funding or some sort of insurance set up for daycares in NYC,. The sooner you have a heart to heart with her the better as she will need time to research it as well.

  • Michele FischerPro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Seattle, WA · Member since 2013 · 2k+ posts · 1k+ votes
    12y

    @Shawn Dandridge you may not like my landlording style, but do you need to be so rude about it? You have no idea what my situation is, and I'm just offering my perspective to help another landlord.

    @Account Closed all of my rentals are in a low income area I am working to revitalize. If asked, I would grant permission for two full days a month of hosting a garage sale. Why I want it addressed and restricted is because the neighborhood has plenty of perpetual garage sales that don't get torn down even though the goods are soggy with pacific northwest rain. It makes the proeprty and neighborhood look terrible.

  • Member since 2011 · 798 posts · 216 votes
    12y

    You've already that your building is UNINSURABLE with her there.

    Insurance is HUGE! You could lose EVERYTHING you've worked for now and years to come. EVERYTHING. Huge, huge liabilities with daycare... and you have NO insurance on the building!

    I could NOT renew her lease. She has NO insurance. And, your property is uninsurable! Her childcare kid could accidentally knock over a candle, your building burns to the ground, and is worth $0 now... and you have no insurance and have to pay decades of a mortgage with no building standing! No, no, no. Don't let her stay if your property is uninsurance. Give her a deadline about the insurance. Don't mention your insurance. Say it's a policy there.

    I don't allow home businesses. Never have, never well... and no way in a million years would I let a tenant run a home daycare. Let alone an uninsured home daycare on a property that has zero insurance.

    If she buys her childcare "business" insurance, will your property then be insurable?

  • Investor · Milford, CT · Member since 2012 · 592 posts · 285 votes
    12y

    I vote for the same as most said. Get her to stop the illegal home business or do not renew her lease. I personally would not want this occuring in any of my properties. Just too big of a liability.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    12y

    Everyone: Thanks so much for your valued input and opinions. I really appreciate it!

    Latest update: Yesterday the daycare bought General Business Liability Insurance ($1mio/$2mio) with my LLC as the additional named insured. So now I feel a wee bit better as this is my first line of defense. I am now frantically seeking an insurance policy for the building at a reasonable cost with the daycare fully disclosed. I have 3 different brokers working on this and am hoping for good news this week.

    So now the question is: SINCE she now has liability insurance with me as named insured, and, IF we are able to procure decent building insurance at a reasonable cost, THEN: Should we STILL not renew her lease?

    I have a feeling I know where most of you all will fall on this question, but nonetheless I am curious to know your thoughts...

    Please share your opinions... all input welcomed.

    Thanks!

    Brooklyn R.

  • Roy N.Pro Member
    Rental Property Investor · Fredericton, New Brunswick · Member since 2013 · 7k+ posts · 4k+ votes
    12y

    @Michael G.

    As a named insured, verify with the insurance provider that you will be notified of any changes or deficiencies with the policy.

    This way, your tenant cannot cancel the policy in 3-months w/o you becoming aware.

  • Rental Property Investor · Brooklyn, NY · Member since 2013 · 272 posts · 165 votes
    12y

    @Roy N.

    Thanks. What do u think. Renew or not renew?

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