Rental Property Investor · TX · Member since 2019 · 236 posts · 392 votes
Hello All. Input please. After 15 of years of using a Realtor to fill my properties, I feel I want to move forward without the persons help any longer. Main reason why is sloppy work, poor communication and flippantness (i know this is person specific and not a jab at Realtors, but it has made me think I may want to try this myself). Here are the pro's / con's that I can think of:
cons: -no access to mls comps or listing (I know I can manually add listings to zillow, realtor.com etc.) -I'll have to screen out all the scammers and undesirable candidates (plan to avoid craigslist) -I'll have to show properties -candidates using a Realtor won't be able to contact me since I'm not a Realtor and don't want to be. -no access to advice that was poor to begin with ( I think the advice is better on this site TBH). -time consuming.
pros: -save ~5000/yr in commish -control of documents that I have had to go over word for word anyway due to poor work.
Thoughts? again, no jab to the wonderful Realtors out there, but would like input from other investors that manager their own applicants. I am in the Dallas market where demand is quite good. I also have a full time job outside of a handful of properties.
Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2019 · 90 posts · 41 votes
3y
I have three rentals and have rented two of them out by myself. (Third one already had a tenant when I purchased the property). It’s been pretty easy for me. I just list it on Zillow and pre screen applicants by sending them questions and send them a background check after. I use a lease template from avail.co. I’ve never met one of my tenants who signed a year lease this past December. They were ok with me sending videos and pictures of the property. I use locks with a keypad so no need to keep track of keys.
Real Estate Broker · Coppell, TX · Member since 2011 · 5k+ posts · 4k+ votes
3y
#1....change realtors.
#2....I'm probably biased, but I think the best renters use realtors. The ones that have issues normally don't have realtors working for them. When we run into the people with issues, we sent them direct to you without the middleman, so they can sweet talk you into taking them. The people with 3 giant aggressive dogs...I just tell them up front normally none of my owner clients will take them, so they need to find the rent by owner.
#3....what lease contracts are you going to use? The two main ones in Texas are the TAR lease and the TAA lease. TAR is invalid if not written by a TAR member (license required) and thou e TAA you have to be a member to use their lease. So then you are left having to use some other lease and from what I've seen, most really are not that good. For example the TAR and TAA leases get continually updated every so often as new tricks are found by 1000s of people using them. The one off form you get online or thru your attorney is often 1 person's work probably without all the input and legal advice from the state experts.
#4 Maybe not your realtor, but I am investor myself, network with lots of investors, attend all kinds of trainings for the latest PM and lease training and see plenty of leases from other realtors for my tenant clients. I try to share best practices with my clients to get better leases and better tenants. I think I often get them better tradespeople too, for example that don't want to replace your HVAC unit every time you call for a checkup. I've saved my clients a ton of money with great trades and other resources.
#5 I think you do cut out a lot of potential tenants....and maybe the best ones. I'm never looking on any of the public sites like Zallow. I'm using the MLS as I can save my tenant clients a ton of time when they come to look. Chances are we could see 10 properties in a morning or afternoon when they are here on that short visit to find a place. Them trying to schedule on their own with 10 owners and since no one answers probably takes 30-40 phone calls or think of getting 30-40 text messages from 10 different owners saying they can't meet at 10am, can we do it at 11am, or I'm running late can we meet at 12noon, or I'm working and can't show before 5pm and trying to schedule all those...nightmare for the tenant.
#6 As a realtor we have access to all kinds of other forms that have been tried and tested besides the lease. Early termination, deposit deduction and return, renewal, inventory and condition, pet addendums, service animal information, etc. If you have to go create those on your own with your attorney, that might cost you the $5000 you save.
Not to say you can't do all this on your own, but i think your answer is to switch realtors vs doing it on your own. I think doing it on your own probably just adds risk and is a time suck if you're working a full time job.
Investor · Jacksonville, FL · Member since 2019 · 90 posts · 41 votes
3y
I have three rentals and have rented two of them out by myself. (Third one already had a tenant when I purchased the property). It’s been pretty easy for me. I just list it on Zillow and pre screen applicants by sending them questions and send them a background check after. I use a lease template from avail.co. I’ve never met one of my tenants who signed a year lease this past December. They were ok with me sending videos and pictures of the property. I use locks with a keypad so no need to keep track of keys.
Sure you can get lucky and get great people in your place doing it yourself...doing everything over the internet and never even meeting them. Sometimes making them jump thru a few hoops can solve a lot of problems. Personally I've found the worst applicants come thru Zallow and the best thru other realtors....the good corporate clients...the busy professionals, etc. The people who are way too busy to be looking at rental ads.
Honolulu, HI · Member since 2008 · 3k+ posts · 2k+ votes
3y
Aloha,
There is much more to properly managing a property than simply "filling" it. Are you crystal clear on local Security Deposit rules? How do you handle applications and background checks...are you familiar with the Fair Credit Reporting Act? Do you know what common EPA violations in your area might be, and the cost if you are found in violation? Are you aware of local Fire Codes, building codes, trash ordinances, rental restrictions, and other laws that you will be expected to follow? Are you VERY familiar with Fair Housing Laws, including the handling of Assistance Animals? If you are hiring workers for cash, or unlicensed, are you familiar with OSHA rules and worker's comp laws? Do you have a pretty thorough understanding of construction in general, and all of the relevant sub systems- electrical, plumbing, and HVAC? How are you with accounting that will stand up to IRS scrutiny? If someone else is going to be handling the accounting, do you understand double entry accounting and how a "chart of accounts" is used? Are you prepared to provide 1099's to all of your vendors? How/where will you continue learning about changes in national and local laws that affect your business; new products; new "best practices"?
So much of what a quality PM brings to the table is knowledge...that will keep you out of trouble and save you expensive fines and repairs.You would be well advised to search out a new PM that can do the job right. A couple lessons in the school of Hard Knocks will quickly obliterate any savings from pocketing the "commish". A significant part of our business is from small owners that are simply overwhelmed and have zero systems/procedures in place, they just have been "shooting from the hip" for a few years and are fed up with the problems they have literally created for themselves. There simply is no "app" for this.
I used Cozy (which was later bought out by Apartments.com) to advertise and screen applicants for my first rental. I then used Apartments.com to lease out my second rental. They advertise and provide background checks and credit checks, paid for by the applicant. The website can also generate lease documents. It worked well for me.
Investor · Member since 2022 · 186 posts · 155 votes
3y
@Keith A. I had the same question and I'm in the middle of listing and renting out a property! Previously, I rented out two other houses myself -- things went like a breeze.
I think the key question are 1) what's the profile of your target audience, 2) are people moving into or out of the area?
So question to you: where is the property, and is it low, mid, mid-to-high or high end? If you have to work a lot with low income/credit applicants, then doing it yourself will be tough. Otherwise, a lot easier.
I disagree that high quality renters always go through agents. Many of them search the listings themselves and have it done quickly and directly. On the other hand, many low quality renters use agents as it is also more difficult for them to lock down a lease.
Also some interesting stats I saw in my current rental actively listed. It's in Houston area where people are moving into. - Zillow: 25 inquiries - All other: 3 inquiries
So the take away is if you list by yourself, do make sure zillow is turned on. I've ran into issues previously with 3rd party software.
Hope it helps! DM me if you'd like to exchange ideas.
Investor · Member since 2022 · 186 posts · 155 votes
3y
Echo @Account Closed's points about tenant screening etc. It's widely available and the most important step of leasing.
Some software for you to consider: Azibo (no listing yet. zillow is the way to go), Avail, Innago, Apartments.com (Cozy), Hemlane, Turbotenant, Rentredi, Tenant Cloud, eRentpayment, Zillow rental manager
There is much more to properly managing a property than simply "filling" it. Are you crystal clear on local Security Deposit rules? How do you handle applications and background checks...are you familiar with the Fair Credit Reporting Act? Do you know what common EPA violations in your area might be, and the cost if you are found in violation? Are you aware of local Fire Codes, building codes, trash ordinances, rental restrictions, and other laws that you will be expected to follow? Are you VERY familiar with Fair Housing Laws, including the handling of Assistance Animals? If you are hiring workers for cash, or unlicensed, are you familiar with OSHA rules and worker's comp laws? Do you have a pretty thorough understanding of construction in general, and all of the relevant sub systems- electrical, plumbing, and HVAC? How are you with accounting that will stand up to IRS scrutiny? If someone else is going to be handling the accounting, do you understand double entry accounting and how a "chart of accounts" is used? Are you prepared to provide 1099's to all of your vendors? How/where will you continue learning about changes in national and local laws that affect your business; new products; new "best practices"?
So much of what a quality PM brings to the table is knowledge...that will keep you out of trouble and save you expensive fines and repairs.You would be well advised to search out a new PM that can do the job right. A couple lessons in the school of Hard Knocks will quickly obliterate any savings from pocketing the "commish". A significant part of our business is from small owners that are simply overwhelmed and have zero systems/procedures in place, they just have been "shooting from the hip" for a few years and are fed up with the problems they have literally created for themselves. There simply is no "app" for this.
Richard I have not used a realtor for most of what you are describing. OSHA, workers comp, accounting, EPA etc have little to do with Texas rental Realtors and I wouldn't expect them to know such things. A property manager is out of the question, that seems like a true waste of money unless you hit hte jackpot with a truly good PM. I have a CPA for cashflow and there are several resources through BP for background and credit checks. Well, I think I'm leaning more towards trying to do this myself now :)
Rental Property Investor · TX · Member since 2019 · 236 posts · 392 votes
3y
Such great posts on here. Thank you all. I'm leaning towards doing this myself ONE time to see how it goes. I think it will be a learning experience by all accounts, but nothing wrong with that. I plan to use BP for additional direction when the time comes.
Has anyone that handles listing themselves ever had an agent reach out to them for a client, and if so did you offer them commission for bringing a quality tenant? In my parts that would be half the first months rent.
Real Estate Investor · Saint Paul, MN · Member since 2017 · 543 posts · 474 votes
3y
@Keith A. I did it myself for years with my properties. Easy to do, other than some time related to showings, and I never had a bad tenant. I screened them with a decent app, used Transunion for background checks. As others noted, Zillow is great for finding tenants.
Hello All. Input please. After 15 of years of using a Realtor to fill my properties, I feel I want to move forward without the persons help any longer. Main reason why is sloppy work, poor communication and flippantness (i know this is person specific and not a jab at Realtors, but it has made me think I may want to try this myself). Here are the pro's / con's that I can think of:
cons: -no access to mls comps or listing (I know I can manually add listings to zillow, realtor.com etc.) -I'll have to screen out all the scammers and undesirable candidates (plan to avoid craigslist) -I'll have to show properties -candidates using a Realtor won't be able to contact me since I'm not a Realtor and don't want to be. -no access to advice that was poor to begin with ( I think the advice is better on this site TBH). -time consuming.
pros: -save ~5000/yr in commish -control of documents that I have had to go over word for word anyway due to poor work.
Thoughts? again, no jab to the wonderful Realtors out there, but would like input from other investors that manager their own applicants. I am in the Dallas market where demand is quite good. I also have a full time job outside of a handful of properties.
I am a realtor now but have been an investor for much longer. You don't need a realtor to get this done but...you have to know what you're doing to avoid a bad tenant, an unenforceable lease (or has some vague parts) and the people skills (reading is an important one) to choose a good tenant.
You will also need the free time for showing and conversations with potential tenants. Dealing with the general public can be frustrating between rude, no shows and the financially unqualified. About two weeks ago, I had 6 showings in one afternoon for my LTR studio...3 were no shows, 2 canceled last minute and 1 didn't like it. If you think you can do and handle all that, I would do it yourself. I would avoid CL like you said and advertise it on Zillow and FB marketplace (I have gotten great tenants). Sorry for the longer post but just be mentally/emotionally prepared to deal with some non-sense on the way to finding a great tenant
@Keith A. I did it myself for years with my properties. Easy to do, other than some time related to showings, and I never had a bad tenant. I screened them with a decent app, used Transunion for background checks. As others noted, Zillow is great for finding tenants.
Agreed. Most rental manage software I know of offer transunion SmartMove Fri screening — same product, different skins.
Such great posts on here. Thank you all. I'm leaning towards doing this myself ONE time to see how it goes. I think it will be a learning experience by all accounts, but nothing wrong with that. I plan to use BP for additional direction when the time comes.
Has anyone that handles listing themselves ever had an agent reach out to them for a client, and if so did you offer them commission for bringing a quality tenant? In my parts that would be half the first months rent.
I learned this recently from a realtor but this may only represent a general rule.
When you list yourself, the default is you don’t pay commissions to either side unless you specify you will pay certain amount to the agent representing the tenants.
the caveat: many agents with clients won’t come to you as there’s no commission to be made. So they will only bring their clients to properties with commissions if that’s an option. As a result; you only access a subset of the market.
It won’t matter much if the demand is strong. As the end, you only need one good tenant!
#2....I'm probably biased, but I think the best renters use realtors. The ones that have issues normally don't have realtors working for them. When we run into the people with issues, we sent them direct to you without the middleman, so they can sweet talk you into taking them. The people with 3 giant aggressive dogs...I just tell them up front normally none of my owner clients will take them, so they need to find the rent by owner.
#3....what lease contracts are you going to use? The two main ones in Texas are the TAR lease and the TAA lease. TAR is invalid if not written by a TAR member (license required) and thou e TAA you have to be a member to use their lease. So then you are left having to use some other lease and from what I've seen, most really are not that good. For example the TAR and TAA leases get continually updated every so often as new tricks are found by 1000s of people using them. The one off form you get online or thru your attorney is often 1 person's work probably without all the input and legal advice from the state experts.
#4 Maybe not your realtor, but I am investor myself, network with lots of investors, attend all kinds of trainings for the latest PM and lease training and see plenty of leases from other realtors for my tenant clients. I try to share best practices with my clients to get better leases and better tenants. I think I often get them better tradespeople too, for example that don't want to replace your HVAC unit every time you call for a checkup. I've saved my clients a ton of money with great trades and other resources.
#5 I think you do cut out a lot of potential tenants....and maybe the best ones. I'm never looking on any of the public sites like Zallow. I'm using the MLS as I can save my tenant clients a ton of time when they come to look. Chances are we could see 10 properties in a morning or afternoon when they are here on that short visit to find a place. Them trying to schedule on their own with 10 owners and since no one answers probably takes 30-40 phone calls or think of getting 30-40 text messages from 10 different owners saying they can't meet at 10am, can we do it at 11am, or I'm running late can we meet at 12noon, or I'm working and can't show before 5pm and trying to schedule all those...nightmare for the tenant.
#6 As a realtor we have access to all kinds of other forms that have been tried and tested besides the lease. Early termination, deposit deduction and return, renewal, inventory and condition, pet addendums, service animal information, etc. If you have to go create those on your own with your attorney, that might cost you the $5000 you save.
Not to say you can't do all this on your own, but i think your answer is to switch realtors vs doing it on your own. I think doing it on your own probably just adds risk and is a time suck if you're working a full time job.
This is actually great advice, I am a realtor myself and still dont post my rentals to the MLS. In my experience though, the best tenants do seem to have a realtor!
Property Manager · Baltimore, MD · Member since 2014 · 1k+ posts · 1k+ votes
3y
One other thing to consider is to have documented tenant screening criteria that you apply evenly to all applicants. If you decline an applicants send them an email to state why, specifically. If you have multiple applicants that meet your criteria then offer a lease to the first one who applied. This is all to protect yourself in the case of a Fair Housing complaint.
There is much more to properly managing a property than simply "filling" it. Are you crystal clear on local Security Deposit rules? How do you handle applications and background checks...are you familiar with the Fair Credit Reporting Act? Do you know what common EPA violations in your area might be, and the cost if you are found in violation? Are you aware of local Fire Codes, building codes, trash ordinances, rental restrictions, and other laws that you will be expected to follow? Are you VERY familiar with Fair Housing Laws, including the handling of Assistance Animals? If you are hiring workers for cash, or unlicensed, are you familiar with OSHA rules and worker's comp laws? Do you have a pretty thorough understanding of construction in general, and all of the relevant sub systems- electrical, plumbing, and HVAC? How are you with accounting that will stand up to IRS scrutiny? If someone else is going to be handling the accounting, do you understand double entry accounting and how a "chart of accounts" is used? Are you prepared to provide 1099's to all of your vendors? How/where will you continue learning about changes in national and local laws that affect your business; new products; new "best practices"?
So much of what a quality PM brings to the table is knowledge...that will keep you out of trouble and save you expensive fines and repairs.You would be well advised to search out a new PM that can do the job right. A couple lessons in the school of Hard Knocks will quickly obliterate any savings from pocketing the "commish". A significant part of our business is from small owners that are simply overwhelmed and have zero systems/procedures in place, they just have been "shooting from the hip" for a few years and are fed up with the problems they have literally created for themselves. There simply is no "app" for this.
Richard I have not used a realtor for most of what you are describing. OSHA, workers comp, accounting, EPA etc have little to do with Texas rental Realtors and I wouldn't expect them to know such things. A property manager is out of the question, that seems like a true waste of money unless you hit hte jackpot with a truly good PM. I have a CPA for cashflow and there are several resources through BP for background and credit checks. Well, I think I'm leaning more towards trying to do this myself now :)
While I can certainly understand there are rural areas where "anything goes", that does not change the reality that most of the issues I raised have to do with Federal or State laws. Whether you hire a Realtor, or "manage" your properties entirely on your own is not particularly relevant, the law is the law, and NOT knowing, and at least attempting to follow those laws can, and will, adversely affect you WHEN something goes wrong. If you think OSHA, EPA, Fair Housing, Fair Credit Reporting, etc. do not apply to you as you conduct your Rental business, you are mistaken. A quick search shows actual offices for HUD, OSHA and the EPA in Dallas, so not that difficult for an irate tenant, prospective tenant, or injured handyman to initiate an expensive complaint...
Real Estate Agent · Houston, TX · Member since 2021 · 1k+ posts · 715 votes
3y
Zillow Rental Manager is a great option for landlords who want to take advantage of the larger audience that Zillow attracts. All of these programs come with their own unique features and benefits; it’s important to compare them before deciding which one is right for your business. Good luck
Property Manager · San Francisco, CA · Member since 2017 · 74 posts · 71 votes
3y
Hi Keith-
I run a traditional property management region and also a vacation rental firm in addition to managing my own portfolio of rental properties. In my experience traditional property management firms are not an area of the industry that breeds excellence. There are a few great ones in each region I think, but the business overall has high switching costs for the owner so doing the bare minimum (or less) is often the norm. On top of that the traditional property management business tends to favor firms that scale to lots of units under management which can lead to dilution of service and individual attention.
So if you don't have a lot of units to manage and have time on your hands you can absolutely do it yourself. Many owners do. Here is my take for what it's worth. I am in the San Francisco Bay Area, your mileage may vary.
1. For renting out apartments I don't see any need for MLS in my area and we don't use it except for high-end single family homes. Vast majority of our leads come through Zillow network (70%+). Craigslist is still a player here (lots of bad leads to filter out) and Facebook Marketplace is rapidly becoming a big lead generator esp. with age 35 and under demographic.
2. Vacancies will probably eat up the majority of your time. Make sure you have a way to take *excellent* photos and a good walk through video of your units. Make sure to include exterior shots of the building. COVID forced us into figuring out a way to do self-showings so depending on your comfort level you could allow that via pre-screening and a photo of the prospective tenants DL.
3. AI is becoming a big deal in property management (I know, I was surprised too). We use AppFolio as our management platform and we have an AI chatbot (called Lisa) as part of our subscription and although she has limitations she has been a game-changer for us in lead response and scheduling showings and post-showing follow-up. Lisa automatically engages with every single lead and answers questions about the property and automatically schedules showings based on a predetermined schedule. She replies 24/7/365 and prospective tenants are pleasantly surprised how quick and engaging she is. Most tenants do not know she is a bot. Not having this type of technology is probably the biggest downside to managing on your own unless you have enough units to justify an AppFolio subscription.
4. The second most time-consuming part of self-management will be repairs. If you have a good handyman and don’t have a lot of units you will probably be ok. But this part ican be difficult and complex if you have lots of units because at a certain point you need a software management system where tenants can submit their own repair requests and you can quickly email/text those to the handyman and also pay the handyman quickly via direct deposit.
5. You probably already know this but never rent to anyone when you have not run the credit score yourself via a service like Transunion Smartmove of similar service. Don’t take print outs or PDFs of credit scores they are very easy to fake.
6. Lease documents you sound like you have a handle on but if you don’t most regions have a local landlord association you can join for a nominal fee that has good attorney reviewed/court tested leases. But the best leases would probably be from the Texas Association of Realtors (TAR)
7. If you do end up coming back to find a professional management firm I would try to find one that handles vacation/short-term rentals in addition to traditional property management. You are likely to get a much higher caliber of firm because managing AirBnB type properties is a whole different ball game in a different league. Those properties are management intensive and require lightening fast response times and a staff of pros who are used to operating in that kind of high-touch, high-expectation environment.
